What are the best plywood guitars?

**Bill C** · 08-19-2015, 02:05 PM

a few laminate possibilities ...

Guild X and CE series
Cris Mirabella
Steve Holst

**nopedals** · 08-19-2015, 03:11 PM

I love my late 40s ES-150. Had it refretted after buying it. I think the extra inch is worthwhile for electric and acoustic tone. Such a simple and light guitar, it somehow seems smaller than a 17' guitar. I had an ES-300 some years ago, but funny thing, I like the neck on the ES-150 better. You just have to play them.

Patience counts. There was a '56 ES-125 on gearpage about a week ago for 1K (some non-original parts IIRC, but that's a nice target price). There was a really nice looking ES-300 on gbase for $2500 that was there for a month or so, but it is gone now. ES-300s are way cool; it is the guitar you hear on the guitar solo of rock around the clock.

Here is Chet Atkins unplugged on an ES-300:

**Groyniad** · 08-19-2015, 04:59 PM

i recently got a sadowsky LS17 - i'm very happy i did.

the late forties es 150 i had for a while - similar dimensions and material - worked pretty much as well as the sadowsky (but with the sound of the late forties built in)

the sadowsky jim hall i had was also excellent. it quickly made me happy to sell the early 50's 175 that i was convinced i'd never part with.

i also play carved top acoustic archtops - and i think, like the OP, i'm starting to prefer the laminate sound even when unamplified. its much quieter than the acoustic archtops of course - but it has a softer gentler attack which feels more inviting and friendly. the sound projects less strongly from it - and (i want to say) not quite so quickly - so it feels easier to control.

i think there's a strong connection to D'Aquisto's laminates (and so to Borys perhaps) with the sadowsky range. there's no doubt that the sadowsky jh captured something of the amazing sound of jim hall's D'Aquisto (not just something of the look).

the big decision with laminates is whether to go for the 175/125 scale length and body size, or the 350/Tal scale length and body size. i like the extra projection and brightness of the bigger one. my jim hall guitar felt under-powered acoustically compared to the LS 17.

**Jazzman301** · 08-19-2015, 06:40 PM

Late 50's Guild CE100s are great guitars that can be had for reasonable money. Vintage Guild X150s that are 17" are spruce tops maple back and sides all laminated. AWESOME guitars.

'Moe

**Chazmo** · 08-19-2015, 07:43 PM

I second Mr. Beaumont's nomination of the Godin Kingpin and all the 5th Avenue line. They sound jazzy and they maintain some acoustic tone, which is remarkable for laminates. The tops are really quite thin compared to a guitar like an ES-175. Ironically, that may not be a good thing if one is looking for a lot of "thunk," as Jzucker has talked about in other posts.

Guild X-150s are great buys. Guild's answer to an ES-175 and built like tanks.

**entresz** · 08-19-2015, 08:48 PM

I've got a Godin 5th Avenue with a floating Pete Biltoft CC pickup. That's a very good guitar, as close as you can get to an old ES125 for a fraction of the cost. The only thing about it that I don't like is the neck radius is fairly flat, and the frets are very small. Despite that, it is very nice to play.

**barrymclark** · 08-19-2015, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

That's a NICE Country Club that's up for sale.

It is indeed a VERY nice one.

**jorgemg1984** · 08-19-2015, 10:15 PM

I love my Godin but it sounds nothing like a Gibson... Also love my X500 - it also sounds different from Gibsons but delivers a great classic jazz sound. From clips / records only Sadowskys sound amazing.

**helios** · 08-19-2015, 11:15 PM

I agree that a Borys B120 is a great sounding and ergonomic laminate. Be prepared to pay $5000 for a new B120 Deluxe
however. I'd love to own one, but am priced out. Here's Pat Kelley playing his:

**jzucker** · 08-20-2015, 07:14 AM

the borys and sadowsky sound great but to me they don't have the thunk of a '50s plywood guitar.

Regarding the Godins...Not a fan.

Dutchbopper · 08-20-2015, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I finally realize that plywood guitars like the 175 and Barney Kessel speak to me more than the spruce top, carved archtops. So much so that I am selling my solid top guitars.

Just wondering about other plywood guitars and what else would be a good addition to my arsenal along with the 175 and Kessel ? Thinking about an ES300 or 125 or something?

I kind of feel the same. I have always wanted a vintage ply guitar like a 50s ES 175, ES 300 or ES 350. Or maybe a 60s 175 Tal or Barney Kessel.

I think I will be selling some guitars to finally get one.

The vintage ES 350 and Tal are way out of my price league though. I cannot imagine taking a 10k guitar to a 50 or 100 bucks gig or some jazz jam. I'd never want to own a guitar in that price range. It would end up as a couch guitar.

So 4K+ is max of what I am willing to spend. That leaves the BK and ES 300. Or maybe a 50s 175. The ES 150 may be nice too.

I owned a 125, which was nice but it's a very plain instrument. Sounded great though. Playability is a bit less than a 175. But it does not seem to bother MVI

I hope to be checking out a 1946 ES 300 and a 1963 Barney Keassel soon.

Knowing you, I'd stick to vintage ply Gibson Jack.

Regards,

DB (Dick)

**rpguitar** · 08-20-2015, 08:58 AM

There are definitely two schools of laminate archtop construction. The iconic and original Gibson kind, as extolled above, and the more stringy, acoustic kind that emerged (I think) with D'Aquisto's work for Jim Hall, which begat the various Sadowsky models. I'm sure I'm missing some key luthier in that second lineage, but regardless, those are the two general archetypes IMO.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-20-2015, 09:27 AM

History tells the story, for me. More iconic jazz tones made on Gibsons than anythimg, and many of them Gibson laminates. It's not just coincidence.

