Was Wes Montgomery the first black guitarist to have his own signature instrument?

[Hammertone]

You guys have it all wrong.
It's like the little kid at the Sears photo studio looking at the shiny object while the photographer quietly grabs a few shots.
Just follow the money.

[rpguitar]

Living a life lamenting or being angered by past injustices will serve no one well. We live in the current time . . . not the past.

It is always infinitely easier for those not directly affected by injustice to make statements like this.

I am a member of another ethnic group that has been victimized by horrendous, genocidal injustice in history. It tires me, angers me even at times, to constantly be reminded of it. It's practically a cultural institution, not to mention a depressing burden.

And I agree that it is crucial to get up, cast away the shackles (figurative or otherwise), and move on - be a productive citizen. Make the world better. Live today.

However, it is also extremely important to not allow the painful truths of history disappear from the minds of the living, for as time marches on, facts are bent and the essence of the truth is even denied outright by those whose interests conflict with it. If it is forgotten and not taught, it will be repeated. This has happened many times before in history, and there's no evidence that modern humans will behave otherwise.

In second grade language: Forgive, but do not forget.

[Patrick2]

It is always infinitely easier for those not directly affected by injustice to make statements like this.

I am a member of another ethnic group that has been victimized by horrendous, genocidal injustice in history. It tires me, angers me even at times, to constantly be reminded of it. It's practically a cultural institution, not to mention a depressing burden.

And I agree that it is crucial to get up, cast away the shackles (figurative or otherwise), and move on - be a productive citizen. Make the world better. Live today.

However, it is also extremely important to not allow the painful truths of history disappear from the minds of the living, for as time marches on, facts are bent and the essence of the truth is even denied outright by those whose interests conflict with it. If it is forgotten and not taught, it will be repeated. This has happened many times before in history, and there's no evidence that modern humans will behave otherwise.

In second grade language: Forgive, but do not forget.

The horrors of what Africans had to endure when they were taken against their will from their home land . . . for no reason other than to benefit the sub-human greed of some people here in the USA and else where, will never be forgotten. It represents the absolute worst of any history of the USA. The times immediately following emancipation, and a few decades beyond were equally as dispicable. None of that will ever be forgotten by anyone.

I disagree that there is no evidence that modern humans will behave otherwise, if its intended as a broad general statement referencing all humans. I also disagree with "Forgive, but do not forget". To the vastly overwhelming majority of those alive today . . . there is nothing for which they need to be forgiven of. People living today do not carry the burdon of responsibility of something that happened 50 to 150 years ago.

We need to move on and continue to self correct, as we have been doing since January 1, 1863. Personally, I feel terrible for what has happen and for the people to whom it has happened. I'll do what I can [in equal fairness] to help in the correction of lingering racial bias. But, I feel absolutely no guilt what so ever for the past.

[Teddyfm]

Perpetual victimhood reopens old wounds.

I find that wording a bit weird to be honest. It suggests it some kind of selfappointed martyrdom. It also suggests that those wounds are not wholly healed. But hey, what would I know? I am just a Swedish guy living in Switzerland. Both countries have a pretty murky past and also have problems facing up what they did not that long ago.

Also Stringswinger, I find your playing delectable. Very nice tone and swing.

All the best to all of you.

Ted

[jzucker]

The horrors of what Africans had to endure when they were taken against their will from their home land . . . for no reason other than to benefit the sub-human greed of some people here in the USA and else where, will never be forgotten. It represents the absolute worst of any history of the USA. The times immediately following emancipation, and a few decades beyond were equally as dispicable. None of that will ever be forgotten by anyone.

I disagree that there is no evidence that modern humans will behave otherwise, if its intended as a broad general statement referencing all humans. I also disagree with "Forgive, but do not forget". To the vastly overwhelming majority of those alive today . . . there is nothing for which they need to be forgiven of. People living today do not carry the burdon of responsibility of something that happened 50 to 150 years ago.

We need to move on and continue to self correct, as we have been doing since January 1, 1863. Personally, I feel terrible for what has happen and for the people to whom it has happened. I'll do what I can [in equal fairness] to help in the correction of lingering racial bias. But, I feel absolutely no guilt what so ever for the past.

It's easy to say when you have equal access to the best schools, the best and safest neighborhoods, etc. Unfortunately, the reality of american life is that people are raised in what amounts to social castes. If you live in a poor, impoverished, inner-city neighborhood, you will have poor and run down schools with old, obsolete equipment and books, poor teachers - many of whom can't wait to get out of the ghettos and into better schools, pressure of a culture which punishes those who succeed in school, street gangs, drug pushers, pimps, etc., it's not so easy to forget about the past. Try succeeding in that environment!

