The Sound of 1950's Jazz Guitar

[Harri]

Hi!

I've had my eye on a couple of threads in this forum for a while now. Since I couldn't find answers to some of my questions I decided to register and post a thread. So this is my very first post in this forum.

I've been playing guitar for a little less than 10 years and at the moment I'm studying jazz guitar at university level. My guitar is a 1960 Gibson L4C with same era Gibson McCarty pickup.

I'm really into the 50's guitar sound or at least the jazz guitar sound that I associate with this era. My current favourite albums are "Julie Is Her Name Vol. 1" & Jim Hall's "Jazz Guitar". Though I'm a long time fan of Kessel's playing I really dig Jim's sound on some of his recordings (also with Paul Desmond). They both have quite similar acousticly electric sounds which I love. As Kessel would probably describe it: " It is more an electric guitar sound rather than an electronic guitar sound."

Barney Kessel's sound:

Jim Hall's sound:

Pretty soon I'm going to make a long time investment into a guitar amplifier. I've been doing some research on the guitar sounds of Kessel and Hall on these previously mentioned records. I believe that together with their single coiled Gibson archtops they both used Gibson amplifiers on these sessions. Kessel was playing his modified Gibson ES-350 (CC pickup) through a Gibson BR-3 amp and Hall was playing a Gibson ES-175 (P90 though it sounds a lot like a CC pickup to my ears) through a Gibson GA-50 amp.

I live in Estonia, Europe and have no access to these amps so I was thinking of an alternative... I understand that the recording process in 1950's was very different from today. They had recording tables with tubes etc. This probably coloured the real-life sound of this music quite a lot. Nevertheless I wonder if similar guitar sound could be achieved through a modern hand-built clone of an old Gibson GA-50?

This SeQuel clone reminds me of the tone I'm looking for:

Thanks!
Harri

[kamlapati]

OK, it's a complicated and controversial topic, but I'll take the first swing very much based on my own personal experience.

I believe those great recordings of the 50's were only minimally colored by the amp. The volume is pretty low, with little audible distortion. The amp and speaker frequency response are always there of course. But if all you are trying to duplicate is a specific frequency response you should be able to do it with a good EQ, perhaps in a pedal or perhaps in post processing in the PA or recording gear.

The modern trend is for more full response / hi-fi style jazz guitar amps, think Acoustic Image, and I think the reason for that is that it helps us get closer to the classic tone.

Here's a question for the rest of the forum: do the Gibson amps of the era have a flatter response than Fender's?

[docbop]

Have to remember musicians back in then weren't obsessed with equipment like many are today. As one quote I read "if an amp worked it was a good amp". Recording back then was very different mainly mono, they played as a group, no close mic'ing more room mic's. Also the old studios many had live chambers for their reverb/echo sound. As you noted the recording gear most was tube and added its own color.

Me I wouldn't try to duplicate the gear, I would just use the sound as a model and find a nice tube amp, mic's it from a distance. If have a nice tile bathroom put your amp in there to record to get that live chamber sound. I was lucky enough to work for a studio that had a live chamber and it was a great sound.

[jasonc]

Harri, I think you could definitely get close to that sound. A single-coil equipped guitar going through an old GA-50 would be as close as you're possibly going to get.

[nopedals]

The amp in #3 looks like a clone of a GA-30 (which had a 12 and 8 inch speaker); I will have to go check it out. The audio sample did not sound like the others to me; I am guessing the guitar was humbucker equipped. Strings, picks, and rolling back the volume and tone knobs will affect the tone, too.

No personal experince, but you might want to look at About us too.

[GoergeBenson]

Both players you mention used Laminate maple tops in the era you liked. So to start with, that should be a good place to go. I don't recall many, if any playing a solid topped 16' guitar.
Then in terms of amp, you could spend a lot on a boutique one, then find a cheap solid state that sounds just as good.

As many have pointed out, there was no real gear obsession back then so in a way your kind of working too hard for the result already.

Plus guitars and amps sound different in every room, so you might find that sweet spot in one era but then totally lose it in another.

If you want that 50's tone, then yes I'm sure some sort of P-90 with your average fender tube amp on a laminate topped maple guitar (pref 17") will get you as close as you'll ever get.

I found my smokey 50's tone with my Guild X-700 through pretty much any amp but then I'm going for s slightly thicker smoother tone.

Heres a sound demo I made of it going DI into my iMac through an Apogee. Regardless of the amp it sounds pretty much the same.

Don't get too hung up looking for something that really is quite simple, the guitar has to be the place you start, not the amp IMO.

