Was Wes Montgomery the first black guitarist to have his own signature instrument?

[Broyale]

Just curious. Was the guitar Gibson made for him (a single pickup L5) considered a signature model back then, or was it just a single pickup L5?

[rpguitar]

It was a custom guitar built for him personally, not reproduced and offered as a "signature" model. Contrast with the Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Trini Lopez, etc. models that were produced by the factory with artist endorsement deals.

I'm just guessing, but George Benson might be the first African American guitarist to have an official signature guitar (1977).

[Cunamara]

It was a custom guitar built for him personally, not reproduced and offered as a "signature" model. Contrast with the Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Trini Lopez, etc. models that were produced by the factory with artist endorsement deals.

I'm just guessing, but George Benson might be the first African American guitarist to have an official signature guitar (1977).

Wow, think about that for a moment. If correct, all the signature model guitars were made for white guys until 1977 despite the contributions of African American musicians. Jazz guitar as we play it today was pretty much invented by Charlie Christian but no signature model. Of course the notion of the signature model didn't come along until long after CC had passed on and his working career was short despite its momentousness.

I periodically think about selling my GB10 because I rarely use it, but I may have to hang onto it just because.

[2bornot2bop]

It is pretty sick that Wes didn't experience a namesake guitar while alive. Whose cashing in on the boatload of WesMo guitars Gibson is selling? It wouldn't surprise me if Gibson got that authorization for mere pennies relative to the number of guitars that have been sold.

But that's indicative of the times...all through the 40's musician's complained about not being able to make a living and get paid relative to their counterparts. That might seem like old news. But thank goodness for Russell Malone and GB, otherwise one might get the impression that the only jazz guitarists of today are non black players.

edit - Indicative of the craziness, the Wiki page of "black jazz guitarists" omits the names of CC, KB and RM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...azz_guitarists

[fumblefingers]

Well is that the most important thing? What people's impressions are?

I think that people go for what they like. Maybe "non black" players are more drawn to jazz guitar, and in a large percentage of cases, because of the inspiration they take from black players. Funny ain't it?

maybe the grass is always greener on the other side..

[Stringswinger]

There are great Black jazz guitarists as well as great White jazz guitarists. No one race has a monopoly on anything.

It is sad that Black folks in the history of jazz music have not had as much opportunity as White folks over the years. Let's hope the future provides a more level playing field.

I hope the Wes Montgomery Estate gets some fat royalty checks from Gibson. Wes was a family man and would be happy with that prospect.

[jzucker]

pretty sad, ain't it. Speaking of wes, his grandson from star trek next gen was supposed to play him in a documentary but I guess it never got off the ground. Too busy doing terminator 10 I guess...

[MarkRhodes]

Is the guitar unusual in having signature models? Are their Charlie Parker model altos or Miles Davis trumpets?

[2bornot2bop]

There are great Black jazz guitarists as well as great White jazz guitarists. No one race has a monopoly on anything.

It is sad that Black folks in the history of jazz music have not had as much opportunity as White folks over the years. Let's hope the future provides a more level playing field.

I hope the Wes Montgomery Estate gets some fat royalty checks from Gibson. Wes was a family man and would be happy with that prospect.

The silver lining for me is what was born from the seeds of slavery, and later segregation, jazz has birthed into a world mix of players the world over...still growing, and renewing itself...however slowly.

Is the guitar unusual in having signature models? Are their Charlie Parker model altos or Miles Davis trumpets?

I've never seen a single one. In fact, the only reference to a player I've seen is Dizzy Gillespie styled trumpets with an upward bell as was used by Diz for much of his playing days. People of course commonly refer to these as "Gillespie models" but I've never seen one with Diz' name on it. That would require some type of royalty to be paid, yes?

edit-I stand corrected. King had a "DG" model, now discontinued. And for certain somewhere there are Maynard Ferguson trumpets...what a stratospheric player he was.

http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/trumpet/DizzyFlair.htm

[spiral]

Cool topic. What was the first signature guitar, period? Les Paul?

[edit. sorry if this is spinning off topic. I got excited.]
According to Harmony Central it may be the Gibson Nick Lucas for acoustics and the Rickenbacker Ken Roberts for electric.

