The Sound of 1950's Jazz Guitar

**gnatola** · 07-04-2014, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by GoergeBenson

Both players you mention used Laminate maple tops in the era you liked. So to start with, that should be a good place to go. I don't recall many, if any playing a solid topped 16' guitar.
Then in terms of amp, you could spend a lot on a boutique one, then find a cheap solid state that sounds just as good.

As many have pointed out, there was no real gear obsession back then so in a way your kind of working too hard for the result already.

Plus guitars and amps sound different in every room, so you might find that sweet spot in one era but then totally lose it in another.

If you want that 50's tone, then yes I'm sure some sort of P-90 with your average fender tube amp on a laminate topped maple guitar (pref 17") will get you as close as you'll ever get.

I found my smokey 50's tone with my Guild X-700 through pretty much any amp but then I'm going for s slightly thicker smoother tone.

Heres a sound demo I made of it going DI into my iMac through an Apogee. Regardless of the amp it sounds pretty much the same.

Don't get too hung up looking for something that really is quite simple, the guitar has to be the place you start, not the amp IMO.

GB, beautiful tone and playing. What is that first song? It sounds familiar, but I can't place it.

**oldane** · 07-04-2014, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Eldergreen

ruger, I was thinking more along the lines of it being housed in a humbucker shell, like they do with h/b sized P90s, there could be a triangular bobbin in there & you'd never know - if I had the expertise I'd have a go at it myself, but alas, I have no such talent - be an interesting experiment tho.

If I understand you correctly, that won't be possible. The width of the pickup is determined by the number of windings (more windings, wider PU - everything else equal) . The bobbin is just a passive element which follows the shape of the coil. Since a single coil PU has only one wire which is wound around the entire PU, the PU can't have anything but the same width in both ends. Mayby one could flatten the coil at one end and thus "sqeeze out" the windings, so to speak, but I have never seen that done - maybe because single coil PUs are already fairly well balanced tone wise between top and buttom, better than many humbuckers, so it's not that necessary.

**ruger9** · 07-04-2014, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

If I understand you correctly, that won't be possible. The width of the pickup is determined by the number of windings (more windings, wider PU - everything else equal) . The bobbin is just a passive element which follows the shape of the coil. Since a single coil PU has only one wire which is wound around the entire PU, the PU can't have anything but the same width in both ends. Mayby one could flatten the coil at one end and thus "sqeeze out" the windings, so to speak, but I have never seen that done - maybe because single coil PUs are already fairly well balanced tone wise between top and buttom, better than many humbuckers, so it's not that necessary.

No, I think it could. Think of a triangle. While it will have the same # of winds at both ends, since it is wound on a triangular bobbin, one side would STILL be wider than the other, which would affect the magnetic field, if I'm not mistaken, and therefore, the tone produced.

**oldane** · 07-04-2014, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

No, I think it could. Think of a triangle. While it will have the same # of winds at both ends, since it is wound on a triangular bobbin, one side would STILL be wider than the other, which would affect the magnetic field, if I'm not mistaken, and therefore, the tone produced.

Ah, now I get the idea. But wouldn't that necessitate very special polepieces/magnets to avoid varying distance between the windings and the polepieces/magnets (= varying volume at each end of the PU, I figure)? We would need PTChris to chime in on this.

**docbop** · 07-04-2014, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

No, I think it could. Think of a triangle. While it will have the same # of winds at both ends, since it is wound on a triangular bobbin, one side would STILL be wider than the other, which would affect the magnetic field, if I'm not mistaken, and therefore, the tone produced.

Seems like if this made a significant difference you'd see split pickups more. Right now only split guitar pickups I've seen are the old Fender 12 string and some of the guitars with more than 7 strings.

**Eldergreen** · 07-04-2014, 01:29 PM

But different from split pickups in that a coil wound on a triangular bobbin should give a graduated thickening of tone towards the treble end - & any commensurate volume difference would also be graduated, & could be rectified by raising/lowering either end of the coil, or maybe polepiece adjustment.

**nosoyninja** · 07-04-2014, 02:21 PM

I just saw this:

http://www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_E...ge_Pickup.html

The blurb describes precisely this same difference between the lower and the higher strings.

