Was Wes Montgomery the first black guitarist to have his own signature instrument?

[fumblefingers]

I don't know who your comments are addressed to but nevertheless...

It's funny how you seem to have zero problem smearing the names Wes or CC with what you deem to be factual comments about their lifestyle choices. Just the facts right?

well, America's choices about race in America have a history too....it's not a smear attempt to refer to history as a plausible explanation "why" two of the biggest names in jazz guitar weren't seen fit as representatives for Gibson.

you're obviously having difficulty being reminded that not until times begin to change in American society, in the later 70's, did Gibson find it socially acceptable to have a black man's image on one of their guitars.

When the times changed Gibson saw fit to brand a guitar in Wes' name. But for KB, a recognized master guitarist, no.

Cunamara said it better than I ever could:



Edit- Personally I think it's sad that GB, another guitar icon, isn't represented in the guitar world until a startup Japanese company saw fit to cease the moment and essentially sign GB to what for all practical purposes has turned into a lifetime contract. Imagine what a Gibson GB would sell for? I wonder how many would sell?

Benson played a Johnny Smith. No need to rename.

[pubylakeg]

This is the first I have heard of this. Very interesting!

Regarding the L5, you can read more here,

Finding Charlie Christian?s Guitar: Lynn Wheelwright Interview | Jas Obrecht Music Archive

As far as I'm aware, Tony M didn't want his ownership of that guitar to be common knowledge.

[WilliamScott]

It should be pointed out that both Ovation and Guild came out with Josh White model guitars before any of the black performers mentioned here. JW was not a jazz guitarist but he was an African-American guitarist, and he got his own guitar model with two different companies.

[Danny W.]

Gibson ad in downbeat, 1940:



1947



So much for that theory.

Danny W.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What about pickups? Every jazz guitarist knows about "The Charlie Christian". Does it even have another name?

[Hammertone]

Danny:
Thanks for posting the ads. Facts often get in the way of constructs or narratives.

While I have not studied the history of the marketing (including publicity, advertising, sponsorships, endorsements and more) of popular American-made instruments (which goes beyond guitar), I have certainly noticed many of the ads that have been reprinted in various books and magazine articles, and read some of the stories about jazz guitarists and how they worked with instrument makers. Marketing is a young discipline compared to instrument-making, but it's clear to me that companies like Gibson used and continue to use the popular artists of the day to promote their own fortunes. Nick Lucas, Roy Smeck, Charlie Christian, Josh White, Johnny Grey, Frank Deniz, Wes Montgomery, Burl Ives, Trini Lopez, Saul Hudson, Kiefer Sutherland, etc. - it's about making the numbers, meeting the budget, achieving year-over-year financial objectives. It's not about the artists, it's about the product.

Manufacturers strive to sell what they make, and use whatever tools they can to do so. But they are limited by their own attitudes, world-views, and budgets, as well as societal norms - this is as true today as it was 100 years ago.

I always liked the style of ads that showed examples of endorsed artists - I think most manufacturers used this approach at one time or another. Post 'em if you got 'em. Here's one of my favourites, from 1957:

[Hammertone]

Did the Gibson Guitar company marginalize Wes Montgomery or not, yes or no?

Has the Gibson Guitar company marginalized, disrespected, or otherwise taken unfair advantage of black players, yes or no?

No. As grahambop pointed out above:
The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery - Gibson advertisement (1964)
Gibson, The Workingmans Guitar - Gibson advertisement (1967)
Wes Montgomery - Gibson advertisement (1965)

[Patrick2]

[fumblefingers]

No. As grahambop pointed out above:
The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery - Gibson advertisement (1964)
Gibson, The Workingmans Guitar - Gibson advertisement (1967)
Wes Montgomery - Gibson advertisement (1965)

Right. Those look like....... Endorsements.

that means some kind of deal/barter/exchange.

that doesn't fit very well for the permanent victim class narrative though.

[Stuart Elliott]

It should be pointed out that both Ovation and Guild came out with Josh White model guitars before any of the black performers mentioned here. JW was not a jazz guitarist but he was an African-American guitarist, and he got his own guitar model with two different companies.

