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I know oil and paper capacitors are supposed to give a smoother soound, for some reason. It doesn't seem like jazz guitarists obsess over this like the rockers playing Les Pauls do. Which seems the opposite of what I'd expect, given the high end guitars some jazz players have.
I'm into high end stereo - hifi - and one can pay hundreds for a handmade cap for your tube amp or preamp, say a Hovland Musicap or a Teflon Vcap
(see The Great Capacitor Shoot-Out if you are interested).
I play jazz guitars, neck pickup only, and tone matters. Any idea if replacing the caps in my guitar with these really high end signal path caps would make my guitar sound better? I have often wondered about this because some luthiers' jazz guitars cost $15K with the most incredible exotic wood but they are using $5 electronic parts in the circuits.
Thanks for any insights here.....
Jim
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08-26-2012 07:19 AM
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If you've got the money for it, and that's what scratches that itch, then by all means go for it. For my part, I know that my old ears can hear no difference. Even if I could, my money would be better spent improving the planet in some way (donation to the Red Cross, or Unicef or whatever...) rather than chasing this particular phantom. If one is seriously troubled by the sound of a capacitor (Les Paul or any guitar...), I think that the fine line between sane and insane has been crossed.
There are 3rd world problems and 1st world problems. This is definitely 1st world.
Only my opinion, of course, but I'm quite willing to (gently..?) mock all others.
Hope this helps.
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I think most jazz players figure "I only have so much time, I might as well spend it practicing."
Originally Posted by river251
Honestly, I never gave much thought as to why...but I know I like being around other jazz players because the stuff we obsess over is quantifiable, unlike the somewhat abstract concept of "good tone."
I think you'll still find some gear heads and tinkerers on a jazz guitar forum, though...we're still guitar players
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This is pretty obviously a technical question. Who cares if you don't think it's an important question to you? I didn't ask if you think it's important, I asked if anybody knew what the effect would be. If you are going to dismiss me because of the cost of the cap I'm talking about, or because I'm even wondering about it, do you equally dismiss people paying thousands of dollars for jazz guitars, when they could buy an Epiphone for $500?
Sheesh, hope this whole thread doesn't go this way.
By the way, Jeff, congrats on the addition to your family. I popped over to your web site to find out what kind of guitar you have so I could make my point better, but you don't list them, so I guess you are true to your word that you worry more about your playing than your gear. Good for you.
I'm still wondering about the cap though. I wondered if I should post it in this forum, but given at least some people pay a lot of money for really good sounding guitars, I thought I might find a kindred soul with more electrickery knowledge than me. Here's hoping.
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Last edited by PTChristopher; 08-26-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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OK, so much for this thread. Maybe I can find a place to get some help.
It's a perfectly valid technical question. But have fun kicking it around if it makes you feel good.
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Back in the day over a decade ago, my hifi rig cost about $25k. None of it was spent on capacitors or high end interconnects or whatever because I have an electronics background and knew, for example, that the variance in active components: tubes, transistors, etc. far outweighed the impact of the passive components like wire, resistors, capacitors, etc.
So hypothetically, if you were to spend $400 on one capacitor, then you'd better be willing to spend $4000 on one transistor or tube golden sample that was hand selected and matched with all the other $4000 transistors or tubes.
Secondly, in practice, its the transducers that have the greatest impact within a hifi system: mic's (in recording) and speakers. On a guitar, that's the strings, pickups, and body/neck/etc.
Thirdly, guitar electronics as opposed to hifi gear, is supposed to be lofi. From the pickups to the speakers, everything is designed to distort and color the signal.
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River you don't need to be upset - most replies just told you it has no significant effect. But maybe that's not the answer you're looking for...
I replaced the electronics on two cheap guitars I bought and in a vintage one who had degraded electronics. I put nice electronics without spending a ton of money and liked the result, basically better fidelity. I suppose if you already have nice electronics inside the guitar is pretty much useless to upgrade them.
I don't honestly think it's worth to spend a small fortune on guitar electronics. But I am not an electronics expert as others are here.
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Chris, heh, no offense and don't take it personally but that's a complete joke. I suggest you go hang out in DIYAudio or Audio Assylum and try that, let me know how long you last before you run with your tail between your legs. And I'm sure all guitars and all amps and all cords and all strings and all guitar players sound alike too. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
This is a perfectly valid question folks. I am baffled why it bothers you so much for me to ask it that you feel the need to attack me or the question. But it's fine to talk about $15K guitars with the implicit agreement that they are worth the price. I agree they are worth their price IMHO, as watching Monteleone's videos on youtube about building guitars conveys very poignantly.
But go ahead if it makes you feel better, I'm taking my capacitor and going home, you won't have me to kick around any more!!!
I really will have to ponder what about my question pricked the sensitivities of some of the denizens. Maybe I come from a hifi sensibility in which this is an obvious, first line question, and I transmogrified that thinking to this forum. Come to think of it, if I asked John and Mary if they would like me to put a $250 capacitor in their TV so it would sound better, I would receive a similar reception. I guess the electronics of sound quality is a value system that's not common outside the hifi community. Oh well....maybe Godot will have the answer....
