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IMHO
Originally Posted by jzucker
Fat is flavor ... for jazz guitars
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06-22-2015 05:21 PM
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Beautiful L5! I've always loved how Gibson does their Wine Red. That Guild sure looks sweet too!
Cheers,
Peter
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Really? You've found no difference in 250k cheap chinese pots as compared to quality 500k pots on inset humbuckers? Originally Posted by jzucker
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that's correct. Boutique pots make no difference. If they are the stated resistance they are marked with there is ZERO difference in tone. Same with capacitors. All the rainbow caps and boutique wiring harnesses are just placebo-effect replacements for guys who are OCD. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Now, reliability is a different story...
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Hmm.. I am part with Jack and part with Patrick on this one.
going from 250 to 500 pots or changing the value of the caps changes the tone to my ears (slightly)
going from Chinese pots to boutique USA pots or Asian caps to boutique USA caps doesn't change the tone a bit if the pots and caps that are exchanged are the same value..
YMMV
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[QUOTE=Stringswinger;543414]Hmm.. I am part with Jack and part with Patrick on this one.
going from 250 to 500 pots or changing the value of the caps changes the tone to my ears (slightly)
Of course it doesn't change the tone . . . if the pots and caps are of the same value. When tested, the values of the cheapies were all over the place. That's why so many immediatley pulled the pots and caps on the earlier Heritage guitars and replaced them. It's also why Heritage switched back . . . as soon as they could.going from Chinese pots to boutique USA pots or Asian caps to boutique USA caps doesn't change the tone a bit if the pots and caps that are exchanged are the same value..
YMMV
I have an earlier variant of an H150. Had the pots and caps repled with RS Guitar Works upgrade kit with '50s wiring. The difference is tremendous. Did the same thing to my R9. Less of a difference than with the H150 . . but, still a noticeable difference. Almost zero trebel bleed.
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What interests me when it gets down here is whether or not the difference in tone is larger than the margin for error one might get by - say - wearing a watch that makes their hand slightly heavier when picking. Or playing with sweaty fingers that minutely effect their left hand touch - or the density of the specific patch of carpet underneath your amp as opposed to that which would be under it if you slid the amp three inches. At some point the question stops being "is there a difference?" .., and starts being "does it matter if there's a difference?"
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A more practical (and less sarcastic) scenario would be - "okay - I can hear this here in my room but can I hear it at my restaurant gig tonight? My outdoor gig tomorrow? How do I know that what I'm hearing wouldn't be the environment, acoustics, situation, etc?"
im curious - serious question - something as tonally minute as the quality of cap - do you hear it on a gig? If so - how can you be sure that's actually what you're hearing?
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I never said changing the values doesn't change the tone. I said changing brands does not effect tone. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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And that's precisely what I've been saying here. The differences in [tonal attributes] between the guitars we've been discussing here is so negligible when comparing the Gibsons to the Heritages . . that I'm pretty confident it's not the tone that's driving buyers of L5s, Les Pauls and ES335s, to out pace comparable model Heritages at a probable ratio of 1,000 to 1. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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That would assume that the values of very cheap import brands are what they're supposed to be . . . wouldn't it? Of course going from a 250k to a 500k will make a difference. But, so too will a supposed 500k which has a true value 30% lower than what it's being said to be. Originally Posted by jzucker
CTS and Bourn are in many people's minds the gold standard for guitar pots. But, you'd need dog like hearing to distinguish one for the other. Heritage is back to using CTS exclusively and I'd imagine that CTS is private lebeling Gibsons as well. (just a guess)
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"Guys who are OCD" . . . now, that's a bit ironic . . wouldn't you say. :-) Originally Posted by jzucker
that's correct. Boutique pots make no difference. If they are the stated resistance they are marked with there is ZERO difference in tone. Same with capacitors. All the rainbow caps and boutique wiring harnesses are just placebo-effect replacements for guys who are OCD.
Now, reliability is a different story...
