Was Wes Montgomery the first black guitarist to have his own signature instrument?

[pubylakeg]

It's also remarkable that Charlie Christian wasn't even featured in Gibson advertising at the time, or offered any endorsement.

However, in the interests of balance, I believe Oscar Moore, and John Collins were listed in the Gibson Galaxy of stars.

Wes featured in Gibson advertising as well.

[Teddyfm]

Interesting topic. What about Bo Diddley? He must have been around when Gretsch made his trademark custom guitar(s) available to the market, or?

Ted

EDIT: That article 2b. "“I remember sitting in one time with Charlie Parker,” recalled Burrell."

Let that sink in. Great read.

[vinlander]

On one side there are those aforementioned legends who never got the attention they deserved from the guitar industry and there are those who had too much like Slash, but what is much worst is truly that non-sense:

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guita...guitars-216680

When DJ and actors have their signature guitars, it tells a lot about the motivation behind ...

[MarkRhodes]

Hasn't Kenny Burrell got a signature Heritage?

The Super KB, details here:


Heritage Guitar, Inc. of Kalamazoo - Hollow Body - Super KB

[medblues]

Kenny Burrell's looks do not easily lead one into a racial categorization. And if we look hard enough we would find many other superb guitar players with non-Caucasian parents.

I find it difficult that race had no role in starting this thread, it's right there in the title.

Player specific production models are almost entirely for marketing strategy. Maybe some luthiers may name their models to specially honor a player. Heritage KB may fall into a gray area because they are not that into increasing their sales numbers.

[MarkRhodes]

On one side there are those aforementioned legends who never got the attention they deserved from the guitar industry and there are those who had too much like Slash, but what is much worst is truly that non-sense:

10 unlikely signature guitars | 10 unlikely signature guitars | Guitar News | MusicRadar

When DJ and actors have their signature guitars, it tells a lot about the motivation behind ...

It's not like Gibson is the guitar equivalent of baseball's Hall of Fame. When it comes to the selections to Cooperstown, it makes sense to argue whether someone got in who shouldn't or didn't get in who should. But job one for Gibson is selling Gibson guitars.

To me, it is interesting that there are so many signature model guitars but not, say, signature pianos (-where is the Monk piano, the Bud Powell, the Bill Evans, the Horace Silver, the Oscar Peterson?) or saxophones (-what, no John Coltrane tenor? No Sonny Rollins? No Coleman Hawkins? no Bird alto?).

Perhaps guitarists---as a group---tinker with their instruments more than other players. Maybe guitars allow for more desirable variations than, say, Selmer saxophones. (One pickup rather than two, different kinds of wood, different scale lengths, what have you.) Maybe more guitar players want a hero's name on their horn than horn player's do.

(Apparently, the two most popular Selmer saxophones are the Le Voix and Paris series. Then there is the Bundy series and the Mark VI. I don't know why those names were chosen but they aren't the names of great jazz sax players, black or white.

[pubylakeg]

EDIT: That article 2b. "“I remember sitting in one time with Charlie Parker,” recalled Burrell."

Let that sink in. Great read.

Yeah, absolutely fascinating article. I was also impressed with the account of the Burrell brothers setting up a guitar/Fender bass/drums trio in 1945. Also significant how much Kenny favoured that line up throughout his career.

[pubylakeg]

Whilst thinking about it, I felt this thread wouldn't be complete without a mention of the Samick "Solo Flight" ltd. edition Charlie Christian model.

[wintermoon]

"It's also remarkable that Charlie Christian wasn't even featured in Gibson advertising at the time, or offered any endorsement"

well, he was only on the scene for a couple of years, so....

[pubylakeg]

"It's also remarkable that Charlie Christian wasn't even featured in Gibson advertising at the time, or offered any endorsement"

well, he was only on the scene for a couple of years, so....

Agreed, but 2 years is still a significant amount of time, particularly given the huge coverage that Christian had at the time.

I wasn't actually trying to put a slant on the history other than the way these events are generally regarded.

Of further significance is the fact that,AFAIK, (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) Gibson actually gave Charlie the bigger piggyback (EH-185?) amplifier. There's also the story of the L5 with CC pickup,which Gibson built for Charlie,which ended up being owned by Tony Mottola, so perhaps he may indeed have had a "signature" model, had he survived his illness.

[fumblefingers]

Did the Gibson Guitar company marginalize Wes Montgomery or not, yes or no?

[fumblefingers]

Has the Gibson Guitar company marginalized, disrespected, or otherwise taken unfair
advantage of black players, yes or no?

[Cunamara]

Of further significance is the fact that,AFAIK, (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) Gibson actually gave Charlie the bigger piggyback (EH-185?) amplifier. There's also the story of the L5 with CC pickup,which Gibson built for Charlie,which ended up being owned by Tony Mottola, so perhaps he may indeed have had a "signature" model, had he survived his illness.

This is the first I have heard of this. Very interesting!

[2bornot2bop]

It's also remarkable that Charlie Christian wasn't even featured in Gibson advertising at the time, or offered any endorsement.

