Using HIGH quality capacitors help tone

[FrankyNoTone]

Who knows why $100k was thrown about as a bar for loudspeakers for that amount is clearly not required to gain very very exceptional performance. Imho, loudspeakers costing much much less can rival the performance levels of far more expensive gear. It's a mistake in audio to throw money at a system to see what sticks...we've all done it, and after doing so one learns how not to do that for expense for the sake of expense won't guarantee a "better" result. It only guarantees you've spent more than the other guy.

I agree with you , but $100k for speakers is the bar set when we're talking about a level where capacitors are more than $100 each. Some speakers cost in the millions, and some capacitors cost in the thousands.

Each level has its proponents who think that those above are spending too much and those below are not spending enough. And yes, spending more isn't a guarantee for better results, but neither is there certainty that it won't.

But I'm pretty sure that everyone believes (for example to illustrate my point) that spending $99k on speakers and $1k on everything else is highly unsound. This is the very sentiment that the OP expressed.

So how about a more reasonable example: given a starting point of $5k for guitar, what is the allocation for amp, cab, et. all down to caps? As a note, my former hi end audio store is selling Russian power tubes for $100.

[Dad3353]

Yeah . . . I'm sure self serving political and/or geo-political statements like this one go a long way to help answer the OP's question about tone caps. It also goes a long way to (gently..?) demean those of us who may not be on quite the "save the world" mission that you are.

Step # 1 . . . . brain in motion
Step # 2 . . . . mouth in gear

Perhaps cause lost to some, but I'll refute this anyway. I have no agenda, and no 'political and/or geo-political' axe to grind. I have no mission. The OP asked for 'insight'; I gave mine. I maintain that undue worry over things that don't exist should be addressed medically, and that due worrying over things of this importance are truly luxury. Everyone has their own conscience to use as to the real 'worth' of such tone-enhancing searches, and spend accordingly. I make no judgement except on my own choices. All are free to take what they will from my posts, and misconstrue my motivations if they will, but all the b***sh** is not necessarily from me. There are others. Spend away, if such is your wont, but you will not change my experiences in the matter. If no moral opinions are ever aloud here, then the debate is lessened, in my view.

[river251]

My audio preamp is a $9k Balanced Audio Technology VK51SE. It uses Russian 6H30P Super tubes, which were exclusively designed to operate in Soviet Migs at one time. The tube was eventually imported to the US by Russian expatriate Victor Khomenko, part owner and primary designer of BAT. BAT had an exclusive on the 6H30P for the better part of 10 years, and the remainder of the audio tube gear kingdom couldn't wait to get their hands on it. And of course the afforementioned preamp operates custom Vishay paper in oil capacitors, not because they're expensive, but because they produce a level of performance that justifies their cost to the manufacturer and listener alike.

Very nice gear. I read some good threads on the 6H30P on agon. I don't hang out there much since they changed agon and have been gravitating to Asylum and Audiokarma. I just bought the Music Reference RM-9 that was on agon and am going to try the Lightspeed Attenuator. I'd love to try a BAT (and a CAT and a VAC and a VTL and an Atmasphere and an Air Tight and a Leben and a ........) but they are out of my league right now. My Macs and 8B with my CJ pre are too thick and not clear enough with my new (old) Proacs thus my upgrades. But your system sounds much higher end than mine. Yes the Mundorfs came out well in the cap shootout I linked in my first msg IIRC.

I play jazz (ahem, well working on it) guitar at low volume. I love the sound of the wood and thought a high end cap might let that through with greater fidelity. Again, I'll just have to try it, it was silly to think that many guitarists would have tried a crazy audiophile thing like this with their guitar.

Thanks for the reply.

Jim

[river251]

River, you seem to be maintaining a relatively good sense of humor about all this. But obviously it is the wrong question for the wrong audience. I like this forum because these people are focused on their music and are not gear heads.

You'll notice they talk mostly about which guitar does what and not about what to do to a guitar to make it better.

Yes, point taken and agreed with.

I am exceedingly glad this forum exists, because the hifi and the guitar are to me just vehicles (sometimes overly distracting ones) to get to what matters: jazz. And I am not yet a jazz player. And so thank goodness for this place. You're right, it was the wrong question for this place. But I may try it some day and report on it here.
Thanks much,
Jim

[river251]

And like I said, my $25k on hifi gear didn't include any of that. So you better have spent much more than that on your gear if you're hangin' with that crowd. The minimum bar for speakers, for example, is $100k.

No, actually I was just being snippy. My system is probably worth about 15k including my several redundant amplifiers and integrated amps, all old vintage stuff. I recently drove to San Diego to get some hard to find ProAc One SCs, paid $1000 for them including $500 stands. They're killer! I took them all over southern Cal and Arizona comparing them to other monitors and some Gallos, and am very pleased with my purchse. I'm more likely to go now into the DIY deep end than buy super high end speakers. But if I had the $3500 to spend, I'd go for some Harbeth Compact 7s and be happy. Second choice, some Dunlavy IVa's. But I'm pretty content.

