Using HIGH quality capacitors help tone

[PTChristopher]

Elias,

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

My comment is really not directed toward a single view or post, but more based on the general leap from the convenient description of signal "flow" and then the common over-reach of the analogy of flow to describing circuit components as being in or out of this "flow".

And to go too far (why not in this odd thread), we all do this even in very formalized and "scientific" ways. For example, Euclidean geometry says something to the effect that two parallel lines will never meet. Now this is not actually "true" in reality, but is merely a convenience we all use to build cities and shoe boxes. It is accurate enough on the modest scales we use day to day.

(Way out there now,... General Relativity relegated Euclidean geometry to a convenient tool, and fine theoretical framework, but not a "true" description of any space containing matter.)

Anyway, we all do it - over-reach with convenient analogy and, in effect, make stuff up. I try to catch myself when I do it. I fail often enough.

In my opinion.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Hi Newsense,

Thanks for the info.

I only mentioned the Dissipation Factor as an attempt to find any possible explanation (no matter how unlikely to have a practical effect) to support those who feel they detect a difference based on cap type.

Thanks again.

Chris

[stevedenver]

river
caps do make a difference in a guitars sound

i have ...not only a jazz guitar or two, but ironically, many les pauls for rock and blues etc

i have a great deal of experience in changing pots as well as caps-i did this a good deal in my LPs getting just what i liked with the pups i use-and i did this on 5 of them
not only the values of each cap, but the brands as well (not my LP with a stock brass nut-which i agree i cannot hear any greater sustain due to the nut)

while i use inexpensive hovland oil in papers .022mf, for humbucker equipped guitars, these seem most musical to my ear-and btw that is from not only a clean via twin sound, but also via the marshall with seven gain stages, the tweed deluxe and some others too-my point is that it is universal in coloring the signal through a variety of amps

i also used some ceramics which were really terrible, shrill and harsh and ice pick like-same value-

so wtf is 'musical'

i dont have the tech 'why'-but i have ears and theres no question they make a difference-and i dont consider myself a real cork sniffer inthis way


and especially with my guitars clean and lower in volume via the twin-they jsut sound sweet and round and warm and pleasant comparatively


heres the deal, and its simple and its subjective
you have to buy the damned stuff and give it a go...ie tone tuition i call it

you unsolder the old cap and put in the new , button er up and play, and only you can make the call

and yes i have a few parts that i tried and dont use

i like 500K stereo taper pots for vol and tone, and i like hovlands paper in oil-the 500 will seem more clear and 'treble' as opposed to say 300k which can sound muddy

tone pot will actually work

and instead of between 1-3 off to full tilt, stereo or audio tapers give you a wider range of fine control between 1-10

otoh, if you like a short throw , ie a little short roll with the pinky -the linears are what you want

i would be ....hesitant to spend much over 15-20 max for this type of tone tuition-why..because i doubt any guitar youve ever heard has used much over a 1.50 cap...and there are a lot of nice ones doing it

otoh, i firmly believe nicer pots, like CTS, -higher quality and the 'appropriate' resistance to the type of pup, makes a world of difference , depending on what you like-many older gibson indeed use 300k pots-and these can be great depending on application and amp etc-for the most part i dont like them because the guitars usually sound a bit muffled

so id say go for it and report please!

[va3ux]

I know oil and paper capacitors are supposed to give a smoother soound, for some reason. It doesn't seem like jazz guitarists obsess over this like the rockers playing Les Pauls do. Which seems the opposite of what I'd expect, given the high end guitars some jazz players have.

I'm into high end stereo - hifi - and one can pay hundreds for a handmade cap for your tube amp or preamp, say a Hovland Musicap or a Teflon Vcap
(see The Great Capacitor Shoot-Out if you are interested).

I play jazz guitars, neck pickup only, and tone matters. Any idea if replacing the caps in my guitar with these really high end signal path caps would make my guitar sound better? I have often wondered about this because some luthiers' jazz guitars cost $15K with the most incredible exotic wood but they are using $5 electronic parts in the circuits.