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Probably wouldn't make a difference at most gigs. But, that's not how or where tone freaks judge the tone they're after. Most seek the quietest spot possible so that they can hear each and every aspect of what's there and what's missing. When they find their sweet spot . . the usual reaction is . . . "that's the tone I'm after". Will that tone be replicated, or even heard buy the guitarist at a gig with a B3, Leslie . . electric bass and drum kit (with an over zealous drummer) a sax and Christopher Walken calling for . . . "more cow bell . . more cow bell"?? Hardly!! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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And what sounds great in your quiet little practice place may not sound so great with the band Originally Posted by Patrick2
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It is absolutely true that the tiny nuances become imperceptible at a gig or jam. But that doesn't make them irrelevant. We don't spend all of our playing hours in public; for many of us the majority of time is spent in our quiet spot with our ideal equipment set up. Why not be happy? If something bothers you, it bothers you.
What becomes critical at a gig is tuning stability, string action/intonation, flawless electronics, finish on the back of the neck not getting sticky, physical comfort with the weight of the guitar, strap not failing, etc.
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I'd be willing to bet that most tone freaks couldn't hear the difference between bourne pots and CTS pots of the same value. Same with cheap capacitors and rainbow caps. Originally Posted by Patrick2
A friend of mine is an electrical engineer with a specialty in audio electronics. He has scoped many of the guitar parts. He once said to me, Some do make a difference...In the 25k-35k range. Since most of us don't hear much about 12k-15k and electric guitar speaker doesn't reproduce much above 5k it's irrelevant.
He made a couple of fender style tube amps. One with NOS carbon comp resistors and old blue-tube fender style capacitors and the other with xicon caps and metal film resistors. The difference? The one with the modern parts was dead quiet. The other one hissed. The tone? No difference.
Reminds me of this test:
Audiophile Deathmatch: Monster Cables vs. a Coat Hanger
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Never said the nuances were irrelevant. I said they matter less to some than to others. Also never said that anyone's tonal virvana wasn't worth searching for. What I said was, that tonal difference alone is not what's driving people to buy more L5 model guitars . . over Heritage, Guild, Campys or anything else for that matter. I don't think that's what Bluedog or pamomusic were implying either . . (apologies to each of them for taking the liberty of speaking for them) Originally Posted by rpguitar
Keep in mind, this whole debate over tone and tonal differences began when vinnyk mentioned that if Guild started producing great guitars, that they along with Heritage might cause Gibson to start making the L5 models more affordable to the gigging pro who can't currently afford them. My rebuttal was to that notion, noting that it wasn't a tonal difference that was driving gigging pros to be disireous of what is probably the single most desireable and iconic arch top ever made. In doing so, I pointed out that there just isn't enough of a difference in tone, for it to be a driving factor in choice, for the vast majority . . the VERY vast majority. I maintain that position.
For every Roger or Jack Zucker who knows absolutely what they want tonally from an arch top guitar and will not settle for less . . there are thousands of other arch top guitar lovers who aren't nearly as knowledgeable, discerning and/or demanding. Also never said one shouldn't be happy . . or that one shouldn't be bothered by something they don't like, or something they feel is missing in a guitar (tone wise).
There are people who will look past imperfections in a guitar, or settle for something less than they hoped for in other aspects or attributes in that guitar, as long as it has the tone they seek. There are other people who will tolerate imperfections in tone (imperfections based upon their own personal opinions of what's perfect) but will not look past other attributes of a guitar, which might be equally or more important to them then "the perfect tone".
For many people, very good or even just good tone is perfectly acceptable. For some . . it absolutely MUST be . . "that" tone. I maintain that for the vast majority of the arch top guitar playing world, good tone is enough. If and when they stumble across great tone .. or "that" tone they seek . . . it's a bonus. But, it's not a mandate.
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p.s.
Gibson already tried making a cheap L5. The L5 Studio. Here's one for $2199
Archtops
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To me these days, "perfect" tone falls a bit behind "perfect" playability on Maslow's hierarchy of [guitar] needs.