**gcb** · 07-04-2014, 07:06 PM

There are some Peggy Lee/Dave Barbour videos on YT from the early 50s. I like that Gibson´s tone.

**gcb** · 07-04-2014, 07:20 PM

Another one

**NSJ** · 07-04-2014, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by gnatola

GB, beautiful tone and playing. What is that first song? It sounds familiar, but I can't place it.

That song? It doesn't get more 1950s guitar than that

**gcb** · 07-04-2014, 08:40 PM

Billy Bauer recorded this in 1956. Clear HI-fi tone:

**Stefano** · 12-12-2014, 01:42 AM

Hi there , This thread sort of inspired me to register and , just in case anyone glances back over this old thread about old tones and old amplifiers , i reckon i would like to express an opinion...
Firstly , i believe that these tones can not be attributed to just an amplifier or a pickup or any one thing , i look at the whole picture starting at the Player . Most of those old tones come right from your hands out of your desire . And yes your choice instrument and pick ups should compliment the way you do that . The important thing about pick ups is not so much about what materials they were made from as much as how they integrate with a particular amplifier . The pickups round the 40's and early 50's were pretty much designed to work with amps of the same era .
Most of this thread is about a guy (hi Harri ) who has pretty much decided to have his dream amp re created ,being a Gibson GA50, nice choice ,Easy way to do this would be to start with a Fender Bassman clone kit with decent transformers, and mod the chassis for all octal tubes , recreate circuit from schematic .Oh ,and Alnico speakers , Jensen's in fact .. These 2 were dissimilar in size 1 of 8 inch and 1 of 12 inch ,and wired in parallel to to efficiently interact with the power amp stage.Imagine the difference if you could isolate one speaker at a time and compare the tone to each other. together , they could be regarded as a two way . That's probably a pretty major part of the GA50 Magic. Hope this is informative To someone and not just an amp nerd rant. cheers..

**docbop** · 12-12-2014, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Stefano

Hi there , This thread sort of inspired me to register and , just in case anyone glances back over this old thread about old tones and old amplifiers , i reckon i would like to express an opinion...
Firstly , i believe that these tones can not be attributed to just an amplifier or a pickup or any one thing , i look at the whole picture starting at the Player . Most of those old tones come right from your hands out of your desire . And yes your choice instrument and pick ups should compliment the way you do that . The important thing about pick ups is not so much about what materials they were made from as much as how they integrate with a particular amplifier . The pickups round the 40's and early 50's were pretty much designed to work with amps of the same era .
Most of this thread is about a guy (hi Harri ) who has pretty much decided to have his dream amp re created ,being a Gibson GA50, nice choice ,Easy way to do this would be to start with a Fender Bassman clone kit with decent transformers, and mod the chassis for all octal tubes , recreate circuit from schematic .Oh ,and Alnico speakers , Jensen's in fact .. These 2 were dissimilar in size 1 of 8 inch and 1 of 12 inch ,and wired in parallel to to efficiently interact with the power amp stage.Imagine the difference if you could isolate one speaker at a time and compare the tone to each other. together , they could be regarded as a two way . That's probably a pretty major part of the GA50 Magic. Hope this is informative To someone and not just an amp nerd rant. cheers..

Something Harri pointed out that is important to factor in is the recording process. Back then as noted they used tube consoles, some studio had basic control boards with volume pots only no tone control. Add to that lots of old ribbon mic's and tube condenser mics. Then they weren't close mic'ing instruments that more of a 60's thing, so the mic's were picking up more of the developed sound of the amp and room. Back when I was a recording engineer one of my mentors worked on a album recorded in this old style were your EQ was via mic selection and mic placement. The studio I worked at had and old RCA rack low and high filter. I was nice to filter out the low end and high end to only the sound of the instrument the mic was on. So figure out how to get a sound like you hear on old recording you have to factor in how they recorded too.

**Stefano** · 12-12-2014, 08:41 AM

Ah, the active high pass and low pass filter. nice , in fact I'm working on a 15 watt tube amp with just that ,instead of a traditional passive eq .. and mic techniques ,i don,t have much experience with , but i understand what you are saying . i have a small open back tube combo amp with a 12 inch alnico speaker , and i like playing back behind it in a corner. If i was to record , i would put a tube mic right there .