Thanks for any insights here.....

Jim

The problem with this theory is that tone caps in guitar pickup circuits are bypass caps, The signal going to your amp does NOT pass through the tone cap. The portion of the signal that gets bled to ground does go through the cap (bypassed) and of course that doesn't go to your amp. So how does that help the tone you hear ? This is one cap that is not worth spending much money on at all.

[PTChristopher]

This is pretty funny really.

We do understand that there is no signal going "through" anything, right? We just use those words for convenience.

Let's try this yet another way,...

If the tone cap has no affect on tone because it is not in the "signal path", then why not use a frozen squirrel turd instead of a capacitor? Or why not use a cap with some random value?

What the cap shunts to ground, very much affects what is not shunted to ground. This component does not have a reduced affect (or one lacking some unspecified and non-existent special subtlety) because it is not in what we call the "signal path".

Now this does not at all mean that the type of cap matters at all. It is just that it is simply not the case to suggest that a tone cap, shunting parts of a signal to ground will not have specific impact on the remaining signal.

Maybe a public forum is better seen as entertainment and absolutely nothing else?

This has been a really interesting thread in its own way, in my opinion. Not regarding capacitors so much (but great link to a study and info from Newsense).

[va3ux]

Good lord. The value of the cap along with the pot value affects the tone and the shape the response curve. What the cap is made of - in this application - has essentially no effect on the tone. What is passing through the cap is the part of the signal that is never heard. There could be minor differences based on cap construction (ceramic, paper, polystyrene, etc), but not the sort of difference that $35 for boutique caps vs $1 for standard construction would justify. Even at that the differences aren't better/worse; they're just differences.

This is pretty funny really.

We do understand that there is no signal going "through" anything, right? We just use those words for convenience.

Let's try this yet another way,...

If the tone cap has no affect on tone because it is not in the "signal path", then why not use a frozen squirrel turd instead of a capacitor? Or why not use a cap with some random value?

What the cap shunts to ground, very much affects what is not shunted to ground. This component does not have a reduced affect (or one lacking some unspecified and non-existent special subtlety) because it is not in what we call the "signal path".

Now this does not at all mean that the type of cap matters at all. It is just that it is simply not the case to suggest that a tone cap, shunting parts of a signal to ground will not have specific impact on the remaining signal.

Maybe a public forum is better seen as entertainment and absolutely nothing else?

This has been a really interesting thread in its own way, in my opinion. Not regarding capacitors so much (but great link to a study and info from Newsense).

[TieDyedDevil]

Here's how I approach discussions in which much is made of the sonic properties of different components, and especially of the inherent "quality" of one component when compared to another:

I have no quibbles with the observation that changing components yields, more often than not, a change in the sound. I know this to be true from direct experimentation.

The aspect of these discussions that gets my hackles up is the notion that a particular brand of component has properties which makes it intrinsically superior to other components of comparable function and value.

When faced with someone who fervently believes that such a brand superiority exists, I invariably say: "Well then, listen to this and tell me which brands of components are in use."

Let's face it: if your hearing is *that* acute, then you must be able to not only appreciate the superiority of the expensive part you've just installed, but must also have quite an inventory of listening experiences from which to draw your no-doubt-accurate conclusions. (Was that last phrase sarcastic? Why, yes, it was!)

I personally have no issue with the amount of money that anyone spends on anything. You earned it; you're entitled to spend it in whatever way suits your world view. What I WILL NOT sit still for is sloppy thinking; especially sloppy thinking that panders to one's superior financial resources as a primary justification.

[PTChristopher]

>>> The value of the cap along with the pot value affects the tone and the shape the response curve.

100% agreed.

>>> What the cap is made of - in this application - has essentially no effect on the tone.

100% agreed. Some feel very strongly otherwise. Some feel that in ANY application is has no effect.

>>> What is passing through the cap is the part of the signal that is never heard.

Not exactly. This is where the words we commonly use get misleading.

Agreed that the cap technology has no practical effect at all, but not because of the somewhat misleading words we use to describe its position in the circuit.

