The virtue of laminated archtop guitars

**Patrick2** · 07-21-2014, 11:09 AM

So . . now we've got people upset because some are successful enough to indulge themselves in an abundance of expensive arch top guitars . . . while not showing "the tiniest bit of awkwardness" . . or offering a self-depricating joke" . . about being in the successful position that they worked hard to get themselves into? Really?

Maybe Danny W. should sell off his entire collection . . along with his home and all of his other *earned* indulgences . . . and donate the money to fund some movement to further subsidize those who didn't care to put forth the efforts Danny did to be able to buy what he wants?

"meant to be kind of light hearted" . .

I really doubt that. Especially when followed up with a post that says . . .

"the very obvious point is that some simply haven't got it!!!! especially if they're really really into playing jazz guitar!"

**Patrick2** · 07-21-2014, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Danny's collection is great and smart money. Some guys park it on the street. Some buy a vacation home. Some just keep bumping their 401k.

The days of pumping money into a guitar collection as a prudent investment for realizing big profits have long since past. The exception would be the uber expensive instruments . . not the recent Gibson arch tops of . . let's say the past 20 years or so. The best part about owning a collection like Danny's is . . he gets to enjoy the fun of hunting for the pre-owned, ordering and spec'ing the new builds, playing and possessing the guitars he's passionate about . . and not loose any money in doing so. They're certainly a blue chip investment in that aspect.

When he divests himself of his collection . . I would imaging there a few he will make a modest profit on . . and there are a few he will lose a modest amout on. Pretty much a wash. But, the intangibles mentioned above are priceless! Also, nothing at all to need to apologize for.

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2014, 11:22 AM

patrick2 - the god of the forum with 4200 posts - what a considerable fellow he must be

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2014, 11:24 AM

Re:danny's guitars

Well, first of all, I see three guitars that would probably sound a good deal different than each other. And then maybe two backups...the guy plays out, its not a bad idea to have a backup.

Secondly, perspective matters...he's got what, one Mercedes worth of guitars?

Last, I don't think Groniyad was upset at all in his post. You read waaaay too much into tlhis post, because lets face it, you're also a guy with a damn nice collection.

**Drifter** · 07-21-2014, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

the very obvious point is that some simply haven't got it!!!! especially if they're really really into playing jazz guitar!

So what? The personal background of any forum member is not an issue here. Thank god it isn't or any discussion would go silly within a few posts.

I am glad I can drool over Dannys pictures and read about his experiences with guitars, even if it seems wise to keep in mind that he may have become pickier over time than I will ever be.

**rpguitar** · 07-21-2014, 11:31 AM

First of all, the DLR quote was from the 80s. I reckon he was doing pretty okay at that point.

Regarding the unbelievable L-5 collection, as it were, I love it. I've seen the photos on all the forums. The guitars are played out in a real band in front of real people. There's no posing, just a healthy amount of personal indulgence along with real musical application of the instruments. It's all good.

The only point I was making is that when such a person tells you that such and such an L-5 is not as good as the others, number one, he probably knows what he's talking about; but number two, readers need to put things into perspective. If I had 50 L-5s I could pick out the top few and weed out the worst few. But it's all relative. Barring true dogs/lemons, the "worst" are probably still really bloody nice guitars. Hence the reason why I injected the DLR quote. Most of us here would happily accept the chicks that he kicked out of bed.

**jorgemg1984** · 07-21-2014, 11:32 AM

It's a good a rule (in the forum or in life) that as long as someone earns his money legally and pays the necessary taxes is entitled to spend it on whatever he / she wants... be it guitars, cars or whatever. No?

