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A $7000 tele is like a $100 Wagyu Beef hamburger. Yeah, you could do it but why?
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01-10-2015 03:02 PM
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I had a Tal Farlow and slung it out to a dealer because it was probably the worst guitar I had ever played. Tonally dead, rattles everywhere and the string balance was laughable.
It was a £4000 joke.
Over 70% of Gibson's line up I doubt they give a crap about, what it sounds like or how well it put together is irrelevant because they're selling to fanboys, or kids who don't know better.
Sending a guitar out with too much relief on a maxed out truss rod is essentially saying
"Hope you don't know crap about guitars cause we're gonna rip you off for some serious money right now and hope you don't notice in time for the warranty to run out, sucker"
And I bet they do it every single day.
As I'v said before the amount of time and money I waist buying second hand Gibson's and the amount of due diligence I have to go through, almost makes it not worth bothering with.
Thats sad as a guitar fanatic and player/collector. I wish someone was allowed to make the designs properly for the right money, instead of big corps coming along and using the designs to rip us off again.
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Why indeed. But yet, some people pay it. It's just like everything else people buy that they really don't need. They see it, they like it, they want it, they can afford it . . . so, they buy it. We've all been there done that in one way or another.
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
By the way, I've had a Wagyu Beef hamburger . . in mid town Manhattan, where it's very pricey. It was only $65 dollars and it was topped with fois gras and black truffle!! It was horrible!! I'm glad I wasn't stupid enough to order it. The client I was with insisted that I try one. I told him . . not if I'm picking up the check. The only way I would pay $65 for a hamburger, was if I could eat it out of Charlize Theron's navel . . in which case horse meat would suffice. So, this bone head ordered for me and insisted on picking up the check. I will admit to loving the Opus 1 he ordered to wash it down with. He was insistent on impressing me. So, I made believe I was impressed.
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Patrick, I am just stating facts that I have personally encontoured from 1972 to 2014. If you think I am full of it than that is your God given right. I have been to the Nashville plant and even Kalamazoo in the day. Never the Memphis plant though. I have personally picked out woods to be used on one of my Nashville guitars. Every Nashville luthier loves me. Hey I buy guitars yearly from them and put their kids through college. I have never seen a bad guitar come out of the Nashville custom shop ever. Kalamazoo, Memphis, and Gibson USA is a totally different story. I really don't care that you do not believe me. God bless and best of luck selling your Gibson L5 and 335.
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Going back over this thread I see people saying things like
"Henry Saved Gibson"
and "Its the People at Gibson and their popularity as a company, that means they must be doing something right"
Well I see it completely the opposite way.
Gibson are usually saved by an Artist or musician who picks up one of their guitars and gets famous. All Gibson then have to do is try their best to hang on to the wave. Its been happening that way every decade or so. Why do you think Gibson literally throw their guitars and endorse artists? Because its been the one things thats saved them time and time again.
They got lucky, in the early days many 'different' companies ago some people designed some great guitar (over 60 years ago now). The likes of Norlin and the current owners, have been cashing in on that ever since. Whoever stumps up the money to buy the patents gets a licence to print money.
Unfortunately like any big Corp, production goes up, value goes down. Gibson are just not in a situation to happen to give a crap, again because they have the patent to the most wanted designs in the world.
Im not saying there's not some great builders and people on the shop floor who care but go above that and you get suits and a marketing department that makes Goebbels look like an amateur.
Thats the facts.
In the end its my opinion that weekend players, fanboys and collectors and speculators are what keeps most of Gibson alive.
But beware dear latest member to the prestigious 'Gibson Club House'. Gibson don't like things like Bi-truss rods or even carbon fibre reinforced necks).
You might have payed a lot of money to get in but your still a peasant, who deserves to be treated as such.Last edited by Archie; 01-10-2015 at 03:50 PM.
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Thanks Patrick, I guess I didn't really know what I was talking about ... I still can't imagine to pay that amount of money for a tele style guitar (or a les Paul for that matter). A great archtop, yes, maybe, but a solid planck guitar - rather not ... If others want to - cool, no problem, none of my business. In my experience, great, custom made, top notch hardware solidbodies go for 3-4k. How much more care can you invest in woods or hardware or the build process in order to justify going that high? Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Careful, ArchtopHeaven . . your resentfulness and school boy envy is showing again. Ya gotta work on that, let it go. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
So now, there are in your reluctant admission, some great builders and people on the floor . . but it's the suits upstairs that you have a problem with? You flip flop more than a Washington politician who's re-election is in jeopardy.
"That's the facts" (we say those are the facts)
Really? Impressive!! You got the facts. You must be dialed in to Gibson hierarchy in a way that some only dream of.