[FrankyNoTone]

As for the cap acting as a piezoelectric pickup - this idea does have some basis of truth. Ceramic capacitors are manufactured from barium titanate. Pure barium titanate is indeed piezoelectric. It has the same crystal structure as lead zirconate titanate (PZT) from which the majority of piezo ceramic pickups are manufactured. However, for capacitors, the barium titanate is highly modified by the addition of other oxides to flatten out its temperature dependence of capacitance. These additions virtually destroy all the piezoelectricity so that it is barely measurable...

Based on this and some other comments, I get the feeling that you are familiar more with higher spec components than what's out there for general consumer use. The consumer grade stuff made with Class II ceramics can be pretty bad.

...PZT is in danger of being banned in Europe, Japan and elsewhere due to its lead content....

That's interesting to hear how far the regulations are getting. In comparison to the miniscule amount on a transducer, I replaced my UPS batteries tonight and that has several pounds of lead. And I guess my roll of lead solder will have to last my lifetime.

[stevedenver]

The problem with this theory is that tone caps in guitar pickup circuits are bypass caps, The signal going to your amp does NOT pass through the tone cap. The portion of the signal that gets bled to ground does go through the cap (bypassed) and of course that doesn't go to your amp. So how does that help the tone you hear ? This is one cap that is not worth spending much money on at all.

so, if this is the case, what is that i hear when i change caps in the pot control area?

[pingu]

OK I'll bite ........

A HiFi amp shouldn't have a sound/colour the sound
It should just make the signal bigger

The quest of making amps that just amplify and don't
colour the sound was reached many years ago

(they are quite cheap to manufacture too)

Accurate Hi Fi speakers are impossible to make
and each do have a sound/colour
so you pays your money etc ........

Guitar amps should have a sound/colour
(they're cheap to make too)

The expensive HiFi Amp thing is BS
So is the cable thing
The expensive Speaker thing is not necessarily BS
(some of it is)

Sorry , had to bite

[2bornot2bop]

OK I'll bite ........

A HiFi amp shouldn't have a sound/colour the sound
It should just make the signal bigger

The quest of making amps that just amplify and don't
colour the sound was reached many years ago

(they are quite cheap to manufacture too)

Accurate Hi Fi speakers are impossible to make
and each do have a sound/colour
so you pays your money etc ........

Guitar amps should have a sound/colour
(they're cheap to make too)

The expensive HiFi Amp thing is BS
So is the cable thing
The expensive Speaker thing is not necessarily BS
(some of it is)

Sorry , had to bite

Are you suggesting a mega dollar Class A amp won't produce music any better than a cheaper produced Class A/B amp?

If that's true, you've not listened to good gear. Clearly a Jeff Rowland, Conrad Johnson, Balanced Audio Technology, Pass Labs, ad infinitum are heads and tails about Adcom gear.

Even a newbie listener can distinguish the difference between what's musical and what's harsh and grainy, imo.

[pingu]

[Q

UOTE=2bornot2bop;251804]Are you suggesting a mega dollar Class A amp won't produce music any better than a cheaper produced Class A/B amp?

yes if its well designed (cambridge , Denon or whatever)

If that's true, you've not listened to good gear. Clearly a Jeff Rowland, Conrad Johnson, Balanced Audio Technology, Pass Labs, ad infinitum are heads and tails about Adcom gear.

Even a newbie listener can distinguish the difference between what's musical and what's harsh and grainy, imo.

Do these high end amps sound different to each other ?
They shouldn't ............
They shouldn't sound like anything

I'm just saying spend your dough on the speakers
not the amp

[2bornot2bop]

[Q

yes if its well designed (cambridge , Denon or whatever)




Do these high end amps sound different to each other ?
They shouldn't ............
They shouldn't sound like anything

I'm just saying spend your dough on the speakers
not the amp

Truly, all high end amps sound different from one another for each has their own sonic presentation. Some present a wider, deeper, sound stage, while others have a warmer and more natural presentation than others.