1927 Gibson Nick Lucas Special | The Fretboard Journal: Keepsake magazine for guitar collectors

Catch of the Day: 1935 Rickenbacher Ken Roberts Electro-Spanish | The Fretboard Journal: Keepsake magazine for guitar collectors


Rickenbacher Ken Roberts Model with lap steel pickup and matching amp. 1936 vintage original Rickenbacker by eric ernest, on Flickr
(I would love a copy of that amp!)

[Cunamara]

The Nick Lucas Special was introduced into the Gibson catalog in 1927. I don't know of an earlier signature model.

[Hammertone]

Harmony introduced the Roy Smeck Vita series in 1927 as well - not sure if Smeck's line pre-dated the Lucas. I'd give the Wizard of the Strings equal billing with the Crooning Troubador.

[fumblefingers]

B.B. King?

[fumblefingers]

Just curious. Was the guitar Gibson made for him (a single pickup L5) considered a signature model back then, or was it just a single pickup L5?

it's just a single pickup L5 now, ain't it?

[vinlander]

Wouldn't the gold hardware Fender Nocaster played by Oscar Moore in 1951 qualify as some signature instrument?
Leo was apparently a fan of swing and wanted to contribute to it
Interesting reading here:

A Modernist: Oscar Moore and Fender (1951)

[iim7V7IM7]

B.B. King?

1980, I believe...

[MarkRhodes]

Wouldn't the gold hardware Fender Nocaster played by Oscar Moore in 1951 qualify as some signature instrument?
Leo was apparently a fan of swing and wanted to contribute to it
Interesting reading here:

A Modernist: Oscar Moore and Fender (1951)

That was a new one on me. Thanks! Oscar was such a tasty player.

[Dennis D]

Cool topic. What was the first signature guitar, period? Les Paul ?

Roy Smeck has to be in there somewhere, right ?

[zdub]

It is pretty sick that Wes didn't experience a namesake guitar while alive. Whose cashing in on the boatload of WesMo guitars Gibson is selling? It wouldn't surprise me if Gibson got that authorization for mere pennies relative to the number of guitars that have been sold.

But that's indicative of the times...all through the 40's musician's complained about not being able to make a living and get paid relative to their counterparts. That might seem like old news. But thank goodness for Russell Malone and GB, otherwise one might get the impression that the only jazz guitarists of today are non black players.

edit - Indicative of the craziness, the Wiki page of "black jazz guitarists" omits the names of CC, KB and RM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...azz_guitarists

You really can't glean anything from those categories as it has to be specifically added to the original Wiki entry. In CC's case, for example, he was added to a whole bunch of categories including Swing guitarists, Bebop guitarists, Deaths from Tuberculosis, etc.

He was in categories American Jazz Guitarists and African-American Guitarists. But not African-American Jazz Guitarists.

So I just added him to the last category.

[wintermoon]

"Wouldn't the gold hardware Fender Nocaster played by Oscar Moore in 1951 qualify as some signature instrument?
Leo was apparently a fan of swing and wanted to contribute to it"

that doesn't count as others were given instruments, such as Wes, Kenny Burrell etc, but they didn't have signature guitars like Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel, Tal Farlow etc....

[2bornot2bop]

B.B. King?

From this black man's lone perspective.

B.B. King was loved by non black audiences...and even though his Gibson model came well after the other non black jazz guitarists who each had Gibson models created in their names, it was always my personal belief that the Gibson B.B. King model came as a result of his huge non black following. It's my believe that profit was the motive behind the Gibson B.B King.

Anyone who knows the blues knows that, in spite of how the blues was born, ironically, the Blues became a music that was hugely adapted by a non black audience, even still today. And in the 80's it is my belief that Gibson chose B.B. King to be the first black man to have a guitar created in his name due to the huge audience that existed for non black blues players. In short, it's easy to connect the monetary dots and the creation of the B.B. King guitar. All of course IMHO.

[fumblefingers]

From this black man's lone perspective.