Actually, Guild build a guitar for Josh White, but they did not have a endorsement deal with White, according to Premier Guitar.

[wintermoon]

keep in mind that there is a difference between an artist endorsing a guitar in a magazine ad, and actually having their own signature model, which was the OP's question.

[grahambop]

keep in mind that there is a difference between an artist endorsing a guitar in a magazine ad, and actually having their own signature model, which was the OP's question.

Yes, but along the way, there were one or two suggestions that Gibson were reluctant to use black musicians as 'representatives' or feature them in their advertising. In the case of Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell, this is clearly not the case.

[2bornot2bop]

Yes, but along the way, there were one or two suggestions that Gibson were reluctant to use black musicians as 'representatives' or feature them in their advertising. In the case of Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell, this is clearly not the case.

Yes, and in that persons defense he's not as old in the guitar tooth as some of you.

[WilliamScott]

Actually, Guild build a guitar for Josh White, but they did not have a endorsement deal with White, according to Premier Guitar.

Thanks for pointing that out. I do see that the Premier Guitar article states that the Ovation Josh White model was likely the first African-American named guitar model.

[fumblefingers]

keep in mind that there is a difference between an artist endorsing a guitar in a magazine ad, and actually having their own signature model, which was the OP's question.

True enough, but some kind of endorsement deal is still money in the players pocket.

I'm not really sure how the deals work, but i'm guessing that all signature guitars are simply a marketing gambit for the maker, aren't they? They bring pumped up sales for the maker, and free guitars and pocket change for the artist, right? The more they sell the better for both parties, and if they don't sell it's a bust.

With regards to Wes and the L5... The L5 really didn't need an introduction by the 1960s, and it certainly would have been very foolish to rename it for a player - any player. But then Wes became famous with the CTI pop albums, and became known for the 1 pickup version. You might say that Wes and the one-pickup version became synonymous to some extent. So a one-off signature model finally made sense? Heck if i know.

With regards to the Benson signature... One take on that story might be that Ibanez' gain was Gibson's loss. I doubt that Gibson really would have made a little archtop guitar like the GB-10 for the price that Ibanez did. (Look at the price of the Lee Rit. It's more expensive than an L5CES! I also doubt that Lee Rits sell in large numbers). So things seem to have worked out pretty well for Benson and Ibanez on that deal. After the Benson model was made Ibanez offered Joe Pass and Pat Metheny models, so at one point they had three icons of Jazz guitar signed up with signature models. It suited Ibanez' business model, which was to build a brand making good quality, affordable guitars, and it still seems to be working for George and Pat. People know what they will get with a Gibson archtop, and it's different.

There's room in the marketplace for more than one guitar maker. Gibson has made fine instruments since the 1880s. Players come and go. It's not Gibson's duty to "reward" every good or great player with their own signature model.

Parting shot - the great John McLaughlin has never had a signature model. He has only endorsed one guitar as far as I know, and that was for a very short period. I'm not certain as to why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with not being cursed with "marriage" to one guitar or maker.

[Hammertone]

... Gibson has made fine instruments since the 1880s. ...

Since 1894.

Parting shot - the great John McLaughlin has never had a signature model. He has only endorsed one guitar as far as I know, and that was for a very short period. I'm not certain as to why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with not being cursed with "marriage" to one guitar or maker.

http://www.godinguitars.com/johnmclaughlin.htm
http://www.johnmclaughlin.com/equipment/
John seems to do whatever the hell he wants regarding gear.
He seems perfectly happy to help out the folks at Godin these days.
Whether that's a deal or simply a gesture is unknown to me.

With regards to the Benson signature... One take on that story might be that Ibanez' gain was Gibson's loss.

Another take on that story might be that Ibanez' gain was Polytone's loss.

[grahambop]

Yes, and in that persons defense he's not as old in the guitar tooth as some of you.

I only really knew about those adverts because of a book I got (Classic guitars of the 50s) which had loads of those old ads in it. Also a friend once gave me some old 60s Downbeat magazines and I remember seeing the Wes ads in them.