Back to laminates

**Patrick2** · 07-21-2014, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

patrick2 - the god of the forum with 4200 posts - what a considerable fellow he must be

Well . . while I do tend to agree with you on this post . . some might feel that "God" is just a tad bit of an exaggeration. But, still . . I do appreciate your astute recognition of my stature. You may feel free to forgo the urge to genuflect while reading my posts. I promise I'll not strike you with a lightning bolt. ;-)

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2014, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Re:danny's guitars

Well, first of all, I see three guitars that would probably sound a good deal different than each other. And then maybe two backups...the guy plays out, its not a bad idea to have a backup.

Secondly, perspective matters...he's got what, one Mercedes worth of guitars?

Last, I don't think Groniyad was upset at all in his post. You read waaaay too much into tlhis post, because lets face it, you're also a guy with a damn nice collection.

thanks for that Mr Beaumont - it was meant to be a light hearted response that registered the fact that i almost fainted when i saw all those instruments lined up like that.

i'm thinking its possible that there are guys involved in threads like this who play a lot but who could not possibly afford a single one of those guitars. i'm not thinking they're 'dead-beats' - in the american terminology - i'm thinking they play a lot of jazz gigs, totally love jazz and archtops, but can afford nothing but a very functional instrument. that used to be me - all over - no longer, thankfully.

i responded to the point that its a 'smart way' to spend your dosh and that different people spend their dosh in different ways (made by someone else - greentone) - by making the genuinely obvious point that its easy to imagine perfectly respectable adults who have not got the money to get a single guitar like that. furthermore - its particularly easy to imagine respectable adults not having the money if we also imagine them playing a lot of jazz guitar gigs. (there's a sort of friendly joke in there.)

i did get a bit upset when - for about the third time in the last couple of days - patrick2 weighed in with his pithy assessments of my intentions.

my original point was not really aimed at the guy with the amazing guitars. i suppose i was thinking of a more general point: its funny on fora like this that none of us have any idea who we are talking to, except that we can expect the people we're talking to to love jazz and jazz guitar and jazz guitars. i think that means we all need to be a bit sensitive about issues which turn on how much dosh each of us happens to have.

**Patrick2** · 07-21-2014, 12:07 PM

[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;444477]Re:danny's guitars

Well, first of all, I see three guitars that would probably sound a good deal different than each other. And then maybe two backups...the guy plays out, its not a bad idea to have a backup.

Secondly, perspective matters...he's got what, one Mercedes worth of guitars?

Last, I don't think Groniyad was upset at all in his post. You read waaaay too much into tlhis post, because lets face it, you're also a guy with a damn nice collection.

Jeff . . I read into this post only what the words as written reflect. That is, the resentment of one who might be more successful than the person who made the post. That's what was said (written) . . and it was said because that's what the underlying sentiment truly was. The poster of those words did indeed try to walk it back in his following post . . and I do appreciate that he realized too late that it was out of line. I respect him for doing so. But, it doesn't mean the words don't reflect his true feelings.

You're correct in recognizing that I bristle at every post where animosity is shown towards those who have achieved *earned* the financial where-with-all to buy what ever they want when ever they want to. As a collector who has owned many fine guitars over the past 2 decades, I do take offense when someone suggests that a guy like Danny shoud "show the tiniest bit of awakwardness about having a collection like this". I just don't get where that should be necessary . . nor do I like the connotation of it as it relates to me or any other collector. Where does that put a guy like the now deceased Scott Chinery who owned well over 1000 important and expensive stringed instruments? Where does it put Clapton, who recently divested his collection which proved to be worth in excess of $5 million?

People are responsible for their words. They're responsible to think about how their words might be take as being offensive to some, before they post them.

Just as a wild comparison . . why is there no animus, envy, jealousy, resentment directed towards those on this forum who have worked their asses off, deprived themselves of other things in life, made the sacrifices necessary to become monster jazz guitarists? The reason is that there is a recognition that they earned their level of achievement. Should they too be required to "show the tiniest bit of awkwardness" about have become as good as they are? Of course not. So then, why would it be suggested that a guy with a collection like Danny's should do so? I'm pretty sure he worked just as hard to be able to afford those guitars . . . unless his wife picked the right six numbers in a lottery somewhere along the line.

