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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
great vid - wow. unusually bright tone seems to me.
first time i heard gg i didn't like him at all because his tone sounded so thin - didn't find out for years that he was playing a thin body arch top. and i was bewildered that he would chose to use an instrument that made him sound that way. now i really like him, but all the records i listen to he's playing a full size instrument.
in general, you can't hear a damn thing with your eyes. if you try holding your hands over your ears really tightly and looking really hard at the band, you can't hear very well at all. then, when you take your hands away from your ears, suddenly, you can hear great again.
he sounds great here really - but still - there's a muddiness that is a) more typical of the 175 sound b) not that great
this herb vid. was my first jazz instruction - and i used to totally adore the sound - so much so, i think, that it motivated me to learn to play jazz (when is that going to happen i wonder?). now, it seems too muddy and dull to me.
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07-20-2014 11:48 AM
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not certain as to when he ditched the 330, but I think it was in the mid 60's. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I believe he then went to a prewar 16" L-7 that had an added McCarty and then a non-cut Epi Emperor also w/added McCarty.
his last guitar was the D'Aquisto.
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Originally Posted by nopedals
i had one of these for over a year and absolutely loved it. it really does nail that sound - and, i remember, it was amazingly good at resisting feedback. but i can't help thinking it would sound dull and dead if i tried it now. amplified the p-90 would help, sure. but a big part of the appeal of the carved top floater is how it feels. so you could even agree that it didn't sound so great plugged in, but still prefer a carved top instrument. seems to me now that it is the responsiveness of the carved top that is irresistible. but its the tone too - the way it folds a full round woody sound into a tone that prominently includes a silver shimmer from the strings.
the really interesting issue beneath the carved vs. laminate thing is the question of whether we play an essentially electric or acoustic instrument. does the 'real' sound of our instrument appear when we plug in (so when we play unplugged we're putting up with a sound that stands in more or less poorly for the real sound); or does the real sound appear when we play acoustically (so when we play plugged in we're trying to capture as much of the way it sounds acoustically as poss. and putting up with the distance we inevitably fall short of that because of the exigencies of the band stand)? no other mainstream jazz instrument has this identity issue. the sax. for example is essentially acoustic and so is the piano (but not an organ). in fact, its only really the electric rock guitar and the synthesizer that are uncontroversially essentially electric instruments. (there are some organs that won't make any sound until you plug them in - and the sound of a strat. unplugged is not a contender for what the guitar is really meant to sound like.
i think this issue is a genuine one and that it is at the heart of the experience of playing (moderately mainstream) jazz guitar.
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In the mid '90s I came into some money and was able to buy my "dream" archtop. I went to the closest Gibson Historic dealer at the time and asked them to tell me what the highest price was -- not what was priced highest -- just what the price was. After finding out I could afford that, I asked him to just hand me archtops to play without telling me anything about price or what it was. I didn't look at them or identify the model as I played them. I ended up liking the Tal Farlow best and walked out with it. Others that I tried were an L-5CES, an L-5 Wes, and a Byrdland. I was surprised that I found the laminate was the best for me in getting the sound I wanted, without my ears being contaminated with "knowledge". Since then, I sold the Tal to fund a Bill Moll custom build, and was sorry for doing so. The Moll was great but I missed the Tal Farlow. I've compensated by getting an Eastman 371 but it is not quite the same.
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er - i have to say listening again to the herb instructional video - i still totally love his sound. and it would be wrong to call it dull in any way.
didn't wes swap a johnny smith floater for a mounted humbucker in his L5, thus turning an essentially acoustic instrument into an essentially electrified one? - in another current thread that was mentioned.
certainly from a historical point of view it was by becoming electrified that the guitar transformed its role in jazz, and electrification crucially involved laminated instruments (es 150 etc.) - that suggests that, as a soloist's instrument anyway, it is essentially electric and only incidentally acoustic.
no one sounds more acoustic than him hall (especially es 175 jim hall) - so there's an example of the acoustic properties of the instrument entering into its real sound. and to confuse things more its a laminated instrument that jim hall does that with (of course).
