Exposing the Myths of the Archtop by hot ford coupe

[bob dullam]

I too discovered only by experience, that a laminated archtop can sound just as good and in some cases, better than a carved spruce. I picked up a used eastman elray2, carved spruce top. fun to play, light, but the tone was nowhere as good and as full as my epiphone joe pass.

[rpguitar]

IMHO, I think the whole elitist carved archtop = jazz guitar better than anything else betrays some really interesting thoughts going on.

I don't think it's elitist, or that people who actually understand the different instruments well think that either. I do think, however, that there's a lot of simple ignorance about archtops - carved or otherwise - since, as you also point out:

The carved archtop is a niche instrument within the niche of jazz guitar within the niche of jazz.

Exactly. And the purely acoustic application of same is an absurdly tiny niche. However, many folks do play acoustically in the privacy of their own home for practice or enjoyment. So the application still has validity to many, despite the rarity of its display in public.

One of the reasons I started posting Youtube videos of acoustic archtops is because there were so few examples on the internet of what these guitars actually sound like in the hands of a person who plays them for what they are (not rock guitars, not flattops, not flatwound-strung electric archtops).

[mr. beaumont]

Again, I don't think it's a better/worse proposition (says the weirdo who plays a carved maple top instrument)

But you also can't expect one to do the other...how many posts do we see here about the guitar player who buys a carved top, X braced Eastman with a floating pickup and then asks "how can I get a dark, warm, jazz tone?"

Also interesting to me--if "dark and warm" is THE "jazz tone," (wtf is warm anyway?) then why do so many classic jazz tones sound bright and downright aggressive? Kenny Burrell? Wes' early stuff? Charlie Christian--ever hear those live cuts? Howard Roberts in the 60's?

[coolvinny]

A carved top guitar is definitely not just for cork-sniffing at home if it's properly conceived...but that's a big "if". Usually an archtop that works very well as an acoustic instrument will work not so well as an amplified instrument, due to feedback. A highly-resonant acoustic machine is going to feedback quite easily. Inverse relationship. So yes, feedback is a greater risk, but that doesn't mean these things are useless. As someone mentioned earlier, laminate archtops can also feedback - the threshold is just a [small/medium/large amount...depending on many factors] higher.

But if I had to have just one guitar, it would definitely be a laminate archtop...not carved. I do think they come closest to that classic jazz tone and they usually deal with feedback quite well.

[monk]

Also interesting to me--if "dark and warm" is THE "jazz tone," (wtf is warm anyway?) then why do so many classic jazz tones sound bright and downright aggressive? Kenny Burrell? Wes' early stuff? Charlie Christian--ever hear those live cuts? Howard Roberts in the 60's?

To which I would like to add that George Barnes, from the 1940s through the 1970s, always had a bright, clear tone that I find very appealing as a legitimate alternative to the "dark and warm" tone. More trumpet-like than sax-like.

[oldane]

Note how all those guys except Roberts played carved tops.

IMHO it has very little to do with carved/laminate and very much to do with amp settings. FWIW, Wes played laminated instrumens on some of those records where his is sound most bright (ES125 and 175).

[Jabberwocky]

Note how all those guys except Roberts played carved tops.

Howard Roberts did play carved top archtops. The Epiphone Howard Roberts Standard and Custom archtops made between 1964 and 1968 have carved spruce tops.

[fumblefingers]

IMHO, I think the whole elitist carved archtop = jazz guitar better than anything else betrays some really interesting thoughts going on.

Jazz's sociable societal roots and the use of standards facilitates group playing, with improvisation providing a sense of performance for the audience based around the knowledge and abilities of the performing musician, as opposed to the composer-centric musically scored orchestral music of historical Europe. The notion that an acoustic archtop guitar is the best instrument for a raucous riskee musical genre characterised by loud acoustic brass instruments rather ignores the historical need to amplify the guitar so it had parity of volume with the other performers. Having amplified the instrument, it then had to have the acoustic nature dampened down to prevent it from feeding back. This was achieved by thicker fronts, laminated fronts and semi or solid bodies. They were radically changed to overcome their inherent deficiencies for the popular music of the time. They developed into different instruments because they didn't perform as needed.

The carved archtop's stomping ground is within the sanitised, rarified, white version of jazz that is the solo chord melody type performance and in this role they excel. As guitarists we are exposed to this type of playing and accept it into the genre of jazz guitar but I am not sure non-guitarists would see it the same way and would probably categorise it more closely to classical guitar or an orchestral performance. The carved archtop is a niche instrument within the niche of jazz guitar within the niche of jazz.

What?

Charlie Christian played an ES-250, Wes Montgomery played an L5. Kenny Burrell played a Super 400, George Benson played a Johnny Smith.

Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall and Pat Metheny played ES-175s.

[rpguitar]

I believe that Chimera is referring to acoustic archtop solo chord melody playing, not just carved vs. laminate. Indeed that is a very niche music, one that many jazz fans haven't even heard.

One modern album of this music is Bucky Pizzarelli's "April Kisses."
Amazon.com: April Kisses: Music

[fumblefingers]

well that's simply not what he said.

[wintermoon]

Howard Roberts did play carved top archtops. The Epiphone Howard Roberts Standard and Custom archtops made between 1964 and 1968 have carved spruce tops.

true dat.
don't forget his modified 30s ES-150 as well

[Jabberwocky]

true dat.
don't forget his modified 30s ES-150 as well

Oh, yeah. Thanks for the reminder. Owned by Wolf Marshall now, I believe. HOWARD ROBERTS: "The Black Guitar"