Some amps sound down right sterile and fatiguing to the ear. These are all known amplifier givens to anyone who has experienced listening to high end gear over many years.

Simply stating the obvious brother, but had you posted a statement on audiogon or audio asylum that suggested all amps sound alike you'd immediately be laughed, or flamed, out of the building.

What good is it to invest more into the end of the audio chain, the speakers, if the chain has been nullified and muddied by an amp not capable of producing what the speakers are capable of...this is pure common sense. No offense intended, but your statement doesn't jive with actual user experiences of the majority of audiophiles. Perhaps you've simply no personal experience with Class A amps, if so, which amps have you listened to to develop such an opinion...just curious.

[Jim Soloway]

I've checked in on this thread from time to time but I quickly came to believe that my time was better spent practicing. It occurs to me that the most time consuming and detailed gear discussions always seem to revolve around the gear that has the smallest impact.

[Klatu]

This has been an entertaining and informative thread, but there may have been a few casualties along the way. I noticed that the OP hasn't posted much since he got his capacitor "beat down". This is a shame considering many great players don't know all that much about the technical aspects of their instruments. If this guy (or gal) ceases to post, we will never find out if he's a solid player or someone who can contribute to threads regarding theory.

I don't have an answer to the following question, but I think it would be wise to consider it: Is it possible to tell someone that they are completely off the mark without scaring them off, starting a flame war, or otherwise hurting their feelings?

[Jim Soloway]

This has been an entertaining and informative thread, but there may have been a few casualties along the way. I noticed that the OP hasn't posted much since he got his capacitor "beat down". This is a shame considering many great players don't know all that much about the technical aspects of their instruments. If this guy (or gal) ceases to post, we will never find out if he's a solid player or someone who can contribute to threads regarding theory.

I don't have an answer to the following question, but I think it would be wise to consider it: Is it possible to tell someone that they are completely off the mark without scaring them off, starting a flame war, or otherwise hurting their feelings?

It's an interesting (and fair) question but I think one of the basic rules of life on internet forums is that the more extreme the proposition and/or the more forcefully it's presented, the more extreme and forceful the response is going to be.

[PTChristopher]

Great question Klatu.

I took the original post to be a fair question, and there was a fair answer from Mr. Beaumont - who then got crapped on.

So the "tone" was sort of set at that point and I think that the OP eventually got quite a good sampling of the views around here - and rather understandable treatment considering everything.

But yeah, more patience would always be a good idea; thanks for bringing it up.

I got Elias' nose out of joint, for which I am sorry. But I am at a loss as to how to respond to things that are stated as fact when they are not even opinion, but grossly mistaken interpretations of simplified analogies. I suppose you just accept that the real product of such a public discussion is the fun of a forum and a pleasant, if sometimes remarkably mistaken, eventual consensus.

I am going to try to stay to things like, "Hey, I like amber-colored volume knobs too!"

Chris

[Spook410]

Ears are mechanical devices. They have limits. If you can't see a response on electronic test equipment demonstrating audible deltas in one cap versus another, it doesn't matter. There might be something detectable if you choose the right magnified scale and maybe test gear can see it, but you can't hear it. And, no, you can't sense it either. This has been done many times but people still insist on spending their money on expensive caps. Baffles me. Power of marketing I guess. Engineers pick caps based on form factor, tolerance, power handling, and cost.

I would also add that guitar makers have never used anything but inexpensive caps in their guitars. Like the way electric guitars have sounded for the last 50 years or so? You're hearing garden variety caps.

[PTChristopher]

>>> garden variety caps

A few years ago I was trying to buy a volume pedal. The guy (kid, really) showed me a volume-wah, volume-toaster, volume-centrifuge, but no basic volume pedal.

I said I wanted a "garden variety" volume pedal, and he took out the supplier book and looked under "G". Really.

