The Sound of 1950's Jazz Guitar

**Greentone** · 07-01-2014, 08:22 PM

Working jazz musician = upright bass player

working guitarist = Strat guy in wedding band

**edh** · 07-01-2014, 10:20 PM

Working guitarist = upright bass player.

**Eddie Lang** · 07-02-2014, 01:48 AM

Many ways to achieve that kind of sound. I say "kind" because a lot depends on each of us as a player. Someone else playing with my set up will most likely sound different than me, but the tone might be in the same ballpark.

As others have mentioned, single coils (P-90, P-13, CC, McCarty, DeArmond) will give you that kind of vibe.

As 2bornot2bop mentioned, I recently got a SeQuel Tributary. It's the smaller sibling of the Tribute in the video. I didn't get to play the big one, but it seems sound pretty much like mine. BTW, the Tribute is 32 watts/19 kilos, while the Tributary is 15 watts/13 kilos. It is possibly (and IMHO) the best sounding amp that I have ever had the chance to play and I am really happy to have it. This being said, you could have a tone that would please you for cheaper. Old Gibson amps of the GA series can be found at reasonable prices. Depending on how much volume you need, you could get a GA-50, but if you don't need as loud (and heavy), a GA-8 Gibsonette at around 10 watts/5 kilos might do it nicely for you (these can be found for about $500 give or take on ebay). But while I am fine with playing vintage guitars at live venues, I am not too fond of bringing vintage amps, especially in our canadian climate!

Another thing, don't forget that 1950's jazz guitar sound can mean different things…

Here is something that Michael at Sound Island Music wrote to me in the course of our correspondence while I was trying to decide on buying an amp:

In the meantime, here are some examples of the "vibe" of what influenced me in developing the SeQuel amps...notice the similarities of the guitars:

RAVINE influence examples, here by Jimmy Raney on ES-175 with CC single coil:

TRIBUTE and TRUBUTARY influence example, here by Jim Hall on ES-175 with P-90 single coil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovV-Mum6T1Y

Here are a few guitar/amp combinations that all sound different while sounding "1950's".

L-7 with McCarty pickguard/pickup unit and SeQuel Tributary

L-4C with DeArmond FHC-B and TKM "Jazz Deluxe"

ES-225 with P-90 and GA-8 Gibsonette

**Harri** · 07-02-2014, 04:51 AM

Thanks, Eddie, for a great post. These examples define very well the sound I'm after. How much do you gig with your Tributary? Can you cover a lot with 15w? Is that duo yours (I mean the L7 & Tributary), any recordings? Finally, if you don't mind... how much was the Tributary?

Because I gig quite a lot I probably wouldn't feel very confident bringing a vintage amp along. That's one of the reasons I'm considering a modern replica.

**Little Jay** · 07-02-2014, 05:17 AM

Hi Harri,

I think you are fine with the guitar.

My suggestion to check out would be the Award Session Bluesbaby 22: BluesBaby 22 Guitar Amp. Welcome to award-session.com [AwardSession BluesBaby]

Unfortunately there are only a few - mostly overdriven blues orientated - sound samples to be found on the web. But I am very impressed with mine, especially for it's ability to behave like an old school tube-amp at any volume (but with all the advantages of a lightweight solid state amp). Lot's of clean headroom too as long as you play with a small group and not too loud drummer. A great feature is that it has a 'blackface'-switch to scoop the mids, so you get both BF/SF-Fender and Tweed/Gibson-esque voicings out of it.

Of course it only comes as a chassis and you will have to find a speaker, reverb tray and a cabinet to turn it into a functional amp, so it might not be the most practical choice.... (but it makes a great weekend man-cave job! ;-)

I built a very light pine cab and paired it with a Jensen Neo 12-100 speaker and couldn't be happier!

(btw - I have no affiliation with Award Session other than a satisfied customer!)

**ruger9** · 07-02-2014, 07:02 AM

HEY.... never heard of TKM before.... and the "Jazz Deluxe" isn't on their website.... what are the specs of that beauty? What makes it more "jazz"?