Cheers,
Jim
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Franky, I guess all the hifi people who spend thousands for caps for their upgrades are all wrong then. Originally Posted by FrankyNoTone
And my hifi costs more than yours, so there.
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I didn't get that out of the replies, but fair enough. I guess I was hoping for a little more involved technical discussion from people who've tried it but no surprise nobody has. I guess I'll just have to try it and find out. I'm not sure what you mean by nice electronics but I suspect you aren't referring to what I am. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Anyway thanks for the response.
Jim
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Last edited by PTChristopher; 08-26-2012 at 11:56 PM.
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I'm sorry to insist, and I realise it's not the reply wanted, but (again, imho...) I genuinely believe that there's something wrong with a world where 'problems' like this have any priority over most others. To each his/her own, I suppose, but if there's nothing worse in one's life than this, one is doing fine. If, on the other hand, this is a real source of worry, I would recommend consultation.
Whether or not this is or is not a technical issue is, (imho...) irrelevant. I can quite easily appreciate the difference between a budget/midstream/high-end guitar, and understand (if not entirely approve...) most of the reasons for the price differences. Changing strings for different 'tones' is not quackery, p/up 'upgrades' have a tangible effect. I would not say that it has no effect, changing a cap, only that I do not hear any effect. I might add that I've spent many years in electronics, from aviation, through hi-end hifi (Cambridge Audio...), sound engineering and IT, and have retained some of the concepts pertaining to components. I am not tone deaf (at least, wasn't when younger...). I know snake oil when I encounter it, though. Other opinions are as valid as mine, and mine is as valid as any others.
If there are any toys left in your pram, feel free to toss them out too. You asked for opinions; I give you mine. High-cost caps are a waste of planets resources in this context; there are better things to do with such money, whether they 'work' or not. The difference, if any, is so negligeable as to be without common measure to the outlay. One may cite any number of 'proofs' to the contrary (although I've never met any such...), my own experience tells me this, and that's enough for me.Last edited by Dad3353; 08-26-2012 at 10:06 AM.
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By electronics I mean caps, pots and wire. I replaced all them in those three guitars... I did hear a difference from both old / cheap electronics to new / nice ones. Not sure if I would hear (specially live) the difference from good ones to fabulous ones but never tried it so... Originally Posted by river251
My father works in the hi-fi business for a long time now. Those discussions are endless - cables, electronics, power supplies.. I don't think they even enjoy the music (and tend to hear poorly played but very well recorded CDs)
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Yeah, I agree, some of the hifi people do seem to have lost their focus to me. But I think for the most part that they do spend a lot of time listening to some pretty good sounding music. I bought most of my current system 20 years ago and have been happy. Moving to a new environment forced purchase of some new speakers then I wasn't happy with the sound and decide to try a new amp or preamp to fix it. But I think I manage to spend a lot more time listening to music and practicing than fussing with hifi. I was about to design and build a single ended amp, but instead found an amp to buy, so did so in order that I could return all that time it would take to learn how to design an amp and build it, to studying jazz guitar playing, instead. If I can stay focused, I might be able to improvise over two, maybe even three different chords before I retire. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Do you remember what caps you put in your guitars?
JimLast edited by river251; 08-26-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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No, I'm saying that one isn't spending enough to be truly in the upper echelon of audiophiles if its just caps that are being upgraded. Originally Posted by river251
And like I said, my $25k on hifi gear didn't include any of that. So you better have spent much more than that on your gear if you're hangin' with that crowd. The minimum bar for speakers, for example, is $100k.
So for guitars, once you have taken care of the main components like the $15k guitar itself, then yes, its time to upgrade other stuff. So you'll have to show us what guitar you have in order to correctly select the right capacitor for tonal compatibility.
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The purchaser can consider his $100k investment in speakers as a donation to the speaker designer's children's college funds. Originally Posted by FrankyNoTone
If one spends that much on speakers, do they brag about them or keep them a deep dark secret?
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Yeah . . . I'm sure self serving political and/or geo-political statements like this one go a long way to help answer the OP's question about tone caps. It also goes a long way to (gently..?) demean those of us who may not be on quite the "save the world" mission that you are. Originally Posted by Dad3353
Step # 1 . . . . brain in motion
Step # 2 . . . . mouth in gear
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Hey riv, I need to update the site...
My main gits are a Hofner Verythin and a Heritage 575...neither needed any modifications to suit my needs.
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With you 100%. Someone buys a nice guitar and someone else comes along to tell them that they would have spent the money feeding third world children. Originally Posted by Patrick2
There's always something that one could have done without in order to help others. Taking it to extremes, you end up like Peter Singer, making people feel bad about sending their children to college or taking care of their parents in their old age.
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Your question, imho, is a very valid one since it addresses whether a $5 component is as good as a component made with "better" parts. Originally Posted by river251
Paper and oil capacitors have been the rave in better made quality audio preamplifier's for several decades. If you desire to learn more about them vs. the standard grade caps check in with the forum over at Audiogon.com or Audioasylum.com.