"Gibson don't (over here we say, *doesn't*) like things like Bi truss rods even carbon reinforced necks"
Well, neither did D'Aquisto, D'Angelico and neither does Benedetto, Lacey, Campellone, Monteleone . . etc., etc., etc. I guess they don't care about the little guy either?
"In the end it's my opinion that weekend players, fanboys, collectors and speculators are what keeps Gibson alive".
Don't tell that to guys like Danny W., or the pros like Kenny Burrell, Pat Metheney, Larry Carlton, Lee Rit, Slash, Joe Bonomassa, Keef, Louis Stewart, and hundreds, if not thousands of other pro level full time working professional musicians throughout the world, not just Nashville.
"Like any big Corp, production goes up, value goes down"
Really? You truly are clueless. Either that, or your hatred for Gibson is blinding your common sense. Gibson's production has been rising continuously. So too have it's price points . . most especially in its Custom Shops, in both production and price points. So too have there sales. Therefore, the value of the guitars is going up, not down. Further to that, except for highly desireable collector grade vintage guitars, Gibson still offeres the best percentage of ROI . . of any other factory produced brand.
And yes, Henry and his team of investors and managers did save Gibson. Do your research homework. Gibson still had many pro level loyalists when they were going broke. Henry's team came in and relieved the company from its many impediments . . including union demands. He took the company to the world capitol of guitar music . . Nashville and Memphis TN. He also instilled intellegent fiscal management and stopped the bleeding. All the fanboys, collectors, weekend warriors and speculators couldn't have saved the company from the way it was being run.
"Gibson are not (we say is not) in a situation to happen to give a crap"
You really have no clue what so ever how the real business world works .. do you. You actually believe that even with the vast proliferation of high quality competitors offering really nice products at a fraction of the cost of a Gibson, that Gibson can stay afloat with a very high percentage of poor quality products, priced at double the cost of their competitors? You might need a reality check on your logic.
"They got lucky, in the early days many 'different' companies ago some people designed some great guitar (over 60 years ago now)."
So now your resentfulness of the company and the brand is even driving you to deny them their just due for the successes they realized "in the early days"?? Wow!! Yeah, they got lucky alright . . and the harder thay worked, and the more they recruited and trained talented people . . the luckier they got. You say that Norlin rode the coat tails of the previous owners' and cashed in on it there "luck"?? Norlin lost its shirt . . and its drawers too, due to poor management and ill conceived direction. It's strange how Norlin almost put Gibson out of business due to shitty quality . . even when Gibson had but a fraction of the competition that they do today. Yet, today's [perceived] poor quality, or at least the exaggerated high incidence of it, isn't even coming close to putting them out of business . . or even eroding their price points at the street level. Are you kidding me??
Must we continue with this? Do you still not see how over stated your poor opinion of Gibson and its products is??
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What breaks my heart, is that so many Gibson's on the second hand market, I can't even buy because i refuse to pass them on to someone else.
Call me what you will but thats the truth.
I would love it, if someone took the patents for Gibson and said, this is a national brand, you can't own this. Anyone who wants to make one go ahead and then we buy based on the luthier. not some greedy Copr that hogs the patents and treats us like peasants.
Thats what i want. Public ownership of all Gibson Patents. Its been well over 60 years, since these models were designed. The designers probably long gone.
Models:
Les Paul,
Lea Paul Jnr
L5
L4
L7
Es-175
Sg
I mean the list goes on and on. Yet it gets hijacked by these guitar thugs (mafioso) who keep it to themselves and make us pay. You think Henry is the last? You thought Norlin was the First?
Thats the crime, its a crime agains guitar players. Let the patents go free now, stop the legal BS which only serves Corporate self interest.
These guitars are universal treasures and shouldn't be allowed to be extorted by some suit.
yeh Perfect world I know, it aint.
Sermon over.
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At the moment the thing that interests me is whether the Nashville made ES-335s are really much better than the ones made in Memphis. I never had a chance to try one from the Nashville factory.
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Ya see Jazz_175, this is where things tend to get generalized waaaaaay too much. Are Nashville Custom Shop built 335 reissues better than Memphis Custom built Shop 335 reissues? Yes . . some of them are. Are Memphis Custom Shop built 335s better than Nashville Custom Shop built 335 reissues? Yes . . some of them are. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
The same can be said for original 1959 Les Paul Standards . . and Gibson Custom Shop R9s . . as well as most any other pair of similar guitars built in different eras or different locations.
If you were to take a piece of hardned steel, from the same production run in the same foundry . . and then reduced it to two similar components, designed and controled by computer assisted robotics . . you'd have two items with each identical to each other. But, that's not how a raw material taken from a nature grown environment, and crafted by the inconsistencies of human element work. Which of these two examples would you say best compares to arch top building in specifics . . and guitar building in general.