I think it's easy for a white person to say that we should just forget about all that has happened in the past but we are living in the evolution of what we created with Jim Crow laws, slavery and racist attitudes.

[rpguitar]

I also disagree with "Forgive, but do not forget". To the vastly overwhelming majority of those alive today . . . there is nothing for which they need to be forgiven of. People living today do not carry the burdon of responsibility of something that happened 50 to 150 years ago.

Of course not. That's not what I meant by the phrase. Perhaps it was the wrong phrase. How about "Move on, but do not forget." We can't blame modern day Germans for the atrocities of the 1930s and 40s. Nor should modern American whites be blamed for decades of mistreatment handed to blacks in the USA.

However...

As long as there are some Germans who embrace and spread the neo-**** movement, and some American whites who continue to hate those of other races, we are not afforded the luxury of lapsed memory. And we must continue to teach the young, enlighten our ignorant neighbors, and remain vigilant. It's a burden... but it's reality.

This being said:
With regard to the actual thread here, I don't think it helps to ascribe ill intent when there probably is/was none. We can't be 100% sure, but the Gibson company doesn't seem to have been guilty of slighting black guitarists.

[wintermoon]

" We can't be 100% sure, but the Gibson company doesn't seem to have been guilty of slighting black guitarists."

correct, it's hard to say for sure, Wes won the Downbeat Polls in '61, '62 and '66, yet no Wes model.
perhaps since already suggested, it was because Wes favored the L-5CES which was already in production and maybe Gibson didn't feel a single p.u. version [which he prefered] would be commercially successful.

Jim Hall meanwhile won in '64 and '65 while he was plugging away on an early 50s single p.u. ES-175 and no Jim Hall model, possibly for the same reason.

I believe the Trini Lopez model was the last Gibson artist model introduced until maybe BB KIng in the 80's

[Hammertone]

I believe the Trini Lopez model was the last Gibson artist model introduced until maybe BB KIng in the 80's

And, along with the Dave Grohl model, the Trini Standard has been re-issued by the Custom Shop.
Big fat necks on both. All the Grohls I tried (sample of 3) were way heavier than the Trinis (sample of 2).
I want one of those Trinis! Oh, yeah!

[wintermoon]

"I want one of those Trinis! Oh, yeah!"

I guess there has to be someone....

;^)

[Stringswinger]

@Ted, Thanks for the kind words about my playing

You wrote: "I find that wording a bit weird to be honest. It suggests it some kind of self appointed martyrdom. It also suggests that those wounds are not wholly healed. But hey, what would I know? I am just a Swedish guy living in Switzerland. Both countries have a pretty murky past and also have problems facing up what they did not that long ago."

Indeed both your Country and mine have much to be ashamed of and much work to do, both in recognizing past wrongs and also in fixing unresolved wrongs. The horrors and injustice of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism and homophobia are and have been a stain on humanity. And the wounds of these injustices are far from healed as the injustices themselves are far from solved.

I think guitar endorsement deals have been more about clever artists and managers than anything else. I would bet George Benson has earned far more royalty checks on his endorsement deals than Harry Volpe ever did!

Cheers,

Marc

[Patrick2]

It's easy to say when you have equal access to the best schools, the best and safest neighborhoods, etc. Unfortunately, the reality of american life is that people are raised in what amounts to social castes. If you live in a poor, impoverished, inner-city neighborhood, you will have poor and run down schools with old, obsolete equipment and books, poor teachers - many of whom can't wait to get out of the ghettos and into better schools, pressure of a culture which punishes those who succeed in school, street gangs, drug pushers, pimps, etc., it's not so easy to forget about the past. Try succeeding in that environment!

I think it's easy for a white person to say that we should just forget about all that has happened in the past but we are living in the evolution of what we created with Jim Crow laws, slavery and racist attitudes.

"living in the evolution of what we created". So, all whites are now responsible for the plight of African Americans.?.?

This is pretty much what I was talking about when I posted that I was fearful this thread would take a turn for the worse. Also, do a better job of reading my posts if you intend to respond to them. I was very clear that we'd never "just forget about all that has happened in the past . . . ". Jim Crow laws were most specific to the southern states and abolished a century ago. Evil minded miscreants who still embrace such racism and bigotry do still exist . . . in small numbers and in isolated areas. They're constantly being identified and called out on it. But don't put the entirety of the plight of today's African Americans totally on the shoulders of white American society. That's just wrong.