In fact, I've internally referenced this hierarchy for a while:
- Playability
- Tone
- Looks
- Value
It's not really a blessing being picky, and I don't necessarily pride myself on being able to hear/sense things that others either don't hear/sense or don't care about. It's quite annoying at times. It would often be liberating to focus strictly on the substance of playing music, and less on the attributes of the instrument.
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So Jack,
Is this L-5 a keeper ?? I sure hope you find your Grail man, if you could it sounds like keeping it and the other guitar would be really smart... You can stop searching for a while and play and really have fun. Must be so frustrating to get a new guitar, and then find it just doesn't suit you for some reason. A real shame... I wish you the best on this one.
Mike
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I'm not sure it's a keeper yet. It sounds great though. To tell you the truth, I've been enjoying the more hollowbody tone that the Guild X-500 imparts. The guild also sounds amazing acoustically. However, this morning the power was out and I was playing the Guild and enjoying how great it sounds. I then put it down and picked up the L5, thinking it wouldn't sound as good but it just has that really smokey L5 sound that nothing else can produce. I have to say too that it has some thunk to it. The Heritage and Guild guitars do not have that quality. It doesn't have the same amount of thunk as my '89 175 but it's there, nonetheless. It's a GREAT L5 and has the classic L5 tone. For now it's staying and so is the Guild. Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
Something about the gibson builds yield that tone.
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I played one of those some years ago. It was an amazing guitar, and I actually prefer it to a CES aesthetically (not a big bling fan, even though my main guitar is ridiculously bling-y). Shoulda bought it. Oh well ... Originally Posted by jzucker
Last weekend I played a new L5CES and a new (red) Wes Mo side by side. The Studio was a long time ago, and memories can be unreliable (plus the set-ups on these two weren't so great), but I'd say that Studio played better than either of these. The Wes Mo was the best sounding of the bunch, but the Studio was close. The Wes Mo destroyed the CES. The CES was "feh, this might as well be a cheap laminate," and the Wes Mo was "wow, so that's what all the fuss is about."
John
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My L5 has a tone I haven't found on any other arch top. I've only owned a few and haven't played nearly as many as most of you, but I love everything about it, except the feedback, which is a minor issue.
But...
I'm keeping my GB10 for its snap and sparkle and it's absolutely perfect neck and my sadowsky JH because it makes me work hard, play more precisely and focus better. I think the latter is because of the relative lack of sustain, more midrange-y tone and string separation. I didn't like it at first as much as I'd hoped, but I realize now that it makes me a better player and adds to my tonal palette. All 3 very different guitars, but the L5 lets me cheat more, which may not always be a good thing. I had it feitenized years ago, not sure I think that was necessary, now. Plays like proverbial butter.
Re pots, it's way more important to me to have quiet pots with a smooth taper that doesn't ramp up suddenly at the end. I do think I can hear the tone roll off on volume pots on strats, at least. That's the only guitar that makes a difference to me and even then I'm not sure the mod makes it better, just different. I don't care about it on Teles and don't need it on humbuckers, but having a smooth, solid pot with a good audio taper and no noise is a must for me.
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I have a GB10 also but it has the worst setup of all my archtops. not bad by any means but it's action is higher than anything else. I've mentioned i'm considering refretting it but my luthier is very slow and I hate to be without it for 7-8 weeks, especially since it's the most giggable of my hollowbodies and I'm going to be pretty busy this summer. I could use my Eastman T386 but it's not as inspirational to play for jazz as the GB is. Another possibility would be to tape the F-Holes on the X-500 and hope that I can play it loud without feeding back...
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Originally Posted by jzucker
I've been using Doug's Plugs for over 10 yrs and they work great.
after years of playing in loud Hammond B-3 bands and having to palm-mute everything, it was great just to be able to concentrate on playing instead of taming howling.Last edited by wintermoon; 06-23-2015 at 01:11 PM.
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