**Patrick2** · 07-21-2014, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

thanks for that Mr Beaumont - it was meant to be a light hearted response that registered the fact that i almost fainted when i saw all those instruments lined up like that.

i'm thinking its possible that there are guys involved in threads like this who play a lot but who could not possibly afford a single one of those guitars. i'm not thinking they're 'dead-beats' - in the american terminology - i'm thinking they play a lot of jazz gigs, totally love jazz and archtops, but can afford nothing but a very functional instrument. that used to be me - all over - no longer, thankfully.

i responded to the point that its a 'smart way' to spend your dosh and that different people spend their dosh in different ways (made by someone else - greentone) - by making the genuinely obvious point that its easy to imagine perfectly respectable adults who have not got the money to get a single guitar like that. furthermore - its particularly easy to imagine respectable adults not having the money if we also imagine them playing a lot of jazz guitar gigs. (there's a sort of friendly joke in there.)

i did get a bit upset when - for about the third time in the last couple of days - patrick2 weighed in with his pithy assessments of my intentions.

my original point was not really aimed at the guy with the amazing guitars. i suppose i was thinking of a more general point: its funny on fora like this that none of us have any idea who we are talking to, except that we can expect the people we're talking to to love jazz and jazz guitar and jazz guitars. i think that means we all need to be a bit sensitive about issues which turn on how much dosh each of us happens to have.

Pithy assessments? Please re-read this post above. You claim it was a light hearted response, then you go on to reference those who might not be able to afford what Danny has . . . pretty much a re-assertion that Danny might have more than one should.

Look man, only you know for sure what you intended by your words. If you truly meant them as light hearted . . then I'm interpretting them as a light hearted tongue-in-cheek smack down of Danny . . and any other collector of fine arch tops, myself included. If somehow my interpretations are hasty/knee jerk and incorrect . . then, I offer my sincerest apology. But, as I said . . only you know the true feelings behind your words.

Either way . . you may feel free to continue to perceive me to be . . "The God of The Forum". I find it to be . . rather befitting.

Now . . . let's chill.

**GoergeBenson** · 07-21-2014, 01:11 PM

Oh dear, I see patrick is blowing things out of proportion again tut!

Patrick, you tell people to chill but it's you who should chill. Your always looking for the slightest reason to jump down someones throat.

Dare any of us say anything you remotely dislike, for fear of being personally attacked, insulted or belittled.

It seems the only person who took offence at this latest comment is YOU! The guy even said after his post, that he didn't mean it to sound the way it could be 'interpreted' and you still jump all over him.

Your like a religious fanatic who takes every word in a post literally and you then insist everyone perceives it, in the way you think it should be, without giving the OP any leeway on language, cultural inclinations, or ability to communicate effectively or socially.

The irony and or glaring hypocrisy, is that all things are open to interpretation, yet by your own claims, only your interoperation is correct.

Stop bullying people!!

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2014, 01:14 PM

Sheeeet. I'd be awkward about showing a collection like that because y'all know my name and what city I live in

**Jabberwocky** · 07-21-2014, 01:16 PM

Groyniad-->Grauniad-->Guardian...? OK. I get your sensibilities. Danny's just a sweet guy who loves Gibsons, the L5 variants in particular, and has been at it since he had a shock of black hair and no wrinkles. He is no poseur. I can imagine somebody new to his collection may be taken aback at first. If you ask me it is a good retirement fund. I only wish I were as astute. If you have followed Danny's posts he enjoys sharing his love of Gibson archies. I get no sense he is trying to rub it in my face. Danny does not need me to stand up for him but I thought that I would give you my interpretation.

I get your sensibilities, Groyniad. There are some who are blessed to have the instruments they do while others make do with one. Imagine the violinists who leave Stradivarius/Amati/Guarneri on board busses and compare them with those who just make do. That is just the way it is.