you can hear the silver sparkle of the acoustic sound in wes' tone. isn't that a crucial part of what makes his sound so compelling?
it may well be that being able to preserve at least an important component of the acoustic sound of the instrument in its amplified sound is essential if you want to get a great sound.
and its obvious from the history - e.g. jim hall and wes - that you can preserve an acoustic aspect of the sound with both the laminated and the solid carved top instruments.
in that case the only reason to prefer carved tops - as i now unquestionably do - is because of how they feel to play. they are quicker and more responsive aren't they?
and there's always the possibility that you happen to prefer the wes-type way of preserving an acoustic aspect to the sound over a jim-type way of doing that.
talking to mark campellone, he says its the silver shimmer of the great old gibson arched tops (L7 etc.) that he loves so much. When i first heard him say this i didn't get it at all. But i find myself agreeing with him more and more - both as a player and a listener.
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I've got several Jim Hall recordings and can say that none of them sound "acoustic" to me. The only times when I can hear something resembling an acoustic archtop is when he completely rolls off his volume in order to accompany bass solos. Originally Posted by Groyniad
Which examples of his electric playing have the most acoustic characteristics to you?
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Very acoustic sound of a Jim Hall.
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Wow, independent of the extent to which Lage Lund's guitar sounds electric or acoustic/electric, I must say that it is the first time I have had the pleasure of hearing him and the trio. They sure remind me of the 50s Jimmy Giuffre 3 when it featured Jim Hall, Jimmy Giuffre, and Ralph Pena. Good stuff.
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Originally Posted by Klatu
well the sides with paul desmond - and even more obviously all the wonderful (very quiet) stuff with jimmy giuffre
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I do too - here is 'careful' by Jim Hall
is it just me or is this video out of this world? the clothes, the plants, the focus
jim hall's sound is perfect - so natural and calm
what a tune!
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Great video of Jimmy Giuffre's Trio with Jim Hall and Buddy Clark. Nice Jim Hall composition. I really like all of Jim Hall's work on his old P90 ES175 and his Gibson GA50 amp (it was for sale recently on the Internet). Thanks for posting the link. I think everyone should listen to the "chamber jazz" of the old Giuffre trios--especially the Giuffre, Hall, Brookmeyer work.
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I had had almost exactly the same Borys B120. It was a great guitar, beautifully made and sounded great. Mine had a 25.5" scale with a nut width that was a little over 1 3/4". I found the those dimensions a bit much, so I ended up selling the guitar. I think a 16" guitar should have a slightly shorter scale and a nut width of 1 /11/16 or 1 3/4 at the most. I would have kept it forever if it had a neck like that. Here's a pic of mine. Originally Posted by Danny W.
The only Norlin-era guitar I still own is a 1980 Kalamazoo Award and agree with you--it's really an outstanding acoustic guitar. I like it amplified too, but it's more acoustic-y than I want for the type of gigs I do.
Disagree about all the rest though--the guitars I've owned that sound the best to me amplified have all been carved-tops. Of the laminates I've owned, the ones I thought sounded the best were by Roger Borys, especially this one that he custom made for me:
Fifteen years ago I greatly downsized my guitar collection and when the smoke cleared all the laminated archtops were gone.
Danny W.
Keith
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Those Borys guitars look great--and, again, Emily Remler's B120 was killer. Here is a link of Kenny Burrell on a favorite album of mine, "Tin Tin Deo," where he plays a Super 400C with a DeArmond Rhythm Chief--a formidable combination that tips things in favor of the carved body guys:
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Roger builds great guitars. At the time he made mine I was playing both 25.5" and 24.75" scales, but since then I've decided I prefer the longer scale, so I would have been glad to swap guitars with you! For the last ten years I've been doing almost all my gigs with solid-wood, carved-top 15.5" x 2 & 5/8" guitars with 25.5" scales: Originally Posted by floatingpickup
I had had almost exactly the same Borys B120. It was a great guitar, beautifully made and sounded great. Mine had a 25.5" scale with a nut width that was a little over 1 3/4". I found the those dimensions a bit much, so I ended up selling the guitar. I think a 16" guitar should have a slightly shorter scale and a nut width of 1 /11/16 or 1 3/4 at the most. I would have kept it forever if it had a neck like that. Here's a pic of mine.