See the banks of rows of caps below.
You'll find many threads and users at either forum that have mega thousands in high end audio gear for the purposes of creating the best sound they can. Sound is better in the ear of the beholder and it doesn't hurt having a trained ear versed in high end audio gear to distinguish better gear from the rest.
I've owned a half dozen or so preamps over the past decade, the last 2 of which had PIO caps. The German Mundorf's, the black cap below, is world renowned among audiophiles.
My audio preamp is a $9k Balanced Audio Technology VK51SE. It uses Russian 6H30P Super tubes, which were exclusively designed to operate in Soviet Migs at one time. The tube was eventually imported to the US by Russian expatriate Victor Khomenko, part owner and primary designer of BAT. BAT had an exclusive on the 6H30P for the better part of 10 years, and the remainder of the audio tube gear kingdom couldn't wait to get their hands on it. And of course the afforementioned preamp operates custom Vishay paper in oil capacitors, not because they're expensive, but because they produce a level of performance that justifies their cost to the manufacturer and listener alike.
Victor, again BAT's primary designer, is quite the audiophile and you can pose any question you desire to him personally over at audio asylum...he posts there quite regularly.
If you're operating a guitar at loud volume levels I'm not so certain that same level of distinguished performance can be as easily determined. But any rate, you'll find an age old debate about the question of quality paper in oil caps and other higher grade electronic components in general at either forum.
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Generally, the bragging isn't vulgar but sometimes it garners a guest review in an esoteric newsletter (The Inner Ear was one that I occasional saw articles from but one which I never subscribed to). Or sometimes a high end magazine would feature an audiophile if their setup was particularly noteworthy. Originally Posted by Klatu
You can spend a lot more than $100k for speakers today but it was a little less extreme back when I was interested in this area. The key audiophile principle was the proportions in which various components impacted the sound and budgeting accordingly.
Secondly, there is the principle that everything must match harmoniously and effort should be taken to choose each individual component so that it doesn't create a sonic imbalance.
So audiophile principles dictate that a careful assessment of the whole audio chain be performed. Then each component must be chosen to fit within the allocated budget and with each other. To whit for the tone caps, and this is a narrower scope within the whole signal chain, the characteristics of the pickups, tone circuit, instrument cable and the preamp section of the guitar amp must be taken into consideration.
For me, my hifi budget was constrained by other interests so I had to stick with the basics and only read about the more esoteric aspects.
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Who knows why $100k was thrown about as a bar for loudspeakers for that amount is clearly not required to gain very very exceptional performance. Imho, loudspeakers costing much much less can rival the performance levels of far more expensive gear. It's a mistake in audio to throw money at a system to see what sticks...we've all done it, and after doing so one learns how not to do that for expense for the sake of expense won't guarantee a "better" result. It only guarantees you've spent more than the other guy. Originally Posted by Klatu
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I think what bothers people is most who buy the high ticket things aren't buying it to appreciate it, it just for bragging rights with others buy high ticket things. In fact having known a few like this I'd say they spend more time talking about their gear than actually using it. Originally Posted by Klatu
This goes for lots of things, but I use audio as an example since I've been working in it off and on since a kid, my last job was post-production editor and simple mastering. As I point out in another thread about high end guitar and speaker cables most people can't hear the difference, they want to so bad they convince themselves they do. When working at the recording studio outside engineers would come in and start putting our rare and expensive condensor mic's on guitar amps and similar gear. We stop them and they would claim they hear a difference, so we do blindfold tests with them using a SM57 and none could tell which was which. Same thing with other forms of audio gear most can't hear the subtle difference good gear and high ticket gear. Then age is a big factor and I noticed this a lot after getting back into audio on last job after being away for a few years. Most the old legends of recording and mastering have retired or more in consulting/endorsement side of business now. So talk to old friends and other engineers I was working with and same answer the ears are gone. I start reading up on it and our ear start losing range starting about the age 30 the extremes of our hears diminish year-by-year (and earbuds and high volume are helping accelerate that rate.) So another reason people don't really hear the differences they claim they do. So the audiophiles could of spent less, it would of sounded just as good, but they wouldn't have something to brag about to other audiophiles.
Also I think another factor that upsets many people those into all this high ticket stuff tend to forget how to appreciate the little things in life that are equally important. They also tend to be the people who complain the most and never satisfied with what they have or how their life is going. I remember an interview with the Dali Lama I watched on one point he made was the happiest people he sees are "poor" people. They work hard to make ends meet, they appreciate what they do have, and know how to enjoy each life listening to music, telling stories, dancing, the simple things in life.
So I don't say what people shouldn't buy high ticket stuff and instead give to charity. It would be nice if it wasn't mainly just to talk about, it would be nice see them get something they can use/hear and maybe do a little something for their fellow man. As the Bishop at church says... The only thing you take with you when you die is who you were as a person.
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River, you seem to be maintaining a relatively good sense of humor about all this. But obviously it is the wrong question for the wrong audience. I like this forum because these people are focused on their music and are not gear heads.
You'll notice they talk mostly about which guitar does what and not about what to do to a guitar to make it better.
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