So, would having Gibson introduce a Charlie Christian model signature guitar posthumously, serve to correct all of those past injustices? Hardly. So, why revisit it and talk about how terrible the guitar companies were to pass over any recognition of black jazz guitarists out of racism . . . especially when there's no factual evidence that's actually true? If CC was looking down at what the world of jazz guitar is today . . and the roll black artists are playing in it, as well as the recognition they're currently getting . . heck, the praise and aduration they're currently getting . . . he be smiling and proud as a peacock with its tail spread.

[Patrick2]

Of course not. That's not what I meant by the phrase. Perhaps it was the wrong phrase. How about "Move on, but do not forget." We can't blame modern day Germans for the atrocities of the 1930s and 40s. Nor should modern American whites be blamed for decades of mistreatment handed to blacks in the USA.

However...

As long as there are some Germans who embrace and spread the neo-**** movement, and some American whites who continue to hate those of other races, we are not afforded the luxury of lapsed memory. And we must continue to teach the young, enlighten our ignorant neighbors, and remain vigilant. It's a burden... but it's reality.

This being said:
With regard to the actual thread here, I don't think it helps to ascribe ill intent when there probably is/was none. We can't be 100% sure, but the Gibson company doesn't seem to have been guilty of slighting black guitarists.

Yep! I agree with all you've said in this post.

[2bornot2bop]

The horrors of what Africans had to endure when they were taken against their will from their home land . . . for no reason other than to benefit the sub-human greed of some people here in the USA and else where, will never be forgotten. It represents the absolute worst of any history of the USA. The times immediately following emancipation, and a few decades beyond were equally as dispicable. None of that will ever be forgotten by anyone.

I disagree that there is no evidence that modern humans will behave otherwise, if its intended as a broad general statement referencing all humans. I also disagree with "Forgive, but do not forget". To the vastly overwhelming majority of those alive today . . . there is nothing for which they need to be forgiven of. People living today do not carry the burdon of responsibility of something that happened 50 to 150 years ago.

We need to move on and continue to self correct, as we have been doing since January 1, 1863. Personally, I feel terrible for what has happen and for the people to whom it has happened. I'll do what I can [in equal fairness] to help in the correction of lingering racial bias. But, I feel absolutely no guilt what so ever for the past.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain

“Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it”
― Sara Shepard, Wanted

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

“Those unable to catalog the past are doomed to repeat it.”
― Lemony Snicket, The End

“He who doesn't understand history is doomed to repeat it.”
― Pittacus Lore, I Am Number Four

“Learn from history or you're doomed to repeat it.”
― Jesse Ventura

“It's been my experience, Langford, that the past always has a way of returning. Those who don't learn, or can't remember it, are doomed to repeat it.”
― Steve Berry, The Charlemagne Pursuit

“Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. You have to expose who you are so that you can determine what you need to become.”
― Cynthia A. Patterson

“He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.”
― Paul Christopher, The Lucifer Gospel

[2bornot2bop]

So, all whites are now responsible for the plight of African Americans.?.?
Jim Crow laws were most specific to the southern states and abolished a century ago.

this reflects the difficulty in any discussion of race. Non blacks typically feel they're being targeted and that the discussion is an attempt to make present day non blacks responsible for the actions of non blacks of the past. So in any discussion of race there's an immediate tendency on the part of non blacks to get defensive.

Jim Crow abolishment a "century" ago - How'd that work out?

Actually, by invoking the mention of "jim crow", if anything, you've just proved JZ's point, that in spite of the "abolishment" of Jim Crow racism continued unabated without restriction. We've progressed as a society, yes, but racism is still entrenched - Today.

Check the founding of Oregon, and it's status in the 50's, long after the abolishment of JC laws. Not the south....Oregon.

http://gizmodo.com/oregon-was-founde...pia-1539567040
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

[jzucker]

Hear, hear my friend. One who gets it!

this reflects the difficulty in any discussion of race. Non blacks typically feel they're being targeted and that the discussion is an attempt to make present day non blacks responsible for the actions of non blacks of the past. So in any discussion of race there's an immediate tendency on the part of non blacks to get defensive.

Jim Crow abolishment a "century" ago - How'd that work out?

