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In the early 80s, I was in a position to buy a great guitar--no kids yet; great job; wife said yes, etc. I traveled and played everything in about a 200 mile radius. The custom builders hadn't yet really hit the scene in a big way, so I was playing Gibsons, Guilds, Yamahas, Ibanezes, Epiphones, etc. Out of every archtop I played, at that point, new and used, the best sounding archtop I found (acoustically) was a new Gibson Kalamazoo Award. I bargained to a very nice price with the dealer, who had been sitting on the guitar in inventory for several years. To this day, I don't believe that I have ever played a significantly better sounding acoustic archtop, except perhaps my first instructor's D'Angelico--and I am not sure about that. However, electrically, none of the carved guitars had the sound that the better Gibson ES-175 guitars had--I am talking about the 50s and early 60s guitars, here. There is just something about the "175" that sounds _exceptional_ (IMO) when it comes to jazz. Perhaps it is because I listened extensively during the 70s to all of the Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, and Ellis/Pass Duo albums, but I had just come to associate _that_ tone with jazz. Chord melody, single lines, you name it. You guessed it...I ended up passing at the last minute on the KA when a family friend made an exceptionally great sounding 175 available. To this day, it is my "death bed" guitar.
I have noticed in recent years that other luthiers have done great things with laminates. Moll, Unger, and Benedetto have all built amazing laminate archtop guitars that I have played that sound fantastic--both acoustically and electrically. They are using _thin_ laminates that are well driven by the tension of the strings. Time will tell whether the tops display a tendency to sink, but the guitars sure do sound alive. I watched Jimmy Bruno play one of Dale Unger's American Archtops at a show that sounded very "carved" to me. I was amazed when I held the guitar by the shallow neck angle, the laminate construction, etc. The sound belied the modern design.
Does anyone besides me choose a laminate, not because it tames feedback or is better on the road, but because it gets "the sound?" Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the L5. I will get one, yet. I will still always play a 175, though.
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07-19-2014 05:47 PM
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I used to really love the 175 sound, back when I was very into Pat Metheny's music. I listened to tons of Jim Hall and Metheny and was all about that tone. Over the last few years I've moved more in taste towards Wes Montgomery and George Benson, and I have to say that I generally don't like the 175 tone that much anymore. It sounds very flat to me, and lacks the acoustic character of the carved tops.
I haven't heard many of the new laminates, so I'm not sure if what you're talking about is something different, but I'm definitely on the L5 side of the L5 v. 175 battle these days.
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I love 'em both
solid carved and laminated
a good guitar is a good guitar
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The only Norlin-era guitar I still own is a 1980 Kalamazoo Award and agree with you--it's really an outstanding acoustic guitar. I like it amplified too, but it's more acoustic-y than I want for the type of gigs I do.
Originally Posted by Greentone
Disagree about all the rest though--the guitars I've owned that sound the best to me amplified have all been carved-tops. Of the laminates I've owned, the ones I thought sounded the best were by Roger Borys, especially this one that he custom made for me:
Fifteen years ago I greatly downsized my guitar collection and when the smoke cleared all the laminated archtops were gone.
Danny W.
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I have only heard one Borys guitar--Emily Remler's B120. It sounded fantastic, to me. (So did her ES330) Both were laminated guitars.
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i'm with ecj here - used to be totally into e.g. herb ellis' sound, now it sounds muddy and dull and flat to me and i much prefer the definition, punch and tonal variety of e.g. early grant green (or wes of course). As far as playing goes I prefer carved tops (and even floating pickups) over the 175 type guitars I always used to use. I hate using the guitar tone control to take the harshness out of the sound - as i always had to on 175s or other laminates - because it takes the definition with it and makes the guitar more prone to feedback (perhaps because you have to turn it up too much to make it project effectively). I'm also now very keen to base my whole sense of the guitar on its acoustic sound and responsiveness - so i think of 'the' sound as the sound i get out of it acoustically, and i try to make it so that the business of amplification doesn't mess up that sound too much. when i played 175s i always thought of 'the' sound of the guitar as an amplified sound that i could not effectively reproduce when unplugged.
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I love the tone of a certain laminated maple top 25.5 scale guitar and would take that tone over a lot of more expensive carved top from the same builder...