I would feel very comfortable in stating that there are more than likely some 335 type guitars as well as L5 type guitars built in Japan or China . . that are better than some of those same original models that came out of Gibson. I would feel very comfortable in stating that some of the Gil Yaron 1959 replica Les Paul Standard models are better than some of the original '59 bursts, some as well as some of the R9s.
Unless we generalize to the extreme, it's really impossible to judge similar guitars based upon which factory they were made at. Heck, I would even go so far as to say that there are more than likely some Gibson Les Paul Standard models produced at Gibson's mass production facility aka Gibson USA . . that are better guitars than some of the R9s. I'm sure you get the gist of what I'm saying, without me having to give additional examples.
Judge a guitar only by its own merits, attributes and qualities . . not against those of other similar guitars. That's pretty much my credo.
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You can find great Gibsons, good Gibsons and crap Gibsons. It all depends on your ability to evaluate the guitar before you buy it. If you get a crap one, it's your own fault. Same with anything. An educated buyer gets the best stuff. You can try and over generalize but it means nothing. Saying that a $1000 guitar made in China or Korea is as good as a $10,000 Gibson may be a technically accurate statement, but it's also a very subjective statement. There is one thing that $1K guitar will never be and that's a $10K Gibson. Nor will it appreciate as a Gibson will. The Gibson could be crap according to your evaluation, but it will still be valued higher by the market, and will appreciate as is historically proven, making it still the better investment. Not a fan boy statement - a pragmatic boy statement. Old guys aren't going to change Gibson one way or the other by not buying Archtops.
So, get the guitar that fits your budget and your ability to appreciate it and play some jazz on it. You will be happy. If you want it to be an investment as well, learn as much as you can and take a shot. So far, Gibson wins. Not sure we will ever see Eastman or Peerless in that winning position (investment-wise).
bob
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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
I'm reasonably certain that this is the first time my name has ever appeared in a sentence with the likes of Kenny et al, and I'm sure they all would be unhappy about it, after first asking "Who is Danny W. and why is he being mentioned with me?" Truth is I rarely play out more than 104 times a year these days, so I'm technically a weekend player (although many of our gigs are on weekdays), I've certainly been a collector and I make no pretense about that fact that I'm a fanboy. Gibson has always treated me well and the guitars I currently own are outstanding, so why wouldn't I be? Many fanboys have no point of reference, but I've played most of the guitars suggested as Gibson alternatives, and owned quite a few too, so the fact that all I play is Gibson is based on experience rather than blind devotion. That and the fact that my current guitars are among the best I've ever played by any maker. Originally Posted by Patrick2
It's a shame that it's not possible to discuss Gibson guitars here without the same posters repeatedly hijacking the threads for a round of bashing with the same tired tirades. I've owned around 150 Gibsons, new and used, and the number of guitars defective beyond some additional setup has numbered six, total. Gibson replaced my blonde Wes when it developed a back-bow at age sixteen, re-topped and refinished my tangerineburst L-5CES Signature when the top split (did I mention living in the desert?), replaced the board on my '68 JS when fretboard developed a bit too much curve in '73 and replaced the pickup on a '78 LPA when it failed, all under warranty at no charge to me. So maybe my experience has differed from that of some of the bashers, but I find it hard to believe I just had a fifty-five-year run of great luck.
Danny W.
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Fair play..that's superb service.
I guess that's because they honour the warrenty for USA residents.
I had a problem with a Martin and was told the warrenty was only valid for USA purchases/residents.
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Thanks, Danny. Originally Posted by Danny W.
I have encountered an incredibly small number of Gibsons that have issues. I too have owned a lot - perhaps 200 since 1968 when I started playing with my first LP Custom in 1968. And I have worked in guitar stores that were Gibson dealers, so I'd venture I have had my hands on a couple of thousand. Do they need setup when they come into the store? Sure. Most do. But not more than a 15 minute tweak, typically.
As I said in my previous post, it's really up to the buyer to make sure they get a good guitar that is right for them and that takes knowledge. I have never owned a bad guitar that I played before I bought. If a person does, then the problem is their fault, not the guitar's. Coming here and complaining about stuff like that is more of a report on their own capabilities than the quality of the guitars. Caveat Emptor and all that...
So, yes, years of great guitars and never owning one that went south, make me a fanboy. I don't always agree with their decisions, such as the automatic tuning heads on the '15 models. Or most of their newer designs. But I take no issue with their quality. The only time in history I saw more than their share of guitars arriving at the dealer needing work, was the Norlin period. But even those have a much greater return on investment than knockoffs. Those were Gibson's dark days. Yet, they still kicked out a much higher percentage of good guitars from the factory than Fender does today or has ever. Talk about guitars that need a major overhaul from the moment they get dropped on the loading dock...