**jorgemg1984** · 08-20-2015, 09:36 AM

I agree Roger.. but to my ears Guilds are in between the Gibson and the Sadowsky sound.

**nopedals** · 08-20-2015, 09:59 AM

A lot of the vintage guilds laminates are 1 5/8 inch nut width guitars. I have owned a number of them because they offer a lot for the money, but have ended up moving them due to the neck profiles.

**Jim Soloway** · 08-20-2015, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

History tells the story, for me. More iconic jazz tones made on Gibsons than anythimg, and many of them Gibson laminates. It's not just coincidence.

Absolutely true but in the spirit of fully disclosure, most of those guitars were built from the 40's to the early 60's and bear very little structural resemblance to the laminate guitars Gibson built in most recent eras.

**vinlander** · 08-20-2015, 12:41 PM

Except the thickness of the laminate itself, are the structures so different lets say between a 1963 Tal and a RI of the 90s or 20xx ?
The wood has aged for sure and the original might have vintage PAF ?

**Jim Soloway** · 08-20-2015, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by vinlander

Except the thickness of the laminate itself, are the structures so different lets say between a 1963 Tal and a RI of the 90s or 20xx ?
The wood has aged for sure and the original might have vintage PAF ?

The thickness of the laminate is pretty big factor. When you compare the weight between guitars from different eras, the difference can be really substantial. The neck profiles are also often very different and in some instances, the woods used for the neck is also different.

**nopedals** · 08-20-2015, 12:51 PM

The thickness of the laminate is a big deal. I recall that when Sadowsky came out with his archtops at a price point well above other asian (they are made in Japan) archtops, he posted on RMMGJ about how much trouble he had had sourcing thin laminate plates. You really have to play an old one (or a Sadowsky); the difference is startling.

**jzucker** · 08-20-2015, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Absolutely true but in the spirit of fully disclosure, most of those guitars were built from the 40's to the early 60's and bear very little structural resemblance to the laminate guitars Gibson built in most recent eras.

i don't think anyone has said differently. I personally like the '70s, '80s && '90s gibson laminates like the 175s and Tal Farlows but they definitely don't sound anything like a '50s or '60s era laminate. For example, '63 Kessel has *IT*. The '90s Tal Farlow I had sounded good but sounds like a modern guitar. The '89 175 I have is a tweener. Doesn't have the '50s or '60s tone but sounds way better than the '00s era 175s IMO.

**jzucker** · 08-20-2015, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by nopedals

The thickness of the laminate is a big deal. I recall that when Sadowsky came out with his archtops at a price point well above other asian (they are made in Japan) archtops, he posted on RMMGJ about how much trouble he had had sourcing thin laminate plates. You really have to play an old one (or a Sadowsky); the difference is startling.

I think there's more to it than that. I have owned the sadowsky as well as the d'aquisto jazzline which its based off of. They both use the same plates. They sound nothing like a '50s or '60s laminate gibson. It's a totally different sound. The sadowsky is a fabulous guitar and I'd love to own one but it just does not sound like an older instrument. Same is true of the tom painter and steve holst guitars. They do not sound like old gibsons and their tops are even thinner than the sadowsky. And the eastman plywood guitars are similar. They have very thin tops but are bright and nasally to me.

So I have to disagree with you. It's not as simple as top thickness. What I noticed with the holst and painter is that they sound more like a carved top instrument than a gibson 175. If your goal is to make a more inexpensive guitar than a carved top which still retains some of the characteristics of a carved top guitar and has some feedback rejection, than you have met your goal. However, if your goal is to design a guitar which has the sound and vibe of a '50s or '60s gibson plywood instrument, the goal fails.

From the recordings of the Borys I have heard, it's a similar story except I think it does have some characteristics of the gibson plywood guitars. I still think it's a tweener instrument but I think it does a better job of capturing a '60s vibe than many of the other boutique plywood guitars.

**vinlander** · 08-20-2015, 01:15 PM

Was a 50s or 60s guitar sounding the same back then as they do now after aging.
Maybe the 80s, 90s and 00s will also benefit in some ways from time despite their thickness increase.
But for that I guess we need to wait a couple more decades...

**Groyniad** · 08-20-2015, 01:48 PM

i can't think of any jazz guitar greats playing non-gibson instruments.....???

except the later jh of course (and i don't quite count g.v.e. on a gretsch)

except the later p. bernstein (and benson i suppose - but when he was playing jazz he was typically playing a gibson (or d'a))

jazz guitar very very nearly equals gibson guitar.

the unusual jazz sound is not non-gibson - its gibson carved-top

**Greentone** · 08-20-2015, 01:50 PM

Roger has summed it up very nicely. Jorge is correct about Guilds being mid-ground. Those Guilds are very nice guitars. Joe Negri, who held down the gig at the William Penn Hotel, Pittsburgh, for years (and played Handyman Negri on "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood for as many years), played a cracking good Guild. It sounded awesome in his trio.

**jzucker** · 08-20-2015, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by vinlander

Was a 50s or 60s guitar sounding the same back then as they do now after aging.
Maybe the 80s, 90s and 00s will also benefit in some ways from time despite their thickness increase.
But for that I guess we need to wait a couple more decades...

Just listen to the recordings. They were playing new instruments back then. They jazz guitarists in the '50s and '60s were not cork-sniffers like we are today. They weren't seeking out the great guitars of the '30s & '40s. They were playing off the shelf instruments so I'd say that aging has little to do with it.