I wish my cheap laminated spruce top Archtop would not be so thick and dipped in plastic...
One day !
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my first electric was a used 70's 175 that I had for only a couple yrs. until I found a used 70's blonde L-5CES and it was like night and day to me, and I'm not talking about Cole Porter.
no disrespect to 175 owners/players, but it was just a more solid feeling, playing and sounding guitar. that particular L-5 is long gone and Jimmy Bruno bought the 175 from me all those yrs ago, wonder if he still has it.
this was the early 80's and along the way I traded for a '47 blonde ES-350, but I don't think I bought another laminate until a few yrs ago when I found an Aria PE-180 [laminate Gibson Super 5 copy] which I purchased because there were some gigs where I didn't want to use my L-5 as people were dancing close to the band and bumping into me on occasion. it's actually a really good sounding guitar plugged and punchy sounding acoustically--which makes for a pretty good couch guitar too, go figure....
main gigging guitar has been a 60's L-5CES for over 25 yrs now but I still use the Aria on our regular Fri night gig.Last edited by wintermoon; 07-19-2014 at 11:22 PM.
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My earliest guitar lust was back in college during the 80s when I discovered Pat Metheny. After I graduated and started earning money, I went to Mandolin Brothers to shop. I couldn't afford a blonde 175. I could, however, afford a P90 model from the 50s or, ironically, an L-4CES. But those weren't quite right according to my Metheny fantasy.
So I bought a 1992 ES-775. That wasn't perfect either, but it was unique and fancy. It was a great guitar, smooth as silk. Wish I still had it.
Years later, a deal came up on a 1957 ES-175DN with PAFs that was as close to a Metheny tribute as I'd ever find. I scooped it up. What a great guitar! I miss that one too, because I sold it to a forum member in order to raise funds for a costly acoustic archtop guitar.
But all those years, the sound in my head was actually crisper, with a "plummy" attack, liquid warm but with woody definition. A longer scale length, plus a carved spruce top, was the answer. It was an L-5CES sound.
I waited til this year to finally get one - twenty years after that Mando Bros shopping trip, twenty years after my GAS began. For some reason, I just thought the sound of an L-5CES would just not be that different from a 175 family instrument. I had also acquired an L-5C and a non-cutaway with a DeArmond and I love them, but they are not a CES either. The CES is an electric jazz guitar sound all its own, even though it has no useful acoustic volume.
Today there are fantastic guitars in both carved and laminate form, and good reasons to own either one - or both.
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If I had a guitar built for me tomorrow, it'd be a laminate.
People have short memories...Herb Ellis' early 175 tone was bright and woody, and Pat Metheny crafted some of the brightest, clearest jazz tones of all time on his 175. Grant Green's early bright tones were on a laminate thin bodied 330.
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Metheny's famously bright tone was not from the wood, though. It was bright from his signal chain (delay, modulation) and thinner than jazz-normal picks. Today his tone is mostly mud, like Martino's. I mean a 335 is bright, so it's not like there's a carved/bright, laminated/dark thing going on. Scale length also plays a role. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Grant Green also played an L-7 and a D'Aquisto. The P90s on his 330 were largely responsible for the brightness, and of course his touch. In fact he favored single coils on all his guitars, including a McCarty on the L-7 and a DeArmond FHC on the D'Aquisto.
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I love 175s. I have a P-90 one and a humbucker one. I don't buy the dull and flat, as a lot of it depends on your set up and how you are amplifying it. I like the short scale, although I wish the string width was wider for the right hand.
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I chose my Sadowsky "Jim Hall model" because of: Originally Posted by Greentone
1) comfort & ease of play.
2) great balance and tone at most volume levels without feedback problems.
3) I get the sounds I want for my style of playing.
I will always love my memories of my "Johnny Smith Gibson" forever.
wiz
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A laminated was also good enough for Tal and Barney
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My ear, and my playing, are very much in line with this. Although my only examples of laminate vs solid wood arch tops are a 175 and a L5. Intellectually, I understand the virtue of laminate guitars. Emotionally, solid wood guitars wrap me up in the sound I crave. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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..... and one could add Wes. An earlier poster mentioned Wes, but a couple of his early records were made with laminated guitars (an ES125 and an ES175 - both apparently borrowed). Among those records are the famed "Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery" (on wich he used a 175). Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Last edited by oldane; 07-20-2014 at 05:04 AM.