**vinlander** · 07-02-2014, 03:32 PM

Don't wish to derail that thread but I am still on that early 50s Tal Farlow thunk tone chase; maybe I should have been more open minded to pickup suggestions telling me to stay away from humbuckers.
I wanted to stay close to the Gibson spec of a Tal Farlow guitar which is classic 57s and even used the right vol and tone pots and cap specs.
The classic 57 I routed into the Regent really made it for the better, but still not quite the deal I was wishing for...
It is still lacking a bit of definition on the 6th and 5th strings...too woofy smooth for my taste when plugged in, but I don't want to go smaller gauge (13-56 right now) because that guitar sounds wonderful with them acoustically; really thunk !
As I already routed that regent for a humbucker size I was wondering if trying a Lollar Charlie Christian humbucker size would help that (lower mid ?) punch
The top is laminated spruce and not maple so I know it might snap less but there might still be room for improvement.
Anyone as experience with that pickup and would that gives a bit more 50s flavour ?
If I would go that way what would be the spec for vol, tone and cap I should swap to be closer to the 50s spec ?

**oldane** · 07-02-2014, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by vinlander

Don't wish to derail that thread but I am still on that early 50s Tal Farlow thunk tone chase; maybe I should have been more open minded to pickup suggestions telling me to stay away from humbuckers.
I wanted to stay close to the Gibson spec of a Tal Farlow guitar which is classic 57s and even used the right vol and tone pots and cap specs.
The classic 57 I routed into the Regent really made it for the better, but still not quite the deal I was wishing for...
It is still lacking a bit of definition on the 6th and 5th strings...too woofy smooth for my taste when plugged in, but I don't want to go smaller gauge (13-56 right now) because that guitar sounds wonderful with them acoustically; really thunk !
As I already routed that regent for a humbucker size I was wondering if trying a Lollar Charlie Christian humbucker size would help that (lower mid ?) punch
Anyone as experience with that pickup and would that gives a bit more 50s flavour ?
If I would go that way what would be the spec for vol, tone and cap I should swap to be closer to the 50s spec ?

I the early 1950s Tal didn't use a humbucker on his guitar - it wasn't invented yet. First he had the ES150 with a CC PU (and a shortened fretboard) he used with the Red Norvo Trio. Nearer the mid 1950s, he got a two pickup ES 350 and being a perpetual tinkerer, he replaced the neck P90 with a CC. That's the sound we hear on the records he made with Eddie Costa on piano.

My Painter P-350 (a paraphrase over the ES 350) is equipped with a Biltoft HCC with Alnico II magnets. At the moment the guitar is strung with TI Swing 13-53 flatwounds (nickel wound - as opposed to D'A Chromes which are stainless steel wound and more twangy). With that setup and the amp set to a fairly dry sound (not too much bass, not to bright treble), I get that "thud" from the 1950s. Frankly, I don't know the specs for the pots and cap, but they are likely pretty standard. Pete Biltof wrote something general about it here: http://www.vintagevibeguitars.com/do...otsAndCaps.pdf .... and here: http://www.vintagevibeguitars.com/do...tarAndBass.pdf

I have the same experience as you with lack of clarity in the bass with humbuckers. With the HCC, I get excellent clarity, balance and note separation. To my ears, the HCC is sweeter and less honky than a P90, but not so much that a minor tweak of the EQ can't equalize the difference. I haven't tried the Lollar CC, but I figure you can get the same kind of tone with it, because it's basically the same design as the Biltoft HCC (blade single coil with a fairly wide coil). The Lollar is more expensive than the HCC, though.

**wintermoon** · 07-02-2014, 04:10 PM

"First he had the ES150 with a CC PU (and a shortened fretboard) he used with the Red Norvo Trio"

ES-250

**Eddie Lang** · 07-02-2014, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Harri

Thanks, Eddie, for a great post. These examples define very well the sound I'm after. How much do you gig with your Tributary? Can you cover a lot with 15w? Is that duo yours (I mean the L7 & Tributary), any recordings? Finally, if you don't mind... how much was the Tributary?

Because I gig quite a lot I probably wouldn't feel very confident bringing a vintage amp along. That's one of the reasons I'm considering a modern replica.

Hi Harri,

I haven't gigged the Tributary yet, but I suspect it will be enough for my needs. I haven't played out for about a year now for different reasons, none of them related to music, but I'd like to get something going again. When I did play out, it was not in loud and rowdy venues, and it was without a drummer who thinks he has to play louder than Elvin Jones did. Mostly duo and trio settings. For room of up to say, 300 people who are mainly there to listen, I don't expect to play much louder than 1 to 2 o'clock. 3 o'clock is loud and the amp stays clean all the way up if I ever need to go there.

