Got my Gibson L-5 Wes Montgomery today

**Patrick2** · 06-24-2015, 10:50 PM

Agreed, Greg. I don't find them to be bright at all. Jack too corrected his statement to further clarify what he meant by bright. Infact, I think that Jack nails the differences between L5s and GEs pretty accurately. I think Greentone too is dead nuts on with his assessments.

**Max405** · 06-24-2015, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I think you could probably replace the word, bright . . . with the word alive. That's a very real characteristic is a Heritage arch top. They are amazingly alive from the very first time they're strung up and taken for a short test run by Rendal Wall at his bench in the Heritage plant. They do open up beyond what they sound like originally. But, they're very alive immediatly after completion of the build. By contrast, if Joe DeNisco played my Wesmo the first week I got it . . . he might have not bought it, unless he knew it would open up. It sounds wonderful now. But, it's still not as alive as a GE with an inset pup.

Edit for an after thought; if you've somehow sampled a GE with a floater and a tap refined/tune top . . they are indeed bright. So to is the tap tuned (by Aaron Cowles) Heritage Johnny Smith model.

The more time goes by, the more I appreciate your old/my new L5 and my heritage Johnny smith. The L5 is more acoustic then I thought it would be. If I adopted your style holding the guitar (classical style), it would sound even better. I smother it because thats he only way I can play. The L5 is a beautiful guitar and I would have bought it when it was a baby. The fact that it's opened up is a bonus. The HJS is different animal altogether. Its more lively for sure and if I didn't have the L5, it would my all around favorite. The L5 is a bank vault with strings on it. The HJS is an amazing guitar with the original signature of my all time idol on the label. I'll be honest, if an acoustic archtop is what I crave, my L7c is my pick.
Joe D

**2bornot2bop** · 06-24-2015, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

The more time goes by, the more I appreciate your old/my new L5 and my heritage Johnny smith. The L5 is more acoustic then I thought it would be. If I adopted your style holding the guitar (classical style), it would sound even better. I smother it because thats he only way I can play. The L5 is a beautiful guitar and I would have bought it when it was a baby. The fact that it's opened up is a bonus. The HJS is different animal altogether. Its more lively for sure and if I didn't have the L5, it would my all around favorite. The L5 is a bank vault with strings on it. The HJS is an amazing guitar with the original signature of my all time idol on the label. I'll be honest, if an acoustic archtop is what I crave, my L7c is my pick.
Joe D

Great and apt description of the L5 used in the same sentence as "bank vault."

Someday I'd be curious to tonally compare an acoustic GE with the LeGrande. I wonder if in fact the GE would possess the thinner carved top. If I ever see an iced tea LeGrande I'm dun for I swear.

**Patrick2** · 06-24-2015, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Great and apt description of the L5 used in the same sentence as "bank vault."

Someday I'd be curious to tonally compare an acoustic GE with the LeGrande. I wonder if in fact the GE would possess the thinner carved top. If I ever see an iced tea LeGrande I'm dun for I swear.

I think fumblefingers recently got an iced tea LeGrande. Maybe not ff . . but, I know somebody did . . and posted some great pics of their NGD about 8 or ten months ago. When I saw it, I damned near bust a nut behind that pic!!!

I had a chance to buy a LeGrande years ago when Buzzy's shop, Lark Street Guitars, was still up in Albany NY . . before he moved to Teaneck NJ. If memory serves, it was pre owned and it was around $3,500. I played it but it was quite a while ago and I just don't remember what my opinion was on its tone. Foolishly . . I let the fact that the tail piece (finger) was a far cry from its predecessor, the L5 TP with Johnny Smith's name engraved, cause me to look away from the guitar. It was a blond . . and quite a pretty one at that.

**2bornot2bop** · 06-24-2015, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I think fumblefingers recently got an iced tea LeGrande. Maybe not ff . . but, I know somebody did . . and posted some great pics of their NGD about 8 or ten months ago. When I saw it, I damned near bust a nut behind that pic!!!