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hey, greg koch, are 175s dark?
every maple laminate guitar i've ever encountered has been pretty bright, regardless of maker, pup, pick, amp or setup. unless you asked it not to be. on the other hand, my byrdland isn't very dark, either. unless you ask it to be. depends who's driving, fellas.
personally, i have a little of both and like them both very much. though a lam top "electric" sound is probably most me.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
yes i appreciate the historical detail. But - idle moments ain't a laminate 330 - and i always disliked grant green's sound with a thin body guitar. and i'm thinking herb ellis during his classic period with oscar, not the early solo albums, which indeed did sound slightly brighter and clearer. I'm not a pat methany fan at all.
so the point stands - burrell is an interesting case. does anyone know what he's playing on The Sermon with Jimmy Smith? I've listened to a lot of his stuff without knowing whether he's playing a 175, a super 400 or a D'A. I can't help thinking that his defining sound is a carved top sound - and it is hard to beat (excluding wes anyway).
i had a sadowsky jim hall guitar as what turned out to be the last of my laminates. amazingly efficient and thick and warm sounding instrument - but after a while it felt dead and dull, and that was before I knew what a carved top guitar (especially with a floater) could feel like. i could tell that the success of the amplified tone depended on the failure of its acoustic responsiveness. amazingly despite how fabulously responsive a 17'' carved top/floating pickup guitar feels in your lap it often works beautifully amplified (at least for the quiet gigs i tend to do).
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Originally Posted by oldane
that is fascinating - i did not know that.
oddly 175s are some of the brightest guitars i've ever played - that is why they are almost always cut off at the tonal knees by the tone knob being turned right down.
of course wes sounds beyond perfect on 'incredible..'
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Sounds pretty bright to me.
Grant's tone on "Idle" isn't that different from his 330. I think there's some listening with eyes going on there.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 07-20-2014 at 08:20 AM.
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I played Herb's guitar. It was bright, stringy, and very woody. A superb 175 that Herb gave up his L5ces for.
Last edited by Greentone; 07-20-2014 at 01:47 PM.
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Pretty confusing thread, treating 175 as one guitar. To me, the early ones with the thin laminate and P90 pickups is a distinct model. The only constants over the years significantly affecting tone are the body size, scale, and unusual neck pickup location.
I am currently on an extended guitar honeymoon with an early postwar ES-150 -- thin laminate, 17 inch, P90, 25.5 scale -- and my much more expensive carved tops are going unplayed (and perhaps not coincidentally, listening to a lot of 50s ES-350 P90 Tal Farlow). The ES-150 definitely nails that 1950s tone (and a 1957-2014 ES-175 would not).
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Good point. P-90s are a whole different animal. He's definitely aping the Christian tone here, including the low action and string buzz, slight breakup, etc. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by vinlander
Broadway/Emperor?
I love my Broadway, but I don't consider it an acoustic guitar. For playing on the couch, maybe.... it sounds nicer than my Gretsch or my hollowbodies... but it's meant to be plugged in.
I think, if I was looking for an ACOUSTIC archtop, based on the ones I have played, I'd get a Kingpin. I really dug it's acoustic tone- even the II with the 2 P90s... I was surprised how loud and nice it sounded acoustically, even with 2 pickups mounted. The all-acoustic Kingpin must be even better. And the Jazz? Never played one.
And I don't even know if the Kingpin is solid cherry or laminate, I just know that it sounded darn good.Last edited by ruger9; 07-20-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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I have an L5CES and a Benedetto Bravo, and love them both. The Bravo is a recent acquisition for me. I was interested in an ES175 '59 Reissue, but was waiting for a used one to surface when the Bravo became available. I was able to A/B it with a new 175 '59 RI, and the Bravo won hands down for me. It is very lively acoustically, as you mentioned, and sounds amazing through my Twin or my Deluxe Reverb RI.
So, I'm in both camps - carved and laminate. Depends on the gig & what I'm going for at the time.
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