Actually, by invoking the mention of "jim crow", if anything, you've just proved JZ's point, that in spite of the "abolishment" of Jim Crow racism continued unabated without restriction. We've progressed as a society, yes, but racism is still entrenched - Today.

Check the founding of Oregon, and it's status in the 50's, long after the abolishment of JC laws. Not the south....Oregon.

Oregon Was Founded As a Racist Utopia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

The Jim Crow laws were racial segregation state and local laws enacted after the Reconstruction period in Southern United States that continued in force until 1965 mandating de jure racial segregation in all public facilities in Southern U.S. states (of the formerConfederacy), starting in 1890 with a "separate but equal" status for African Americans. Conditions for African Americans were consistently inferior and underfunded compared to those provided for white Americans. This decision institutionalized a number of economic, educational and social disadvantages. De jure segregation mainly applied to the Southern United States, while Northern segregation was generally de facto — patterns of segregation in housing enforced by covenants, bank lending practices and job discrimination, including discriminatory union practices for decades.


Jim Crow laws mandated the segregation of public schools, public places and public transportation, and the segregation of restrooms, restaurants and drinking fountains for whites and blacks. The U.S. military was also segregated, as were federal workplaces, initiated in 1913 under PresidentWoodrow Wilson, the first Southern president elected since 1856. His administration practiced overt racial discrimination in hiring, requiring candidates to submit photos.


These Jim Crow laws followed the 1800–1866 Black Codes, which had previously restricted the civil rights and civil liberties of African Americans. Segregation of public (state-sponsored) schools was declared unconstitutional by theSupreme Court of the United States in 1954 in Brown v. Board of Education. Generally, the remaining Jim Crow laws were overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and theVoting Rights Act of 1965 but years of action and court challenges were needed to unravel numerous means of institutional discrimination. Such challenges continue.

[Patrick2]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain

“Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it”
― Sara Shepard, Wanted

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

“Those unable to catalog the past are doomed to repeat it.”
― Lemony Snicket, The End

“He who doesn't understand history is doomed to repeat it.”
― Pittacus Lore, I Am Number Four

“Learn from history or you're doomed to repeat it.”
― Jesse Ventura

“It's been my experience, Langford, that the past always has a way of returning. Those who don't learn, or can't remember it, are doomed to repeat it.”
― Steve Berry, The Charlemagne Pursuit

“Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. You have to expose who you are so that you can determine what you need to become.”
― Cynthia A. Patterson

“He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.”
― Paul Christopher, The Lucifer Gospel

From post # 79, above;

"The horrors of what Africans had to endure when they were taken against their will from their home land . . . for no reason other than to benefit the sub-human greed of some people here in the USA and else where, will never be forgotten." - Patrick2 . . . ;-)

[Patrick2]

this reflects the difficulty in any discussion of race. Non blacks typically feel they're being targeted and that the discussion is an attempt to make present day non blacks responsible for the actions of non blacks of the past. So in any discussion of race there's an immediate tendency on the part of non blacks to get defensive.

Jim Crow abolishment a "century" ago - How'd that work out?

Actually, by invoking the mention of "jim crow", if anything, you've just proved JZ's point, that in spite of the "abolishment" of Jim Crow racism continued unabated without restriction. We've progressed as a society, yes, but racism is still entrenched - Today.

Check the founding of Oregon, and it's status in the 50's, long after the abolishment of JC laws. Not the south....Oregon.

Oregon Was Founded As a Racist Utopia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

Check back further on this thread. It was not me who invoked the mention of "Jim Crow Laws". That would be Mr. Zucker. Mine mention was only a response to his invocation of that term.

Oregon on the "50s? That's 65 years ago my friend. Time to move on . . . innit? It is for me. I did mention that there is a relatively small residual of those atrocities and those scum bags . . . . and that our current course of self correction will eventually bring this too to an end. I'm just tired of reliving it. We all know how wrong and bad it was. There's no need for the constant reminder . . . because it's gotten much better in the natural course of a great nation self correcting. I prefer to believe that it will continue to do so.