I've listened to the real high end stuff at Stereophile shows but it's out of my range.

Jim

[river251]

Hey riv, I need to update the site...

My main gits are a Hofner Verythin and a Heritage 575...neither needed any modifications to suit my needs.

Nice man. I have lusted for the Verythin.

[PTChristopher]

Deleted

[2bornot2bop]

As a note, my former hi end audio store is selling Russian power tubes for $100.

All Russian power tubes are not created equal. A new set of Svetlana EL34's will cost you $150. A new set of 6H30P's will cost you $1200. That's a lot of ruble's.

Whomever made the comment of poor people have better lives, traveling the former Soviet Union countries taught me that very thing. Here these folks on average were making $50 per month, yet they were some of the most active and happiest people on the planet. I had to go to Ukraine and Russia to learn that lesson first hand. It ain't about the stuff ya' got or what you don't got..As Wayne Dyer put it so aptly, "here in the west we're so busy trying to get what someone else has we're too busy lookin' in each others pocket books instead of looking into each other's eyes."

[mike g]

32 posts on caps.

[PTChristopher]

Deleted

[FrankyNoTone]

>>> 32 posts on caps.

Not at all. I guess it is a web requirement to get this sort of comment.

A little about caps, a little about "high end" markets, a little about mythology, a little about the nature of satisfaction, and one inaccurate near-summary.

Quite tame actually compared to the whacky world of TheGearPage. One of many discussions on caps:
Capacitors...can you hear the difference? - Page 12 - The Gear Page

Which per internet behavioral patterns, devolves into comments like:

I prefer my dogs to my girl friend...

[2bornot2bop]

I prefer my dogs to my girl friend...

Depending upon the time of the month I can identify with that statement.

[PTChristopher]

>>> Quite tame actually compared to the whacky world of TheGearPage.

I understand, but I'll give the Gear Page a skip if you don't mind. I really enjoy this site, and hope any TGP vibe will not settle in.

Chris

[2bornot2bop]

The rear of Quadral Auram Titan loudspeakers.

Note the high quality German Mundorf caps once again....those quality caps are everywhere.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quadral-Auru...item43b2e651a5

[AlsoRan]

I know oil and paper capacitors are supposed to give a smoother soound, for some reason. It doesn't seem like jazz guitarists obsess over this like the rockers playing Les Pauls do. Which seems the opposite of what I'd expect, given the high end guitars some jazz players have.

Thanks for any insights here.....

Jim

You are a patient soul, river. This thread kind of reminds me of the old men muppets in the balcony of the muppet show.

In regard to tone chasing, it can get pretty crazy. I read more than a few articles about Eric Johnson being able to tell the difference between brands of batteries that he puts in some of his pedals by the change in tone. Then there are those that obsess the wiring between potentiometers or the type of guitar cable one uses.

I wonder sometimes how much of the "change" is psychosomatic as opposed to reality.

I am going to check out your link, just out of curiosity. I don't think this is a subject in which you can get a 100% true answer, try as you may, especially on this forum. Hee, Hee.

Duck, here comes another rotten egg from the balcony!

[PTChristopher]

>>> I wonder sometimes how much of the "change" is psychosomatic as opposed to reality.

It was a poor choice to give an opinion on this; I'll delete earlier posts. Indeed the Gear Page.

[FrankyNoTone]

...I really enjoy this site, and hope any TGP vibe will not settle in.

I do find TGP entertaining but agree, this is a more civilized forum.

The rear of Quadral Auram Titan loudspeakers.

Note the high quality German Mundorf caps once again....those quality caps are everywhere.

Cool design, kinda like some overclocking/gaming computer rigs that I've seen. And the Torx(?) screws reinforce a classy "you can look but you can't touch" vibe

But, I was not a fan of speaker level crossovers and true bi-amping with line level filtering was where I was heading back in the day. I see those speakers have that capability but I felt the crossover negatively impacted the response even in this configuration.

A decade or so ago, tech was emerging for active speakers with the driver, amp and electronic crossovers all carefully designed to work in unison. I haven't perused the current hi fi offerings but in the guitar/music world I see such units are coming along nicely (I like what I see in the Yamaha FRFR PA systems). The high end Yamaha units use all digital crossovers and ambient compensation that can achieve perfect "brick wall" filtering in the digital domain if necessary.

The only thing remaining is to keep everything digital, preferably 24bit/96k, from say a guitar processor to the active speakers.

As for the source side of things, there are those who do not believe in any passive tone/volume controls on the guitar itself. For one, this allows the precise use of presets on guitar processors. For another, it keeps the pickup signal full and pure to a preamp where any necessary filtering or adjustments can be made with higher fidelity and sophistication (i.e. much better than the traditional RC filtering in the guitar itself).

[LtKojak]

I play jazz guitars, neck pickup only, and tone matters. Any idea if replacing the caps in my guitar with these really high end signal path caps would make my guitar sound better?

Basic Electric Guitar Circuits 2: Pots & Tone Capacitors | Amplified Parts

Here you can read about what a tone circuit is in a guitar and what affects what and how, from a technical point of view.