I had a chance to buy a LeGrande years ago when Buzzy's shop, Lark Street Guitars, was still up in Albany NY . . before he moved to Teaneck NJ. If memory serves, it was pre owned and it was around $3,500. I played it but it was quite a while ago and I just don't remember what my opinion was on its tone. Foolishly . . I let the fact that the tail piece (finger) was a far cry from its predecessor, the L5 TP with Johnny Smith's name engraved, cause me to look away from the guitar. It was a blond . . and quite a pretty one at that.

I recall the recent WesMo at Daves guitars in ITB. That's bad enuf.
Okay a blonde LeGrande for $3500 today sells used for near double that price.
Agreed on the ITB!
i swear, if someone post pics I'm not peeking.

**jzucker** · 06-25-2015, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I think you could probably replace the word, bright . . . with the word alive. That's a very real characteristic is a Heritage arch top. They are amazingly alive from the very first time they're strung up and taken for a short test run by Rendal Wall at his bench in the Heritage plant. They do open up beyond what they sound like originally. But, they're very alive immediatly after completion of the build. By contrast, if Joe DeNisco played my Wesmo the first week I got it . . . he might have not bought it, unless he knew it would open up. It sounds wonderful now. But, it's still not as alive as a GE with an inset pup.

Edit for an after thought; if you've somehow sampled a GE with a floater and a tap refined/tune top . . they are indeed bright. So to is the tap tuned (by Aaron Cowles) Heritage Johnny Smith model.

Yes, I have and one of the sweet 16s I owned was a floater. I have owned a couple johnny smith guitars and neither had that brightness though.

**Max405** · 06-25-2015, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Yes, I have and one of the sweet 16s I owned was a floater. I have owned a couple johnny smith guitars and neither had that brightness though.

I could see it getting a little bright depending on your string choice. When the TI 12 jazz be bop's break in, they sound perfect on the HJS. But a brighter string will zing up pretty nicely on the HJS. Only problem with the HJS, feedback playing at stage volume with a band.
Jack, question - have you ever owned a Gibson Johnny Smith? If so, how does it compare to the Heritage? I am curious because before my time is up, there will probably be a Gibson JS in my future.
thanks, Joe D

**jzucker** · 06-25-2015, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

I could see it getting a little bright depending on your string choice. When the TI 12 jazz be bop's break in, they sound perfect on the HJS. But a brighter string will zing up pretty nicely on the HJS. Only problem with the HJS, feedback playing at stage volume with a band.
Jack, question - have you ever owned a Gibson Johnny Smith? If so, how does it compare to the Heritage? I am curious because before my time is up, there will probably be a Gibson JS in my future.
thanks, Joe D

Yes, I was referring to the Gibson Johnny Smith with my comments. I had a '75 johnny smith that Pat Martino used for a while and had traded me his starbright koontz for but sam koontz nixed the deal so I got the js back.

**vinnyv1k** · 06-25-2015, 01:41 PM

The original Gibson Johnny Smith has a very different (better IMO) sound than the LeGrand. The original JS pickup is far superior than the BJB on the LeGrand again IMO. I had a 1979 JS that had a lovely sound and I am not a floater kind of guy. I have a Gibson JS pickup on my D and it sounds lovely also. You can still get the JS pickup on the Lee Rit model but that is it. I will get flamed for this but I think the Gibson BJB pickup is a horrible sounding pickup. The LeGrand would be a complete winner with a JS pickup instead of the BJB. They were putting the BJB on the later Herb Ellis 165's also and they sounded horrible too or at least to my ears. I have dog ears. Can't take harsh sounds. I compare the 2 pickups like comparing a NOS RCA 12ax7 black plate to a Sovtek.

**jzucker** · 06-25-2015, 02:01 PM

i'm not sure what the BJB pickup is but for some reason, many of the mini humbuckers went to a ceramic magnet several years ago. Dimarzio did this and the Ibanez Benson guitars use a dimarzio mini and they went from a warm, alnico magnet to a ceramic magnet which yields a brighter sound. To combat this, they overwound the pickup so it's 12k or 14k instead of the 7k of the originals. This makes it much hotter and to my ears is brighter. My luthier who does some of benson's guitars told me that benson gets his newer GB pickups rewould to vintage specs. Not surprising.

**vinnyv1k** · 06-25-2015, 04:10 PM

Also Jack I don't know about you but for me adjustable pole screws are a must on a pickup which the BJB doesn't have.