[2bornot2bop]

From post # 79, above;

"The horrors of what Africans had to endure when they were taken against their will from their home land . . . for no reason other than to benefit the sub-human greed of some people here in the USA and else where, will never be forgotten." - Patrick2 . . . ;-)

Did you plagiarize Albert Einstein from 1946

Albert Einstein?s profound observations on entrenched racism in America - Salon.com

“Your ancestors dragged these black people from their homes by force; and in the white man’s quest for wealth and an easy life they have been ruthlessly suppressed and exploited, degraded into slavery,” Einstein wrote later in the document. “The modern prejudice against Negroes is the result of the desire to maintain this unworthy condition.”
“I do not believe there is a way in which this deeply entrenched evil can be quickly healed,” Albert Einstein wrote further on in the piece. “But until this goal is reached there is no greater satisfaction for a just and well-meaning person than the knowledge that he has devoted his best energies to the service of the good cause.”

[jzucker]

Oregon on the "50s? That's 65 years ago my friend. Time to move on . . . innit? It is for me. I did mention that there is a relatively small residual of those atrocities and those scum bags . . . . and that our current course of self correction will eventually bring this too to an end.

No disrespect intended but you only think that way because you are desensitized to watching the news from the point of view of someone other than yourself. If you are a person of color and watch the news lately, you would think just the opposite...

[2bornot2bop]

Check back further on this thread. It was not me who invoked the mention of "Jim Crow Laws". That would be Mr. Zucker. Mine mention was only a response to his invocation of that term.

Oregon on the "50s? That's 65 years ago my friend. Time to move on . . . innit? It is for me. I did mention that there is a relatively small residual of those atrocities and those scum bags . . . . and that our current course of self correction will eventually bring this too to an end. I'm just tired of reliving it. We all know how wrong and bad it was. There's no need for the constant reminder . . . because it's gotten much better in the natural course of a great nation self correcting. I prefer to believe that it will continue to do so.

In your haste to "move on" you failed to actually read the article in the link which spoke to Oregon's history and how that history is reflected in the Oregon of today. It's okay I get it...it's not fun reading this stuff. It would be great to "move on" without systemic racism in America today.

How about we begin that "moving on" process by dismantling today's inhumane treatment of blacks in the US Criminal Justice System?

Fourteen Examples of Systemic Racism in the US Criminal Justice System | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community

[Patrick2]

Did you plagiarize Albert Einstein from 1946

Albert Einstein?s profound observations on entrenched racism in America - Salon.com

Hey man . . . if I'm going to plagiarize anyone . . . it's got to at least be someone with a higher IQ than myself!!! Albert Einstein . . . "gimme a break". What the hell did he ever do?? Probably had no idea what so ever how to perfectly prepare Buccatini ala Amatriciana . . . or what wine to pair it with for that matter. From what I understand . . . . he had most of his meals at Wendy's.

[jzucker]

i might add that it's a lot easier to move on when you are not the continual subject of bias, harassment and suspicion. You cannot ask someone to move on until you've lived in their shoes.

[Patrick2]

In your haste to "move on" you failed to actually read the article in the link which spoke to Oregon's history and how that history is reflected in the Oregon of today. It's okay I get it...it's not fun reading this stuff. It would be great to "move on" without systemic racism in America today.

How about we begin that "moving on" process by dismantling today's inhumane treatment of blacks in the US Criminal Justice System?

Fourteen Examples of Systemic Racism in the US Criminal Justice System | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community

Yep . . . we could do that. How 'bout blacks stop subjecting themselves to the unfair and inhumane treatment of the criminal justice system . . by not breaking the law in such disproportunate numbers to whites? Ya see . . this can continue to swing both ways. There's plenty of blame to go around.

The systemic racism is diminishing far more rapidly than the crimes occuring in urban areas. There's much work to be done on both sides.

[Patrick2]

i might add that it's a lot easier to move on when you are not the continual subject of bias, harassment and suspicion. You cannot ask someone to move on until you've lived in their shoes.

So then, your recommendation would be to not have people move on. But, to have them continue to harbor annimosities, anger and hatred for all whites based upon what some whites are doing? Wouldn't that be similar to whites considering all blacks to be horrible people based upon the black on white crime? Tit for tat will not help us move past the racial divide that has escalated tremendously over the past 7 years. Racial healing will only begin to occur when race baiters dispense of the self serving rhetoric.

[jzucker]

So then, your recommendation would be to not have people move on. But, to have them continue to harbor annimosities, anger and hatred for all whites based upon what some whites are doing? Wouldn't that be similar to whites considering all blacks to be horrible people based upon the black on white crime? Tit for tat will not help us move past the racial divide that has escalated tremendously over the past 7 years. Racial healing will only begin to occur when race baiters dispense of the self serving rhetoric.

my advice is to keep pressing for changes and awareness. You're lucky you have the option of moving on. Many do not.