At least, they're being played. And not put behind glass cases.

**2bornot2bop** · 07-21-2014, 01:18 PM

None of us are mind readers. We can't exactly know, that our interpretation of another's written comment is what they truly meant. In many respects, this language thing is really over rated.

for example, during a conversation with your wife or girlfriend, how often has what you said been misinterpreted? and on some occasions, who hasn't developed a secondary relationship with their sofa, however brief?

A communicates this, whilst B hears that.

But I love the part where we want them to understand Us.

**Bluedawg** · 07-21-2014, 01:21 PM

**GoergeBenson** · 07-21-2014, 01:24 PM

I spent £30,000 studying Jazz Harmony and Theory at uni. With that money I could have bought nearly all that collection.

Doesn't make any difference though. As along as we both enjoy guitars and enjoy having them around, thats cool.

If however you expect to able to buy all those guitars as a working Jazz musician, well thats a lot of good behaviour you'll need to tempt Santa :-)

We don't play jazz for the money. After £30,000 spent on the subject (and more including books dvd's etc), I'm officially qualified to ask

"would you like fries with that"

Enjoy the guitars and the music and the people that enjoy them with you, cause none of us are doing this to get rich -)

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2014, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

None of us are mind readers. We can't exactly know, that our interpretation of another's written comment is what they truly meant. In many respects, this language thing is really over rated.

for example, during a conversation with your wife or girlfriend, how often has what you said been misinterpreted? and on some occasions, who hasn't developed a secondary relationship with their sofa, however brief?

A communicates this, whilst B hears that.

But I love the part where we want them to understand Us.

I would never want to understand women. Women understand women, and they all hate each other.

**GoergeBenson** · 07-21-2014, 01:36 PM

In regards to the OP

The majority of Archtop sI've had have been Laminate. This is mainly due to funds and availability of choice.

So having had over 25 laminates of all scales, sizes, materials etc I can say my experience is this.

Laminates really have their place if your a working jazz musician, especially in live situations. The trouble is, knowing what laminates work. Many might as well not be laminate because they are just as impractical as solid tops in regards to feedback. In this situation I would opt for the Sold Top.
If you get a great sounding 16" laminate, that sounds like a hollow body, has great feedback resistance and has the sound you want from the greats you like, then thats the perfect type of laminate to me.

For any other reasons you might as well go solid.

The problem with solids, is choosing the one that works for you. Its not just as simple as buying a solid top as they are traditionally more tonally unstable then laminates IME.
Get a great open warm 16" or 17" for quiet gigs and home enjoyment and thats the perfect one for you.

So really different guitars for different situations IMO. Of course the other factor is, you prefer the slightly duller sound of a laminate because your hero plays on and thats the sound you consider as 'the sound'. In which case your a lucky guy, you have many great and affordable laminates to chose from.
If however you want that more acoustic tone, then settling for a laminate will be pretty hard. Unless you have to use one out of practicality reasons (feedback).

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2014, 02:11 PM

i did explicitly say that i wasn't arguing for the immorality of great personal wealth...

jabberwocky - which is a cool pseudonym - 'groyniad' is a misprint of a misprint (of the name of a paper famous for misprints) - that is the point. i'm probably a bit of a misprint of a misprint - its not so much the political persuasion as the verbal blunder i was getting at and identifying with.

can someone whose played lots and lots of the very best gibson guitars say something interesting about their relative features? or post a couple of clips of e.g. their best laminate vs. their best carved top, or...

one of the technical things i'm totally tripping on at the moment is how hard to pick the strings. i've recently converted to a george benson picking technique - which is very exciting indeed 'cause of how good the sound is and how it improves facility - but it really makes me gravitate towards unamplified playing, and with it i think, to solid wood instruments (with floaters to boot). i feel like i'm hitting the string so strongly and so 'purely' now that i'm pulling a lot of sound out of the carved top instrument that just would not come out of the laminate - a sort of acoustic 'headroom' issue - is that an appropriate term? i always assumed that in order to improve facility i needed to turn the amp up and play lighter (probably on a laminate feedback resistant instrument) - i am now discovering that if i change my picking technique totally i can play much harder, get a much bigger sound out of the instrument (now ideally a carved top), AND really improve facility.