[Cunamara]

Of course, Wes died young, as did Charlie Christian. One was a chain cig smoker, one was a chain joint smoker. Who knows what would have happened had they each lived out their full lives?

it seems to me that this thread is trying to make a racial prejudice issue out of guitar signature models. I find that to be pathetic.

Wes died of heart disease; smoking might well have contributed as might the fact that he worked full time as well as played full time to support his family and so was under a lot of stress. It wasn't until the later (and maligned by some) part of his career where he made some money playing music. He was a teetotaller and a family man.

Charlie Christian died of tuberculosis, an infectious disease that was rampant in America at the time and had no effective treatment. You were placed in a sanitorium away from other people without TB until you died or the disease became inactive. Frequently you died. It had nothing to do with whether he smoked pot or not. TB is still a large public health problem.

Arguably Charlie Christian sold a lot of Gibson guitars and amps and helped secure their place and the premier instruments of jazz; Wes made the L-5CES into an icon.

What's pathetic is that the contributions of non-white Americans to our culture and our wealth is routinely unrecognized, often resented when mentioned, and that we don't understand that this is racism. Neglecting musicians like Charlie Christian, Wes, etc., while honoring Tal Farlow, Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel, Les Paul with signature models was racist even if as a sin of omission. (Now, if Gibson offered and Wes or Charlie declined, I would have to retract that; I would imagine that would be well known if it were the case).

[wintermoon]

"What's pathetic is that the contributions of non-white Americans to our culture and our wealth is routinely unrecognized"

was....

[fumblefingers]

Since 1894.


John McLaughlin
Equipment | John McLaughlin
John seems to do whatever the hell he wants regarding gear.
He seems perfectly happy to help out the folks at Godin these days.
Whether that's a deal or simply a gesture is unknown to me.


Another take on that story might be that Ibanez' gain was Polytone's loss.

1880s vs. 1894. Okie dokie. beside the point i was making, given that it's 2015.

yes, i was referring to Godin. duh. he played their guitars for a while but soon afterwards appeared with that nice PRS private stock at the link you showed. what are you saying about Godin and JM that I didn't say?

i don't get your reference to Polytone. is it important to the discussion of Gibson bashing and guilt tripping above?

[fumblefingers]

Wes died of heart disease; smoking might well have contributed as might the fact that he worked full time as well as played full time to support his family and so was under a lot of stress. It wasn't until the later (and maligned by some) part of his career where he made some money playing music. He was a teetotaller and a family man.

Charlie Christian died of tuberculosis, an infectious disease that was rampant in America at the time and had no effective treatment. You were placed in a sanitorium away from other people without TB until you died or the disease became inactive. Frequently you died. It had nothing to do with whether he smoked pot or not. TB is still a large public health problem.

Arguably Charlie Christian sold a lot of Gibson guitars and amps and helped secure their place and the premier instruments of jazz; Wes made the L-5CES into an icon.

What's pathetic is that the contributions of non-white Americans to our culture and our wealth is routinely unrecognized, often resented when mentioned, and that we don't understand that this is racism. Neglecting musicians like Charlie Christian, Wes, etc., while honoring Tal Farlow, Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel, Les Paul with signature models was racist even if as a sin of omission. (Now, if Gibson offered and Wes or Charlie declined, I would have to retract that; I would imagine that would be well known if it were the case).

yes Wes died of heart disease. we agree. but you forgot the chain smoker part. one doesn't have to dig that hard to see a pattern of smokers dying much earlier than their non-smoking counterparts. did he work hard with long hours? yep, same as a lot of others, like me. He was a little overweight too, but who ain't? But I'm under the impression that he was done with the factory day gig when he died, although not certain. Regardless, the fact that he was not a drinker/doper to your point, and was only in his mid-forties when he had the heart attack is telling as far as i'm concerned. but that's OK. you believe what you want. fire up a couple of packs of Marlboros a day if you want to drive your point home for all i care.

the historical account is that CC was well on the mend in a hospital when some "friends" decided that that was a good time to bring him some marijuana and a woman. he died very shortly thereafter.

your charges of racism in this context are baseless. i'm not going to spend a lot of time on this but i'll lay it out one more time.