The Tributary may be 15 watts, but it's a very efficient one. 12 inch Jensen AlNiCo speaker, EF806 gold pin preamp tube, two 6L6GC power-tubes. Clean, clean, clean. Also nice and rich across all the guitar frequencies. Also, the bass on strings 5 and 6 is big and fat but never muddy (I haven't tried it with a HB -- but I did listen to a recording of Michael playing it with his guitar equipped with a KA floating HB and his bass notes and big chords did not turn to mud).

Michael himself used that amp on a few gigs. Apparently, Tuck Andress is the last one to have played it before Michael shipped it, but I am not sure if it's true because his abilities did not transfer to me when I started playing…

The price for a new one is right there on his website. (His website allows the conversion to other currencies, including €uros.)

SeQuel Jazz Amplifiers | Jazz guitar tube amps | SOUNDISLANDMUSIC.COM

**Eddie Lang** · 07-02-2014, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

HEY.... never heard of TKM before.... and the "Jazz Deluxe" isn't on their website.... what are the specs of that beauty? What makes it more "jazz"?

Ruger9,

TKM is a local amp builder here in Calgary. Very nice amps. He called this one a "Jazz Deluxe" because of what I am playing, and how we worked together on the specs (I talked and played, he did the actual work) to get the sound that I was after at the time.

The amp is totally hand built, and Terry does everything. I think that his wife helped with making the circuit, but that's it.

It is based on a the clean channel of a blackface Deluxe, but it has way more headroom, and the tone has been adjusted to suit my pickups and playing. Its character is definitely fenderish as opposed to the SeQuel's that is gibsonesque.

**Eddie Lang** · 07-02-2014, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by vinlander

As I already routed that regent for a humbucker size I was wondering if trying a Lollar Charlie Christian humbucker size would help that (lower mid ?) punch

Vinlander,

I would talk to Jason Lollar. He is responsive and when I contacted him a couple years ago about a project that I finally did not pursue, he seemed alright about customizing any type of pup to accommodate my needs (wishes, really!).

**Greentone** · 07-02-2014, 05:04 PM

Nice build work on the TKM. I am an amp builder. I have built bunches of amps. The TKM looks very well put together. Bet it sounds quite nice.

**Eddie Lang** · 07-02-2014, 07:51 PM

Thanks, Greentone.

**Keira Witherkay** · 07-03-2014, 12:08 AM

just a point to bear in mind when using original footage or recordings from the 1950's to describe the tone you seek ...is that in those years the recording process was not as good as today and the mic's and recording to tape did colour the sound and in fact removed certain frequencies or reduced them especially low end and extreme tops ....

so what you hear on old 50's recordings is NOT 100% true to what was being heard in the studio or concert hall .... since the same guitars and amps may sound totally different if recorded today digitally ....

good luck with the quest.... and when you find that combination... you'll know instantly .... so keep trying different combinations from strings ,pickups to guitars and amps..not to mention your own technique till that tone happens for you ....enjoy the process...

**Harri** · 07-03-2014, 03:28 AM

Thanks, Keira. I'm already enjoying the process.

**ruger9** · 07-03-2014, 07:43 AM

Eddie,

Nice speaker choice. Love those hemp cones.

**Eddie Lang** · 07-03-2014, 11:00 PM

Harri,

I mentioned the GA-8 Gibsonette (~10 watts/5 kilos) that can be very affordable when they come up on ebay, but what I didn't tell you is that I played that ES-225 and GA-8 in the photo at a gig in a room with a capacity of around 150 people. It was a duo gig, swing music, no drums, older audience. I played guitar and the other guy played (electric) guitar and (mic'ed) mandolin. The volume knob was never passed 10 o'clock on the Gibsonette (that's 3, 3 and 1/2 and the amp goes to 10) and I don't think that I had the volume on the guitar up to 10 either. Microphones for vocals and mandolin were going through the PA, but the guitars only went through the (un-mic'ed) amps. It was plenty. And everyone who came to talk after mentioned how they liked the tone coming from my set-up.