However, in the interests of balance, I believe Oscar Moore, and John Collins were listed in the Gibson Galaxy of stars.

Wes featured in Gibson advertising as well.

From my perspective whether it was the 1930's or the 1960's Gibson's chosen behavior was reflective of the times. Anyone nearly 60 recalls what it was like. I don't recall seeing a black athlete being signed to represent a product until OJ's success in the later 70's and Hertz commercials.

Anyone who finds the truth "pathetic" perhaps may not want to be reminded of the truth.

[fumblefingers]

So what is the truth in this particular context? You seem to be dancing around a declarative statement.

(And the topic was Was, black musicians and signature guitars, just to help with focus.)

did someone do some ill? What was the misdeed exactly? What were the wrongs done?

and in your reply please refrain from the black history month social studies essays if you don't mind. Brevity can help foster better understanding between parties in a circular discussion like this.

thanks.

[2bornot2bop]

So what is the truth in this particular context? You seem to be dancing around a declarative statement.

(And the topic was Was, black musicians and signature guitars, just to help with focus.)

did someone do some ill? What was the misdeed exactly? What were the wrongs done?

and in your reply please refrain from the black history month social studies essays if you don't mind. Brevity can help foster better understanding between parties in a circular discussion like this.

thanks.

I don't know who your comments are addressed to but nevertheless...

It's funny how you seem to have zero problem smearing the names Wes or CC with what you deem to be factual comments about their lifestyle choices. Just the facts right?

well, America's choices about race in America have a history too....it's not a smear attempt to refer to history as a plausible explanation "why" two of the biggest names in jazz guitar weren't seen fit as representatives for Gibson.

you're obviously having difficulty being reminded that not until times begin to change in American society, in the later 70's, did Gibson find it socially acceptable to have a black man's image on one of their guitars.

When the times changed Gibson saw fit to brand a guitar in Wes' name. But for KB, a recognized master guitarist, no.

Cunamara said it better than I ever could:

Wow, think about that for a moment. If correct, all the signature model guitars were made for white guys until 1977 despite the contributions of African American musicians. Jazz guitar as we play it today was pretty much invented by Charlie Christian but no signature model. Of course the notion of the signature model didn't come along until long after CC had passed on and his working career was short despite its momentousness.

I periodically think about selling my GB10 because I rarely use it, but I may have to hang onto it just because.

Edit- Personally I think it's sad that GB, another guitar icon, isn't represented in the guitar world until a startup Japanese company saw fit to cease the moment and essentially sign GB to what for all practical purposes has turned into a lifetime contract. Imagine what a Gibson GB would sell for? I wonder how many would sell?

[Bluedawg]

Of course, Wes died young, as did Charlie Christian. One was a chain cig smoker, one was a chain joint smoker. Who knows what would have happened had they each lived out their full lives?

I think herein lies the problem for reaching a fair conclusion ... the two prime candidates for signature guitars of their time died on the young side

[vinlander]

Whilst thinking about it, I felt this thread wouldn't be complete without a mention of the Samick "Solo Flight" ltd. edition Charlie Christian model.

I know CC was quite avant gardiste for the time but a single pickup no cutaway would have been more relevant lol

[rpguitar]

Well this is an odd thread indeed.

First, I learn that Kenny Burrell is... black? He is?? There are a few odd photos of him with a mustache where he could pass for African American, but he sure looks 100% like an old white guy now. I don't doubt this and I did Google it - it's just a real surprise to me.

Second, I'm not ready to call Gibson racist. One might take notice that after the late 1960s, there are NO new Gibson signature guitars introduced at all. The practice doesn't seem to come back into play until recent times (90s? Trying to find some info on this...). It is far more likely that the whole royalty thing was a business model that someone decided wasn't worth doing.

You really do have to put yourself in the company's shoes. They didn't introduce signature models to pay respectful homage to deceased players. They did it so that LIVING players would go out and play the guitars LIVE, presumably to excite fans, resulting in sales. Plus you had to actually have a legal agreement with the player, and NONE of us have a clue what talks may have transpired between the artists being discussed and the Gibson company.

[2bornot2bop]

Well this is an odd thread indeed.

First, I learn that Kenny Burrell is... black? He is?? There are a few odd photos of him with a mustache where he could pass for African American, but he sure looks 100% like an old white guy now. I don't doubt this and I did Google it - it's just a real surprise to me.

Second, I'm not ready to call Gibson racist. One might take notice that after the late 1960s, there are NO new Gibson signature guitars introduced at all. The practice doesn't seem to come back into play until recent times (90s? Trying to find some info on this...). It is far more likely that the whole royalty thing was a business model that someone decided wasn't worth doing.

You really do have to put yourself in the company's shoes. They didn't introduce signature models to pay respectful homage to deceased players. They did it so that LIVING players would go out and play the guitars LIVE, presumably to excite fans, resulting in sales. Plus you had to actually have a legal agreement with the player, and NONE of us have a clue what talks may have transpired between the artists being discussed and the Gibson company.