Charlie was on the scene for a very, very short period of time. Gibson was working with him. Their electric archtops were very new at that time. Then he passed almost as soon as he hit the scene. Most of those other signature models deals were a new way of doing business and appeared after he was dead and gone. your imagining of a slight towards him is a ridiculous stretch.

the other signature models were specifically "something other than an L5". they didn't exist prior and have either been canceled or sell in small numbers (with the exception of the Les Paul of course). not so the L5. by 1960 it needed no introduction, was a successful model, and was already a classic. and Wes? well he favored the L5. in fact he couldn't be talked out of it, per my earlier recounting of an interview with him. so, where is the need for a Wes model when he specifically didn't want anything other than his beloved L5? i don't think you're thinking this through.

[Hammertone]

1880s vs. 1894. Okie dokie. beside the point i was making, given that it's 2015.

1959 vs. 1974. For some reason, some folks pay attention to the dates. Just a jovial poke.

yes, i was referring to Godin. duh. he played their guitars for a while but soon afterwards appeared with that nice PRS private stock at the link you showed. what are you saying about Godin and JM that I didn't say?

Just a random observation. Beats working. I think he still uses them when he feels like it? Maybe he's like McCartney, who does not endorse Hofner and has never taken a dime from them.

i don't get your reference to Polytone. is it important to the discussion of Gibson bashing and guilt tripping above?

The myth is that in the late 1970s, Polytone was trying to do a George Benson model guitar, Benson went with Ibanez, and the leftovers examples were released as the Improv I.

I doubt that it's true, but it's a good story. I dunno, maybe that's what connects it to Gibson bashing and guilt tripping?

[fumblefingers]

The myth is that in the late 1970s, Polytone was trying to do a George Benson model guitar, Benson went with Ibanez, and the leftovers examples were released as the Improv I.

I doubt that it's true, but it's a good story. I dunno, maybe that's what connects it to Gibson bashing and guilt tripping?

no surprise. there see to be a few people who are interested in doing deals with GB. all the more reason not to blame Gibson for some perceived slight.

have you seen the price of Benson TI strings lately? over $35. when I started buying them they were about $12. TIs other comparable nickel strings are much less expensive - as are Benedettos. Benedetto is not known for being the cheapest brand around.


here's a thought about signature models.


Lets say "Guitar Company A" offers "Artist A" a 10% commission (of retail price) for every signature guitar sold.
Lets further say that Guitar Company A would make an affordable signature model and sell about 1000 units per year.

then

Lets say that "Guitar Company B" also offers "Artist A" a 10% commission (of retail price) for every signature guitar sold.
But lets say that Guitar Company B would make an expensive signature model that would cost twice as much as Guitar Company A's model, and would sell half as many units per year in normal economic times, but even fewer in challenging economic times.

Is the artist an abused, unfairly treated person if he selects the deal with Company A?

[Patrick2]

We've had this discussion here before, on the racial injustices black jazzers lived through decades ago. The thread got ugly and didn't end well. I fear that this one is headed in the same direction.

This country will never get past this current ugly era of racial divide, as long as people choose to continue to relive and revisit to injustices of the past. We are all very aware of those injustices and all good people regret and deplore them. But, the country has moved way way beyond that now. To perfection?? Not hardly. But current injustices are being recognized and addressed on an ever increasing basis. In fact, some very non biased people believe that the pendulum has swung back too far in the other direction and exceeds the point of middle nuetrality.

The fact of the matter is that black jazz guitarists are now getting their well deserved props . . . as are all other black jazzers.

"Yesterday is a cancelled check. Tomorrow is a promissory note. Today is all the time we've got. Spend it wisely" . . . (Art Rust JR.)

Living a life lammenting or being angered by past injustices will serve no one well. We live in the current time . . . not the past.

[Stringswinger]

Patrick,

That was well stated. Perpetual victimhood reopens old wounds.

Time is better spent improving ones chops, then by wringing ones hands over what happened to others long ago.