[wintermoon]

The amp in #3 looks like a clone of a GA-30 (which had a 12 and 8 inch speaker); I will have to go check it out. The audio sample did not sound like the others to me; I am guessing the guitar was humbucker equipped. Strings, picks, and rolling back the volume and tone knobs will affect the tone, too.

No personal experince, but you might want to look at About us too.

that's a GA-50 clone, and sounds pretty close to one listening to that video.

I used a real one exclusively for yrs until I went back to Fenders

[Klatu]

that's a GA-50 clone, and sounds pretty close to one listening to that video.

I used a real one exclusively for yrs until I went back to Fenders

Why did you go back to Fenders? How would you describe the difference between the tones?

[wintermoon]

Why did you go back to Fenders? How would you describe the difference between the tones?

used to play a lot of duo gigs and the GA-50 was fine for them.
over the years I bought a few more as well as a few of the same era GA-75 [15" speaker]
I still have them, but they don't see a lot of play time anymore.

once I began working in bands w/Hammond B-3 organs I needed a lot more juice to cut through, so I started using blackface Vibrolux Reverbs, then switched to blackface Twin Reverbs which is what I still use exclusively.

the old Gibsons have a very warm round [brown] sound, whereas the Fenders are more slick/glassy sounding.

[rpguitar]

If we are talking about the 1950s, remember that the PAF humbucker was introduced in 1957, and might not have found its way into the hands of guitarists and onto records til '58. So 70% of the tones from that decade are from P90s and the odd AlNiCo, CC, or DeArmond pickup. All of these have a sound that's very different from the full, smooth humbucker. I'd say that's a major facet of the 50's tonal stereotype as a result.

[oldane]

One of the things defining that sound in the Kessel/Hall clips is medium to heavy nickel wound flatwound strings (rather than stainless steel wound, which are more twangy). These days that means TI Swing or Benson. A laminated archtop, a single coil PU and those strings should get you there. IMHO you don't need a GA50 clone. A modern ss amp like say a Mambo will come close if you want to avoid the hassle with tubes.

[wintermoon]

If we are talking about the 1950s, remember that the PAF humbucker was introduced in 1957, and might not have found its way into the hands of guitarists and onto records til '58. So 70% of the tones from that decade are from P90s and the odd AlNiCo, CC, or DeArmond pickup. All of these have a sound that's very different from the full, smooth humbucker. I'd say that's a major facet of the 50's tonal stereotype as a result.

I'd say it was higher than 70% RP.
even after the PAF was introduced I don't think a lot of studio guys were using them.
save for 335's and 175's not a lot of L-5's and Super 400's were in use in the studios it seems until well into the 60's
though I know that Robert White from Motown used an L-5 in the 60's. but that was later...

figures also since they were expensive and only 50 or so of each model were made in a given year until the late 60's

[rkwestcoast]

Out of curiousity - I wonder how has recording technology & re-issuing impacted on the sound quality of music recorded in the 1950s?

Would guess that advances in speaker technology and the move to more digital formats has made some difference - and if this is the case can we ever hear the aural quality of music recorded then?

[ruger9]

+1 on the recording techniques of the day playing a BIG part. Still, some of those old octal-tube-based designs (like Vintage 47) do indeed sound closer to the "old tones"....

[2bornot2bop]

This SeQuel clone reminds me of the tone I'm looking for:

Thanks!
Harri

Hi Harri!

I've played that model SeQuel amp. It's local to me in Seattle. it's the finest sounding tube amp I've heard yet. And it sounds identical to the youtube video.

http://stores.soundislandmusic.com/sequel-amplifiers/

I wanted to buy it, but already owned a custom boutique Twin, and decided to keep it. If that amp has the tone you're after, that's exactly what it sounds like.

Another forum member, Eddie Lang, recently bought that amp, and communicated with me via PM several times before buying it. I've sent him a PM on your behalf. The amp is worth every penny its selling for, in my opinion.

The archtop I used to sample the Sequel Tribute was a Heritage Super Kenny Burrell, with a 12 pole PAF, handwound by Kent Armstrong, installed - It was this guitar:

[D.G.]

If you're looking for a "true" 50's tone, you'll need to use 50's type gear. This means no Blackface Fenders and no humbuckers. Frankly, a decent archtop of any kind with a p90 will get you pretty far. Then it's all up to the amp. The amp can make a HUGE difference.

You don't need vintage gear, just gear that is "vintage-esque".

[2bornot2bop]

"vintage-esque" huh?

From the Sound Island website product description of the Sequel Tribute:


"The TRIBUTE archtop Jazz guitar amplifer by SeQuel Amplifiers is a respectful modern interpretation...not a clone...of a famous 1948 amplifier.