**bananafist** · 12-12-2014, 11:28 AM

The OP might be interested to check out the amp built in Europe mentioned in another thread, 'the swing'. Elektra Amplifiers Europe on Strikingly it has that 'old' sound.
That combo rails/polepieces humbucker is similar to the one Paul Yandell (C.Atkins long-time sideman) developed using a supertron/filtertron combination, which TV Jones now offers as a special custom pickup.

**Harri** · 01-02-2015, 06:16 PM

Hi!

Good to see some new posts here in this thread. I'm currently discussing details with an amp builder rikstone.com. He's going to build a Gibson GA50 inspired amp for me. I was just wondering about the speakers. Does anybody know which speakers were in the original GA50 and GA50T? Are they available on todays' market? Perhaps anybody can tell me if Kessel or Hall had any modifications made to their GA50's?

Thanks!

**Little Jay** · 01-02-2015, 07:40 PM

They had Jensen AlNiCo speakers:
http://www.jonesin.org/Dave/GA50t.jpg

**Greentone** · 01-02-2015, 08:10 PM

Yes. They were Jensen P 12 n and P 8 n. Great speakers in a great amp. Best jazz amp ever.

**Harri** · 01-04-2015, 08:31 AM

Wow... These speakers are quite expensive with the P12N at almost 200€ a piece. The amp builder suggested some cheaper, more sensitive and better sounding alternatives. He asked me to check these out:

http://en.uraltone.com/speakers/eminence-guitar/eminence-legend-v12a-12-8ohm-120w-100-9db.htm
Eminence Legend 125 guitar speaker - 12", 8ohm, 75W, 100.1dB - Eminence Guitar - Speakers
Celestion Classic lead - 12", 16ohm, 80W, 99dB - Celestion guitar - Speakers
WGS British Lead Guitar Speaker - 12?, 16ohm, 80W, 98.1dB - WGS speakers - Speakers

As you might know I'm trying to get that vintage jazz guitar sound of Barney Kessel and Jim Hall etc. Does anybody have experiences with these speakers? Would any of them be a good alternative to the Jensen P12N? Any other options/suggestions?

Thanks!

**Little Jay** · 01-04-2015, 07:24 PM

All fine speakers, although I doubt those speakers will yield the same sonic results...... Just different sounds. I played a combo with to 2 P10Rs, just a different sound than ceramic speakers really old school to my ears. I liked them!

The P8N was never reissued by Jensen. The "n" indicates the wattage they can handle, n=50. Jensen only makes the P8R now, rated at 25 watts. You could combine that with a P12R, the R-series are relatively cheap. Just a suggestion!

**Harri** · 01-05-2015, 04:58 AM

Are there any 50W speaker alternatives to the non-reissued P8N? With similar sonic character of course.

**Mr_Dave** · 01-05-2015, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Harri

Are there any 50W speaker alternatives to the non-reissued P8N? With similar sonic character of course.

I'm pretty positive Jensen never made a 50w 8" speaker in the '50's.

Check out the old chart here.

Jensen Speaker Date Codes | 300guitars.com

None of them are 50w.

They changed the letter codes at some point so don't go by the current codes.

I had to recently replace the original 8" speaker in my Gibson GA-30RV and it was probably rated at 10w or so. I used the regular c8r and it sounds fine...very close to the original.

C8R | Jensen Loudspeakers

**Harri** · 01-05-2015, 02:27 PM

Hey, thanks Mr_Dave for that post! I'm still searching for a nice match of 12" and 8" speakers. I'm also considering a 12" and 10" match.

**boatheelmusic** · 01-05-2015, 02:32 PM

Look at the Eminence Cannabis Rex for the 12.....

**Mr_Dave** · 01-05-2015, 02:39 PM

Opps. Sorry I used the p8r.

P8R | Jensen Loudspeakers

My amp still has it's original p12n 12" which sounds great with the 8". But the GA-30RV is probably only a 12-15 watt amp so it doesn't drive the original 20w speaker that hard when run clean.

I'm a big fan of the Eminence Tonker for a 12" speaker that won't break up.