**2bornot2bop** · 06-25-2015, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

The original Gibson Johnny Smith has a very different (better IMO) sound than the LeGrand. The original JS pickup is far superior than the BJB on the LeGrand again IMO. I had a 1979 JS that had a lovely sound and I am not a floater kind of guy. I have a Gibson JS pickup on my D and it sounds lovely also. You can still get the JS pickup on the Lee Rit model but that is it. I will get flamed for this but I think the Gibson BJB pickup is a horrible sounding pickup. The LeGrand would be a complete winner with a JS pickup instead of the BJB. They were putting the BJB on the later Herb Ellis 165's also and they sounded horrible too or at least to my ears. I have dog ears. Can't take harsh sounds. I compare the 2 pickups like comparing a NOS RCA 12ax7 black plate to a Sovtek.

Hey Vinny. I've never owned a JS pickup. I've heard the compelling argument that the JS offers user adjustments while the BJB does not. I own a Super Eagle acoustic with the BJB. In my limited experience I find the BJB on this specific guitar superior to any other floating pickup I"ve previously owned. I prefer the BJB to the KA 12 pole floaters I've had on a Super KB and a few GE's. The discussion of the BJB came up about a year ago when oddly enough I was surprised to learn that an experienced player like Danny W. noted he preferred the BJB to the JS. I forget the reasons he stated why, but that conversation is easily found doing a search for BJB pickup.

Sound is always so subjective, and with pickups results change with the guitars they're being used on. But the audiophile in me had to smile after any mention of a NOS vs. Sovtek tube. I spent nearly a year in St. Petersburg, home of the Sovtek...any mention of a Sovtek brings back fond memories. Thanks for the memories

edit - Here's that BJB thread....it seems I'm not the only fan of the BJB:

Gibson BJB pickup - History anyone?

**rpguitar** · 06-25-2015, 06:14 PM

I once had a BJB on an L-5CN and currently have a JS on another L-5CN. The BJB is more punchy and electric sounding, whereas the JS is brighter and more articulate. The JS bugs me sometimes for those qualities. It does respond well to dialing back on the tone control, however. But I'd like a BJB with adjustable pole pieces most of all, I think.

Interestingly, the JS on my current L-5C plus flat wounds produces the most classic Benson tone of any archtop in my possession to date.

**vinnyv1k** · 06-25-2015, 06:53 PM

One thing is for sure. We all have very strong opinions here but that is a good thing. I am kind of a dinosaur set in his ways. Pole screws are very important on a floater as their is no pickup height adjustment as with a P90 and without them you are going to have a string volume unbalance or at least I did on the 2 Gibsons I had with BJB's. I had real bad feedback problems with the BJB's also but nothing worse than a too quiet high E and a very loud B string. A lot of guys love the BJB so on the right axe they must be great. They just didn't work out for me. Hey we are all chasing tone like dogs chasing their tails. Jack gets a lot of flack for all the axes he goes through but I perfectly understand. He is a tone chaser just like me. I believe most of us here would admit to being a tone junkie to some degree. Some are more "strung out" than others but we all need that tone fix.

**Bluedawg** · 06-25-2015, 07:36 PM

My experience with my Le Grand and my Sweet 16 with a non BJB floater ... and sampling other floater archtops when I get the chance .... is that you need to match up a floater with the right amp

Otherwise they can sound thin and bright

But also what sounds bright at home can sound pretty good with a band in a room full of people

**Patrick2** · 06-25-2015, 10:33 PM

[QUOTE=jzucker;544426]

i don't use them. I always screw them down level

(regarding pole screws) . . . This is very suprising to me . . shocking, actually

**3625** · 06-25-2015, 11:12 PM

IME with Thomastik flats it's necessary to adjust the pole pieces - the high E & B strings are significantly louder than the wrapped strings. Probably less of an issue the thicker the gauge, but I use 12's and the difference in volume between strings is quite noticeable.

**Patrick2** · 06-25-2015, 11:16 PM

[QUOTE=jzucker;544508]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

i've found there's no need to adjust them unless you're in a situation with a floater that you can't adjust the height with. I also don't like anything sticking up outside the pickup housing that my pick or nails can hit.