Bob
ps: if you are suggesting a 'fact,' please cite it. Lines like ”most importers say Gibson send them junk’ or 'most people get bad Gibson guitars' need citations to provide factual evidence. Simply saying stuff like that may help your agenda, but it ain't true until it's 'true'.Last edited by uburoibob; 01-15-2015 at 09:19 AM.
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I guess if I experienced the problems Danny W mentioned he had with his Gibsons, I would not consider myself lucky. Warranty or not.
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Well, for what is worth let me say what is my experience with Gibson guitars.
I've only owned three (not hundreds) Gibsons and still own them. So I cannot for sure do some statistics.
1 - 1988 Gibson Es-347. Is that in the Norlin era?
It seems to me it is a superb guitar, although the pickups could be a bit weird.
2 - 2010 Gibson Es-175. Excellent guitar. I tried five of them in the store before choosing the one that I finally purchased. It plays very loud unplugged and very well balanced. The fingerboard seems to be made with a certain care.
3- 2008 Gibson Es-335, Memphis factory. I bought it second-hand. When played unplugged sounds a bit dead, kind of a compressed sound. When amplified it's fine, I like it.
I also own a Collings I-35 and I cannot help comparing the Colling's fingerboard with the 335's one. Colling's fingerboard is of much higher quality.
The acoustic and amplified sound of the Collings has better definition and richness, however the 335 has been my main guitar over the last years. My idea: trade the 335 for another 335, maybe one of those historic reissues that are supposed to be better built. At the moment I cannot see myself without a 335 among my guitars.
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If you bought 6 guitars and all 6 had those problems .... I would agree .. Originally Posted by KEOKI
But Danny's experience was 6 out of 150 ..... that's a 4% failure rate .... and the company took care of him in those instances
A 4% failure rate ain't to bad for products made of wood .... epsecially if the warranty fixes the problem
If you buy 150 if any product ... you're going to find a few with problems
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That one is from the post-Norlin, Henry Juszkiewicz era. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
Bob
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ESPECIALLY, since most of those issues could easily have been chalked up not to manufacturing/materials failures, but to environmental issues. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
Bob
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What effect, if any, do you believe the Eastman 371 has had on Gibson's decision to drop their regular production ES175?
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I doubt that it has had any effect. I believe sales of jazz guitars are down and Gibson goes where the money is. Originally Posted by Klatu
Bob
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Its probably more to do with the appearance that they are charging you more for less of a guitar, if you compare the regular to the VOS. Originally Posted by Klatu
No doubt they will re-issue it soon enough, at a higher price and use the price of the VOS range, to make you think your paying for the extra quality. Flamed woods, double pick-up etc, you know, the stuff epopel now are moaning about. I prefer the ones without flame etc.
Its the usual marketing BS that Gibson LOVE.
After all you can't have someone buying an empty box for more $$$$ when your also selling full box for less. That would make you look opportunistic lol
It would also make your empty box look over priced and since the empty box IS overpriced AND cheaper to produce, take away the competition in the range only to bring it back 'by demand' for a limited run, with $2000 heaped on the top and watch the people with too much money swoop in.
Thats how Gibson works, haven't you been paying attention ;-)Last edited by Archie; 01-15-2015 at 03:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bluedawg
All right all all you math majors. You can't start throwing stats around without someone crying foul. Unless you can account for the failure rate of the number of Gibsons out of the 150 he no longer owned your 4% failure rate is BS.
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I guess that same logic holds true for all guitars. So, anecdotally, he is accurate but factually a 4% failure rate cannot be proven. And I would doubt that it would be anywhere near that high, anyway. My guess would be one in 1000, based on what I have seen as well as what I know about manufacturing. Originally Posted by KEOKI
Most Eastmans I have played have had something wrong at the start of their lives. Usually something to do with the neck. Certainly, they are inconsistent. So, tough to toss percentages around. But I think because people don't expect a guitar in the price range of most Eastmans to be perfect, such anomalies are forgiven.
Then, I guess we have to go with market share. Were there a general problem with anyone's guitar, said company would have some real problems. Gibson seems to be doing just fine. So, yeah, I guess the Yankees analogy is good, the deviation would be that Gibson gets into the World Series and wins most of the time.
bob
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Well someone likes throwing numbers around (obviously I hope thats not taken personably, I consider this to be light hearted banter). Originally Posted by uburoibob
Oh sure Gibson win every time, thats why they couldn't exist without GC and the mafioso style corporate, hedge fund, system, their money swims in.
Gibson are one music store away from bust, lets not make false idols here ;-)
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