We were distinctly honored when the legendary Jim Hall selected the prototype of the SeQuel Tribute for his 4-night concert series at Seattle's Dimitriou's Jazz Alley in March 2011."

[coolvinny]

I'm the happy owner of a Sequel Ravine (50w, 12" speaker, 35 lbs). I think it can nail the 50's tone, and all in all it is just a killer amp. I also think it's a practical amp being very compact and not ridiculously heavy. If the walk from the car will be long, I put it in a small suitcase with wheels...but for a short walk it's very portable. I'm not sure you can do that with the one that has both a 12" and a 8", something to keep in mind if you're going to be a working musician out of jazz school etc...

[Harri]

Thanks, guys! So many good, informative replies here!

I'm very fond of the Verellen Tribute amp's sound. However I'm definitely not considering buying that specific one, because shipping it all the way to Estonia would probably be too expensive and risky. There's an experienced amp builder living not too far from where I live (well... nothing in Estonia is actually too far away 'cause the county is so small). I'm thinking of asking him to build me a hand-built amp based on the GA-50 schematics.

* about the Verellen Tribute - it seems as if they put a simpler 3-knob GA-30 type circuit into a bigger box of a GA-50 and made it louder (30W). Is that possible?

Nice demo GoergeBenson, you really do get a sweet sound with that Guild!

Oldane, I'm exclusively using Thomastik Infeld Swing flatwounds (a set of 12's with the first string swapped for a 0.14). For a while, I used to modify the top end of the stock set for a louder acoustic tone: 0.16, 0.18, 0.20w, 0.27w, 0.37w, 0.50w. The sound was louder but the feel was too tight.

rkwestcoast, if you want to hear what that music used to sound like, I think you should get some vinyls and a decent record player.

2bornot2bop, I'm sure the Tribute was fantastic with that Kenny Burrell guitar. Kenny's great by the way! I wonder how heavy your twin is, must be a pain to carry it around?

[marcwhy]

As much as I lust after certain players' recorded sounds, I know enough about the studio to know that a large percentage of the final "sound" we hear is attributable to the recording gear, the recording engineer's talents, and the mastering engineer's talents. So to attempt that sound in our room or at a gig is, well ... difficult at best. Recording is another art form in itself.

Better, IMO, to find your sound with the gear you have or like, than to emulate a recorded sound. Or, I guess, if you see/hear someone live and enjoy their sound [not a live recording!!], then talk to them a bit to see what you can add to your system.

And BTW: P-90s rule for jazz!

[Doctor Jeff]

My former father-in-law and sister-in-law are Estonian. I had the opportunity to visit there twice in the 90's. Beautiful country, beautiful people.

Do they still drive like maniacs though?

[GuyBoden]

I've been playing guitar for a little less than 10 years and at the moment I'm studying jazz guitar at university level. My guitar is a 1960 Gibson L4C with same era Gibson McCarty pickup.

I have the same Gibson L4C guitar, my guitar is 1949, the pickup is not standard, originally the L4C was acoustic only instruments, but it sounds great for older style Jazz.

This is mine:

[Harri]

Good point, marcwhy. By the way, I haven't heard anyone play live with the distinctive tone I like. But then again, most/all estonian guitar players prefer modern sounds, so I'm not surprised. Teemu Viinikainen from Finland is kind of a multi-oriented player tho, he sometimes plays a non-cutaway L4 with a DeArmond 1100 through a modified Fender Princeton (Reverb). To my ear, he sounds a bit thin yet old-school.

Doctor Jeff, a bit offtopic, but I believe the drivers are much more careful nowadays. Estonia belonged to the USSR for a long time but became independent in 1991. For several stimulus, people have become more intelligent and tolerant here.

GuyBoden, your guitar looks just like mine. The only difference is the pickup, mine is actually meant for non-cutaway guitars, but I don't mind it on my L4C. I believe Grant Green used the same pickup for some recordings (look at the cover of "Idle Moments")

[2bornot2bop]

2bornot2bop, I'm sure the Tribute was fantastic with that Kenny Burrell guitar. Kenny's great by the way! I wonder how heavy your twin is, must be a pain to carry it around?

That amp sounds even better in person...if that's even possible. Nope, the Headstrong never leaves the house.

My former father-in-law and sister-in-law are Estonian. I had the opportunity to visit there twice in the 90's. Beautiful country, beautiful people.

Do they still drive like maniacs though?

What's this? An American who has actually traveled to a FSU country? I'm impressed! But until you've driven in LA, there's maniacal driving, and then there's driving in another world.

[Hammertone]

….something to keep in mind if you're going to be a working musician out of jazz school etc...

Bwahahaha…you crack me up. You don't need an amp at all to say "would you like fries with that"…..