Chris

[2bornot2bop]

Ears are mechanical devices. They have limits. If you can't see a response on electronic test equipment demonstrating audible deltas in one cap versus another, it doesn't matter. There might be something detectable if you choose the right magnified scale and maybe test gear can see it, but you can't hear it. And, no, you can't sense it either. This has been done many times but people still insist on spending their money on expensive caps. Baffles me. Power of marketing I guess. Engineers pick caps based on form factor, tolerance, power handling, and cost.

I would also add that guitar makers have never used anything but inexpensive caps in their guitars. Like the way electric guitars have sounded for the last 50 years or so? You're hearing garden variety caps.

That opinion perhaps could be better aimed towards guitar gear only, for it certainly doesn't fly in the audio kingdom, for it makes as much sense as the earlier statement suggesting "all amps sound the same."

Caps matter. If you think they don't you've not heard the difference between paper and oil caps, vs. also ran's. 40 years of listening to good gear versus ordinary gear will teach one to trust their ears...besides, quite the contrary, the spec's which are tested under all conditions support what the ear is hearing. Distortion is either extremely reduced or it's not. Generally the better the gear the lower the point of distortion. This is basic elementary stuff gathered from any Stereophile or other type audio magazine that have been in circulation for 40 years. But one doesn't need to read a single article to tell them what their trained ears already have. There's more to good gear than just marketing hype, imo.

[jorgemg1984]

This thread has actually become quite interesting. Klatu I understand your feelings but I actually think this thread has been very civilized and with tons of information; I also think the OP did not get what he wanted and went to other places to get it.

This discussion actually points out two schools of thought I see a lot 1) people that claim a new op amp on a TS just gave them the best sound ever (TGP style) 2) gear is irrelevant, everything sounds the same (rational style)

I am obviously caricaturing things but I think usually the truth is in the middle of this two trends (I am speaking in general, not in this thread in particular).

Chris do you think as people listen changes in tone because they want to, you don't hear them because you're rational / tech side is already biasing you to think that? Isn't the psychological argument valid to both sides? (I hope I don't upset you with this questions, I am just trying to start what I think it's a very interesting question).

PS - It's good to see this forum back to good shape after some really nasty threads some months ago. This really is one of the best places to discuss gear,

[Klatu]

>>> garden variety caps

A few years ago I was trying to buy a volume pedal. The guy (kid, really) showed me a volume-wah, volume-toaster, volume-centrifuge, but no basic volume pedal.

I said I wanted a "garden variety" volume pedal, and he took out the supplier book and looked under "G". Really.

Chris

Did it smell like a freshly mowed lawn?

[PTChristopher]

Hi Jorge,

>>> Chris do you think as people listen changes in tone because they want to, you don't hear them because you're rational / tech side is already biasing you to think that? Isn't the psychological argument valid to both sides?

I think the psych argument is absolutely valid in both directions.

I do think that I am open to anything making a difference in sound, but I do need to either hear it myself (with as little predisposition as possible to hearing what is not there) or measure it in some dispassionate way. And then ALSO combine the concept behind the change with the actual change, AND look for other more mundane possible causes for the change.

So some robust examination vs. ecstatic, "I hear it and I'm special!" reaction.

Also, I like to consider the practical scope of a difference. I hear differences from one basic PAF to another. But the differences are so small that they are overwhelmed by things like a 5 degree (or much less) turn of a tone control. So in my view, most deep love for a boutique PAF comes from the "consumer ego experience". Others feel differently.

I hear and measure absolutely no difference whatsoever from one tone cap type to another, with the same actual capacitance value. I see others gushing over differences while ignoring the markings on a cap showing a very wide tolerance of values.

So yeah, I am skeptical and critical of the mix of psych factors and unexamined actual variations.

But 100% agreed that any "it's all in your head" argument works both ways, and I am no less obliged than anyone else to come up with conceptual and empirical support for my observations.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

["garden variety" volume pedal]

>>> Did it smell like a freshly mowed lawn?

Yes, but mowing a volume pedal is trickier than anyone said it would be.

I actually ended up with an Ernie Ball Jr. pedal. The pot is small and I am skeptical of its long-term wear with the smaller contact area vs. a larger pot. But it does work just fine.

Chris