Keith
Which just helps prove a point about threads such as these--laminate or solid wood, just as scale length, is simply a matter of personal choice. It's impossible to prove that one is better than the other because there's no objective measure, and even if there were, people would continue to make the "wrong" choices based on whatever criteria they feel is important to them.
Danny W.
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If that's the guitar he's playing . . I'm not sure I've ever seen a Super 400 with block inlays on the 14th, 16th and 18th frets.?.? Tone is amazing . . . what ever the guitar is. Originally Posted by Greentone
I have a custom made KA hand wound Rhythm Chief 1100 clone on my most recent custon built Super Eagle. The tone is very similar . . . my playing, not so much so. ;-)
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The thing that I've always found intreging about Jazz guitar is that the instruments sound so similar, that it falls on the player to make the difference. This in mind, and the differences being so subtle, I lean towards the instrument that inspires me; if it makes you want to play more, buy it, everything else is academic.
Danny was WAY TOO many guitars, please share! Cheers.
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show the tiniest bit of awkwardness about having a collection like this - i don't know, a self-deprecating joke or something. how many totally committed guitarists are there out there who could work for decades to afford one of those - and fail? i worry about their feelings - mine too - just a little bit. i'm not arguing for the immorality of great personal wealth here by the way - so don't respond as if i am. Originally Posted by Danny W.
Roger builds great guitars. At the time he made mine I was playing both 25.5" and 24.75" scales, but since then I've decided I prefer the longer scale, so I would have been glad to swap guitars with you! For the last ten years I've been doing almost all my gigs with solid-wood, carved-top 15.5" x 2 & 5/8" guitars with 25.5" scales:
Which just helps prove a point about threads such as these--laminate or solid wood, just as scale length, is simply a matter of personal choice. It's impossible to prove that one is better than the other because there's no objective measure, and even if there were, people would continue to make the "wrong" choices based on whatever criteria they feel is important to them.
Danny W.
though - i would love to know if all the L 5s sound the same, and all the legrandes - because i'm interested in how much these models vary instrument by instrument, and you are in a uniquely good position to make a judgement about that.
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meant to be kind of light-hearted - didn't sound as light hearted as i meant it to - honest! i don't like using those funny face things. there is such a thing as a friendly dig isn't there? anyway - i wasn't trying to be aggressive.
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Danny's collection is great and smart money. Some guys park it on the street. Some buy a vacation home. Some just keep bumping their 401k.
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When one has (had) a collection like that, with so many extremely similar instruments, basically the proverbial "one in each color" for just about every type of L-5 out there... It would be nice to hear some perspective when rating one type, or one era, against each other.
I mean, Danny might not dig Norlin era Gibsons. But comparing an arbitrary one against 50 other L-5s is an extremely unique perspective and privilege to have. Most players can compare against maybe 5 at best, or in many cases, against none. So it wouldn't hurt to at least admit that perspective when speaking about the guitars.
It reminds me of a quote from David Lee Roth, former Van Halen singer, about the kind of girls he would hook up with as a huge rock star. He told the interviewer "Picture the five hottest girls you know... Well, I wouldn't &$%# any of 'em."
We can't all be so picky, you know?
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Best quote I've ever read on any forum. I wonder what kind of girls he's sleeping with now. Originally Posted by rpguitar
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I find the opposite. There's a much bigger difference between any archtops I've playen than strats / teles / leus pauls. WIth these is mostly the pickup and the feel of the guitar that make the difference but well built archtops sound considerably different from each other in my experience. Of course the louder the band the less these differences are heard. Originally Posted by Phiberopttic
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Originally Posted by Greentone
the very obvious point is that some simply haven't got it!!!! especially if they're really really into playing jazz guitar!
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Exactly! I would also imagine that the five hottest looking girls DLR knew wouldn't &$%# him either. Originally Posted by Klatu
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The five hottest girls DLR knew must be pretty damned old bags by now. &$%# must be rather moot and pointless.
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