I think after reading that you'll be able to answer your own question.

In my opinion as a guitar tech for over thirteen years is: it depends, for you first need to define what "better" sounds like.

FWIW, the caps I usually install in mine and my customer's guitars are these:

Mojo Capacitors Mojotone Vitamin T (Oil Filled) .022uF @ 600V

You can pay a lot more for other caps, but the outcome is indistinguishable from the most expensive ones.

HTH,

[2bornot2bop]

Cool design, kinda like some overclocking/gaming computer rigs that I've seen. And the Torx(?) screws reinforce a classy "you can look but you can't touch" vibe.

I thought it was cool that a manufacturer took it upon themselves to display the crossover network in their speaker, for 99.9% of the time you don't get to see the CN for it's housed in the interior. Who knows what the speaker sounds like?

Me, I'm a non traditionalist sound guy. Boxed speakers beset with their annoying decades old limitations is so old school. The new thing is a design that thinks outside the box. Boxless bass is best. OB, aka, "open baffle" dipole design's are king in my audio kingdom. The most accurate bass you've ever heard...sounds like Ray Brown is right there in the room...tight, fast as an electrostat, and natural. And baffles made of natural Sapele wood created from the hands of a Pacific Northwest master craftsman in the age old tradition of guitar building. Do you know what it takes to create that Racquel Welch shape from a plank of 2x8's!?

Each 15" driver was designed for open baffle use only. These mojo's shake some serious air brother! The mid ribbon-horn combo's are a modern day version of the former Heil EMT, manufactured in Germany, and only used in this speaker as an exclusive open baffle mount mid horn driver. 3, count 'em, 3 watts of SET magic, single ended tube for the uninitiated, fill a 30x20' room with all the volume you can stand...this my friend is audio nirvana...tube bliss, and home built baby. Take your hot Class A high powered mega watt ultra expensive heavy power amp and use it as a paper weight.

Trane' has left the building!

[jorgemg1984]

Yeah, I agree, some of the hifi people do seem to have lost their focus to me. But I think for the most part that they do spend a lot of time listening to some pretty good sounding music. I bought most of my current system 20 years ago and have been happy. Moving to a new environment forced purchase of some new speakers then I wasn't happy with the sound and decide to try a new amp or preamp to fix it. But I think I manage to spend a lot more time listening to music and practicing than fussing with hifi. I was about to design and build a single ended amp, but instead found an amp to buy, so did so in order that I could return all that time it would take to learn how to design an amp and build it, to studying jazz guitar playing, instead. If I can stay focused, I might be able to improvise over two, maybe even three different chords before I retire.

Do you remember what caps you put in your guitars?

Jim

Bare Knuckles Jensen ones. My luthier always them in stock and loves them.

[feet]

the 100% super ultimate indisputable truth that nobody can deny because the internet said so:

-cap values matter, cap materials do not*
-it only matters if your knob settings aren't on 10
-cap values drift over time, so "vintage" ones may not be a good idea

honestly, only change them if you are already in there, or if you are a tinkerer or tone chaser by nature. i've changed them in every guitar i dug into because why not? i'm already changing pups and pots, and what's another $5-10 bucks, if i'm never going to mess with it again and the guitar will accrue millions of hours of use**?

but paying more than than $10-15 is (probably) foolish. rs caps, orange drops, russian pio, they all work. i use the middle pickup position a lot, and i'm constantly messing with the volume and tone knobs, so its worth it to me. the stuff that's in most guitars is worth about 9 cents, so throwing a few bucks that way doesn't matter in the long run.

*- they do, but so very negligibly it isn't worth chasing
**- actual use may vary

[SamBooka]

-it only matters if your knob settings aren't on 10
-

if it is in the circuit it matters... even at 10.

I havent been able to get into the whole pio vs pita vs ceramic thing and amd keeping my mouth shut... but i just wanted to point that one line out...

back to my nap.

[feet]

you are correct, senor. i get this windmill mixed with the pots windmill because they both come up so often.

i should also state that although it does matter, it doesn't to the extent that a bridge, pickup, strings, wood, picks, etc do (well, a cap value change would...). don't over think it. find what works and move on. you guitar has knobs. your amp has knobs. try those instead. they're free.

here's the first in a series of videos on the topic if you have all the time in the world and you just have to know:

[kenbennett]

In a guitar tone circuit, the signal that you hear does not actually go through the cap. Only the high frequencies that are being rolled off go through the cap and tone pot. The part of the signal that you hear only goes through wire at that point.

So, the value of the cap matters a lot. But the materials don't matter as much as they would if the cap were being used to couple stages in an amplifier.

[ruger9]

I do find TGP entertaining but agree, this is a more civilized forum.


).

Really? I haven't been here that long, and I have already seen condescension to equal TGP. (and would probably have seen alot more in this thread if PT Christopher hadn't deleted most of his posts.)

On most forums I frequent, "there's no such thing as a stupid question", but on here, I have seen, there most certainly IS.