B.B. King was loved by non black audiences...and even though his Gibson model came well after the other non black jazz guitarists who each had Gibson models created in their names, it was always my personal belief that the Gibson B.B. King model came as a result of his huge non black following. It's my believe that profit was the motive behind the Gibson B.B King.

Anyone who knows the blues knows that, in spite of how the blues was born, ironically, the Blues became a music that was hugely adapted by a non black audience, even still today. And in the 80's it is my belief that Gibson chose B.B. King to be the first black man to have a guitar created in his name due to the huge audience that existed for non black blues players. In short, it's easy to connect the monetary dots and the creation of the B.B. King guitar. All of course IMHO.

profit motive? Oh no!!!

but seriously, all guitars are made for profit, unless they're a gift.


Wes did not invent the L5, I believe that was Lloyd Loar. And B.B. played standard Gibson semi-hollows forever, so I guess his guitar was a one off, as was Johnny Smith's or Wes Montgomery's. Isn't the Ibanez GB a lot more unique and original than all of those?

Of course, Wes died young, as did Charlie Christian. One was a chain cig smoker, one was a chain joint smoker. Who knows what would have happened had they each lived out their full lives?

it seems to me that this thread is trying to make a racial prejudice issue out of guitar signature models. I find that to be pathetic.

if someone is trying to make that case, then please step up and make it. Oh, and bringing some facts along might be a tad refreshing. Thanks a bunch.

[2bornot2bop]

profit motive? Oh no!!!

but seriously, all guitars are made for profit, unless they're a gift.


Wes did not invent the L5, I believe that was Lloyd Loar. And B.B. played standard Gibson semi-hollows forever, so I guess his guitar was a one off, as was Johnny Smith's or Wes Montgomery's. Isn't the Ibanez GB a lot more unique and original than all of those?

Of course, Wes died young, as did Charlie Christian. One was a chain cig smoker, one was a chain joint smoker. Who knows what would have happened had they each lived out their full lives?

it seems to me that this thread is trying to make a racial prejudice issue out of guitar signature models. I find that to be pathetic.

if someone is trying to make that case, then please step up and make it. Oh, and bringing some facts along might be a tad refreshing. Thanks a bunch.

No motives here FF...no need to get ones dander up.

No need to get uneasy whenever the truth is told as it relates to race. The historical facts of how non whites have been treated in America for centuries is well documented. The historical truth about race in America is what it is. This isn't the forum for a race history lesson.

But regarding Gibsons relationship, or lack of, with Wes, clearly anyone with any observational powers can see in the eyes of Gibson, Wes, or KB, did not merit a guitar in their namesake.

Given that Wes passed in '68 and rose to stardom in the late 50's, I'm almost willing to give Gibson a pass due to the short nature of Wes' career.

But KB, gets no such recognition.....either? Hmmm...ones a question....two is a pattern.

Now one could suggest Gibson didn't recognize the popularity of Wes until long after his death. But that doesn't explain their ad for their Wes L5 guitar....I mean according to Gibsons own ad Wes was a "legend" before he died. Well, where was the guitar for the "legend?"

Gibson.com: Gibson Custom Wes Montgomery L-5 CES

It was the 60's...Watts, Detroit, civil rights act of '64....

are you suggesting it's possible that Gibson didn't make a decision to have a namesake guitar for a "legendary" black player in the 60's based upon bias? Well of course anything is possible...like when black folks in the south in the late 50's began to think that one day it was "possible" to have a right to vote....then one day some guy with a "dream" came into existence...

my comments aren't meant to stir up white guilt. But you've not lived that experience so it's not expected you'd see the past through a similar lens....

But I'd take exception to your references to CC, Wes, which are much like your references to Miles in the past....as if a person, whom you never knew, is only defined by their addictions....so not kewl man. Judgement defines the judging...always

[Para]

Hasn't Kenny Burrell got a signature Heritage?

[2bornot2bop]

Hasn't Kenny Burrell got a signature Heritage?

Yes. I believe it's been something around 50 Heritage KB's created. That signature model came about some time in the 90's nearly 40 years into his career.

Jazz Articles: Kenny Burrell: String Theory - By Don Heckman ? Jazz Articles