I guess that's what I find most surprising . . your willingness to forgo improved tonal and volume balance, in consideration of not having to alter your pick attack to not hit the screws. But, I guess if you see no need to adjust them then you must believe that there is really no reason to have the pole screw heights consistent with the neck contour .. as the strings would be on the nut and an ebony saddle.?.? Also, if you're raising the whole pup closer to the strings . . aren't you risking hitting the actual pup with your pick?

Being able to contour the ebony saddle is one of the reasons I prefer it to a TOM. The contour is even more important with a strat at a nominal 7" radius. That's why it was designed with individual saddles and each having adjustable height. It's also why the original strats had the staggered magnet heights.

With the strings obviously conforming to the same radius of the nut and saddle (assuming the nut and the saddle have the correct radius and are slotted correctly) do you not feel the difference in the distance they are from the pole screws (if the pole screws are level with the pup cover) matters? I'm not sure how it could not.?.?

All of my arch tops, except for two have ebony saddles. Each of them are contoured to match the fret board's 12" radius. The exception is the screw under the B string . . which is about 1/32" below the pup cover. I do find the balance across all strings to be very consistent. Also, the adjustability is the key feature (not the only feature) that makes the Dearmond RC 1100 more desireable than the 1000. It's also a key element of Kent Armstrong's pups with his trade mark open hex pole screws.

**vinnyv1k** · 06-26-2015, 12:34 AM

I agree with Patrick. Adjusting pickup height will only ballpark you. The pole screws are there for a very important reason. Nothing worse than different string volumes. Every pickup is a little different but I can tell you on my Gibson made 57 pickups I usually need to raise the high E & G quite a bit and sink the B screw and follow the radius curve on the D,A,E screws and that gives me exact string volumes.

**jzucker** · 06-26-2015, 06:34 AM

As none of these guys adjusted their pole pieces, I think i'll manage.

pat metheny, george benson, pat martino, wes montgomery, joe pass and barney kessel (if only he'd had them).

And what would this guy know about pickups or archtop tone?

Got my Gibson L-5 Wes Montgomery today-b-62-jpg

Got my Gibson L-5 Wes Montgomery today-b-62-jpg

**rpguitar** · 06-26-2015, 06:50 AM

I just bought a Slaman archtop that was built alongside one for Pat Metheny. The luthier himself told me that Pat wanted a Charlie Christian pickup but "better in balance" - which meant able to be adjusted across the strings. As such, a CC pickup with pole pieces was developed and installed on Pat's guitar. My money's on the fact that a screwdriver has touched them, whether in Pat's hands or a tech's.

Pole pieces have a profound effect on tone - not just string to string balance, but high frequency response and sharpness of attack/compression. It's totally cool not to care about that or leverage it, but it doesn't make it objectively non-useful for other folks seeking tonal options.

**jzucker** · 06-26-2015, 07:00 AM

pat metheny's guitar on his ibanez guitars have the polepieces adjusted flat. Just sayin'...

And for the record *I* never said it was objectively non-useful.

**m_d** · 06-26-2015, 07:32 AM

Don't sell the Guild! Can't you just keep both?

**rpguitar** · 06-26-2015, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

pat metheny's guitar on his ibanez guitars have the polepieces adjusted flat. Just sayin'...

Doesn't look that way to me - the pattern is uneven and you can see quarter turns, which implies purposeful adjustment:

http://music.newcity.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/pat-metheny-photo-4-extralarge_1261073877537.jpg

Got my Gibson L-5 Wes Montgomery today-screen-shot-2015-06-26-8-31-36-am-png

Got my Gibson L-5 Wes Montgomery today-screen-shot-2015-06-26-8-31-36-am-png

**jzucker** · 06-26-2015, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by m_d

Don't sell the Guild! Can't you just keep both?

Right now, i'll probably keep both. I actually find myself playing the Guild more than the L5. It has a brightness and crispy attack that's missing from the L5. Plus, it's got a little more acoustic property to the tone whereas the L5 sounds more electric. And the guild has a vintage feel to the tone that reminds me of a bygone jazz guitar era. The L5 sounds great too, they are very different. Each one sounds and feels like my favorite when I'm playing it.