**Eldergreen** · 07-04-2014, 06:54 AM

This may be a bit offbeam, but it occurs to me that the desired tonal characteristics seem often to vary from lower to higher strings, & all pickups are uniform in shape - maybe a wedge-shaped bobbin ( say P90 width at the low E, broadening to humbucker width on the high e ) might retain the desired more-defined low-end, whilst thickening up the trebles? Any reason why this ( in principle ) shouldn't work? I'm probably missing something obvious..

**ruger9** · 07-04-2014, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Eldergreen

This may be a bit offbeam, but it occurs to me that the desired tonal characteristics seem often to vary from lower to higher strings, & all pickups are uniform in shape - maybe a wedge-shaped bobbin ( say P90 width at the low E, broadening to humbucker width on the high e ) might retain the desired more-defined low-end, whilst thickening up the trebles? Any reason why this ( in principle ) shouldn't work? I'm probably missing something obvious..

Interesting. I haven't seen a trapezoid-shaped pickup... but I have seen slanted pickups, I always assumed they were trying to achieve a similar result...problem is, they always seem to be slanted the WRONG WAY....

The Sound of 1950's Jazz Guitar-slant_zpsb0fef2ce-jpg

The Sound of 1950's Jazz Guitar-slant_zpsb0fef2ce-jpg

**Eldergreen** · 07-04-2014, 09:38 AM

Ah, but that slanted pickup is still uniform in width, so wouldn't achieve what I'm getting at - gotta be some snag I'm missing, or someone would surely have experimented with one by now..or maybe they have?

**ruger9** · 07-04-2014, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Eldergreen

Ah, but that slanted pickup is still uniform in width, so wouldn't achieve what I'm getting at - gotta be some snag I'm missing, or someone would surely have experimented with one by now..or maybe they have?

I have never seen one. I have seen pickup being described as having the assets you're talking about, but they all had uniform bobbins... the builders attempted to use different pole pieces, or split magnets of differing strengths, or other things, to achieve what you're after (actually what alot of people are after)...

But the shape would need to be industry standard... P90 size, HB size, etc.... in order for anyone to buy them and use them [a trapezoid-shaped pickup] on their guitars (w/o modifications)... I guess you could make a top-mount dogear version, trapezoid shaped, but it would be butt ugly, and no one would buy it, lol

FWIW, I know TV Jones has recently released the "Brian Setzer Signature" Filtertron pickups, which are a tweaked filtertron Classic design, and people report he has achieved, or at least gotten closer, to the goal we're discussing.... don't know what he did, but they are still in a standard filtertron case.

**Eldergreen** · 07-04-2014, 10:46 AM

ruger, I was thinking more along the lines of it being housed in a humbucker shell, like they do with h/b sized P90s, there could be a triangular bobbin in there & you'd never know - if I had the expertise I'd have a go at it myself, but alas, I have no such talent - be an interesting experiment tho.

**gnatola** · 07-04-2014, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by GoergeBenson

Both players you mention used Laminate maple tops in the era you liked. So to start with, that should be a good place to go. I don't recall many, if any playing a solid topped 16' guitar.
Then in terms of amp, you could spend a lot on a boutique one, then find a cheap solid state that sounds just as good.

As many have pointed out, there was no real gear obsession back then so in a way your kind of working too hard for the result already.

Plus guitars and amps sound different in every room, so you might find that sweet spot in one era but then totally lose it in another.

If you want that 50's tone, then yes I'm sure some sort of P-90 with your average fender tube amp on a laminate topped maple guitar (pref 17") will get you as close as you'll ever get.

I found my smokey 50's tone with my Guild X-700 through pretty much any amp but then I'm going for s slightly thicker smoother tone.

Heres a sound demo I made of it going DI into my iMac through an Apogee. Regardless of the amp it sounds pretty much the same.

Don't get too hung up looking for something that really is quite simple, the guitar has to be the place you start, not the amp IMO.

GB, beautiful tone and playing. What is that first song? It sounds familiar, but I can't place it.

**ruger9** · 07-04-2014, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Eldergreen

ruger, I was thinking more along the lines of it being housed in a humbucker shell, like they do with h/b sized P90s, there could be a triangular bobbin in there & you'd never know - if I had the expertise I'd have a go at it myself, but alas, I have no such talent - be an interesting experiment tho.

Well, if you'd ever like to have a go at it yourself, contact Pete Biltoft of Vintage Vibe Guitars- he's a custom pickup builder, and he'll build anything you want....

It would be an interesting experiment.