To be clear -

I'm not calling Gibson's failure to have a signature model guitar of a black player racist. I'm saying their corporate decision not to do so was par for the course and reflective of the times. It just wasn't common that blacks were used as representatives of corporate products on television advertisements or otherwise, until long after the civil rights act of '64. Throughout the 60's "race" was a large part of the American discussion.

KB was from Detroit. Duh

Clearly KB's complexion is not unlike many blacks of mixed heritage. In America, if you're 10% black, and possess some black facial features, you're black. How do I know? My Mom is French and German, but my dad was Black. KB had a 'fro back in the radical 60's and through much of the 70's. KB looked like a black guy with a light complexion...there are many of us....you've not been noticing that we don't all look alike?

Just ribbing you RP!

[fumblefingers]

I don't know who your comments are addressed to but nevertheless...

It's funny how you seem to have zero problem smearing the names Wes or CC with what you deem to be factual comments about their lifestyle choices. Just the facts right?

well, America's choices about race in America have a history too....it's not a smear attempt to refer to history as a plausible explanation "why" two of the biggest names in jazz guitar weren't seen fit as representatives for Gibson.

you're obviously having difficulty being reminded that not until times begin to change in American society, in the later 70's, did Gibson find it socially acceptable to have a black man's image on one of their guitars.

When the times changed Gibson saw fit to brand a guitar in Wes' name. But for KB, a recognized master guitarist, no.

Cunamara said it better than I ever could:



Edit- Personally I think it's sad that GB, another guitar icon, isn't represented in the guitar world until a startup Japanese company saw fit to cease the moment and essentially sign GB to what for all practical purposes has turned into a lifetime contract. Imagine what a Gibson GB would sell for? I wonder how many would sell?

more hyperbole and rhetoric.

smearing their names? No, just stating the historical facts as passed on by many sources. We all have vices, including me. At least one can be honest about it. Either you're a chain smoker or you aren't. Either you take drugs or you don't. Either you drink or not, etc. burning the candle at both ends, not exercising regularly, etc.


Besides, what do YOU think was going on at Minton's after midnight? Choir practice? Wine, women and song, to put it kindly. And yes, I can relate.

Smoking is a risk factor for TB, and passing a joint that others put their mouths on, in a cold climate, in a poor part of town is too. I'm not blaming anybody but I'll be darned if I'll be blamed. I had a few things in common with CC when I was 24, as far as that goes.

i would have loved to have seen CC, Wes, and George all jamming together in the 70's and 80's. That easily could have been possible had two of them simply not smoked.

[grahambop]

Well one thing is certain, Gibson were perfectly happy to feature Wes in their guitar adverts:

The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery - Gibson advertisement (1964)

Gibson, The Workingmans Guitar - Gibson advertisement (1967)

Wes Montgomery - Gibson advertisement (1965)

[pubylakeg]

more hyperbole and rhetoric.



Smoking is a risk factor for TB, and passing a joint that others put their mouths on, in a cold climate, in a poor part of town is too. I'm not blaming anybody but I'll be darned if I'll be blamed. I had a few things in common with CC when I was 24, as far as that goes.

i would have loved to have seen CC, Wes, and George all jamming together in the 70's and 80's. That easily could have been possible had two of them simply not smoked.

Ah yes, the tobacco industry. Another example of wholesome business practice. One of the most addictive and carcinogenic substances known to man.

Sorry if that sounds like a "declarative" statement. Would you like any others?

[fumblefingers]

Charlie didn't live long enough but I seem to recollect that Gibson advertised him playing one of their new models. I'm going out on a limb to assume there was some reciprocity involved.

Tal's guitar was a separate and new model. It was made for him. It didn't exist prior. Get it?

same with Kessel.

same with Howard Roberts

same with Herb Ellis, although it was clearly a 175 knock off

Les Paul was an inventor and essentially invented th solid body electric guitar, yes?

Johnny Smith had some very distinct mods to an L5 that made it into a similar yet different guitar.

Johnny A. A new model.

Lee Rit? New model.


all made to jack up sales, no doubt, and why the heck not?


The L5 was a model invented and evolved by Lloyd Loar and Gibson. It was an icon for decades before Wes hit the scene. When Wes got serious about the guitar he made a beeline right for it. He played the two pickup model. He was photographed with it on his album covers. He was once asked why he didn't have a fancy custom guitar and he replied something to the effect that he wanted a normal guitar that could be replaced fairly easily.

Wes did not in any way invent the Gibson L5 yet was proud to play it and be photographed with it.

Ill go out on another limb and assume there was some reciprocity between Wes and Gibson. Free guitars? A 1 pickup knock off? It's not like they were strangers, and it's not like he was unhappy.

please stop inventing false narratives and false boogeymen.

out.

[fumblefingers]

Ah yes, the tobacco industry. Another example of wholesome business practice. One of the most addictive and carcinogenic substances known to man.

Sorry if that sounds like a "declarative" statement. Would you like any others?

nope, suits me fine. It costs us all a bundle.