its a good trip

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2014, 02:19 PM

[QUOTE=GoergeBenson;444516]In regards to the OP

Laminates really have their place if your a working jazz musician, especially in live situations. The trouble is, knowing what laminates work. Many might as well not be laminate because they are just as impractical as solid tops in regards to feedback.

dig the whole post gb - and this bit in particular is v. interesting.

most of the laminates i've played - certainly all the newish gibsons (175s mostly) - have been very bad indeed for feedback. worse than the few high end solids i've played (even worse than ones with floaters!!). i have wondered whether this is because one is pushed towards turning them up too much to compensate for turning the tone down so far (to avoid a twangy harsh sound). the only laminate i've had (aside from a post-war es 150) that worked really well was a sadowsky. i'm hoping to avoid getting another for gigs - hoping to cover the situations i play in with the solid floater instrument i really dig.

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2014, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I would never want to understand women. Women understand women, and they all hate each other.

dear mr beaumont - don't let me embarrass you with too much praise but - this is a remark worthy of oscar wilde!

yes indeed it is.

**Jabberwocky** · 07-21-2014, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I would never want to understand women. Women understand women, and they all hate each other.

Originally Posted by Groyniad

dear mr beaumont - don't let me embarrass you with too much praise but - this is a remark worthy of oscar wilde!

yes indeed it is.

How did I overlook mr. beaumont's gem? Yes, indeedy. A quote worthy of Oscar Wilde who often misappropriates quotes...I guess great writers do steal.

“Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
"Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."

**GoergeBenson** · 07-21-2014, 02:33 PM

[QUOTE=Groyniad;444542]

Originally Posted by GoergeBenson

most of the laminates i've played - certainly all the newish gibsons (175s mostly) - have been very bad indeed for feedback. worse than the few high end solids i've played (even worse than ones with floaters!!). i have wondered whether this is because one is pushed towards turning them up too much to compensate for turning the tone down so far (to avoid a twangy harsh sound). the only laminate i've had (aside from a post-war es 150) that worked really well was a sadowsky. i'm hoping to avoid getting another for gigs - hoping to cover the situations i play in with the solid floater instrument i really dig.

Actually thats one of the reasons why Models like the ES-175 have IMO become unpopular. They don't have a great acoustic tone and for all that loss, they're not very feedback resistant either.
They are also very expensive for what they are, considering that other manufacturers make better or exactly identical models for about $999.00 (but thats a different thread).

I found through my journey, that the Japanese came up with a great solution. They had several ES-175 types from the 70's that where essentially exact copies.
In the late 70's early 80's they reduced the size of the body. They took about half-34's of an inch off the depth, narrowed the shoulders and often with a patch placed under the bridge.

These models are:

Ibanez FG100, JP120, GB20 Greco FA-95 (to name a few).

This meant that the models had a good acoustic volume and he'd great feedback resistance. The tops could be made quote thin too so at lower volumes you could achieve a nice woody tone.
Thats why now, Ibanez are so popular with gigging jazz musicians. They have been very diligently trying to make the Achtop more practical but the trade off of course, is the acoustic tone, which they have obviously been cautious not to totally sacrifice.

**GoergeBenson** · 07-21-2014, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

How did I overlook mr. beaumont's gem? Yes, indeedy. A quote worthy of Oscar Wilde who often misappropriates quotes...I guess great writers do steal.

“Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
"Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."

Female Receptionist:

"How do you write women so well"?

Male romantic novelist:

"I think of a man, then take away reasoning and accountability"

(GB would like to add that he in no way condones sexism unless its role play night ;-)