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In trying to do some mythbusting for those new to jazz, an older more notorious thread wasn't able to clearly do the job. Since I want to be helpful to those new to jazz guitar, I decided to start a more cleaned up version which hopefully won't deteriorate into another boxing match.
Just some background on myself first. I started collecting archtop guitars 20 years ago and have made just about every mistake there is to be made when considering buying a particular archtop guitar for playing jazz. Since then, I have made a dramatic 180 degree turn and have quit collecting to focus more on playing my favorite kind of jazz on the instrument we all love. Why did I collect archtops specifically? In my opinion, (and this is just that, an opinion) I feel the archtop guitar is the best looking type of guitar there is. I love its history, its style, its players and the music they make. Again, only my opinion.
Now for the myth busting.
Myths-
1. An archtop is the only guitar suitable for jazz. We've hashed this one around elsewherenand we know how people feel "and that's all I have to say about that".
2. There's one specific thing called a jazz tone. This can't be true because of the myriad of jazz styles out there from the oldest styles to fusion and beyond. Each genre has its own sound and even then, nothing is written in stone.
3. If you buy the guitar that your hero plays, you won't sound or play like your hero and your choice of guitar will be a big disappointment.
I made this mistake many times over until it finally sunk in. I wouldn't sound or play like Johnny Smith with Johnny's guitar itself. The main reason why you should buy your hero's brand of guitar is for the connection to your hero. I once bought and ES 175CC with the Charlie Christian pickup (sounded fantastic anyhow) because it reminded me of 4 of my guitar heros i.e. Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis and Joe Pass and that was it. For me it was a good purchase.
4. There is a legendary sound in a particular guitar, a Holy Grail of sorts. Every time I bought a new guitar, I said to myself, "this is it. This is the one that will have the magic sound that will knock me off my feet and make life worth living. Then I would try it and think "Hmm, I must have bought a busted one. This sounds like everything else I have". I chased after this sound for almost 20 years to find out it never really existed. Even when I tried out a number of D'Angelico guitars, they still sounded just like archtops I've played before. They sounded great but not like I thought they would sound. That's what I get for reading all the hype and believing it.
5.You must spend an arm and a leg for a good playing archtop. This is a bit relative depending on your budget, but I'm talking about spending 8 to 12 grand for a good instrument. Check out some of the instruments recommended on this site like Ibanez, Peerless, Eastman. Some of the Ibanez guitars even go for around $600 USD. I've tried all 3 brands and was very surprised how good they were for the money. I'd recommend them to anyone. (BTW, I still sounded like me on all 3).
6. Only vintage is best. New guitars are junk. This is some information that was spread around by the vintage community to sell more vintage instruments. It's true that a guitar will get better with age but there are many, many new guitars out there that sound and play better than a lot of vintage instruments for a lot less money. I've owned Heritage guitars and they sounded as good as some of my old axes only newer. Now don't get me wrong. There are some fantastic vintage instruments that can do better than new guitars. Just be careful you know why you're buying one of them. See other myths.
7. Copies of vintage guitars are inferior to the real things. One of the first archtops I bought was an Ibanez L5CES copy. It sounded pretty good and played great but I had to have the real thing. When I finally got the real thing, I found out that the Ibanez guitar sounded just as good. The trouble was I sold the Ibanez to get that L5 plus a lot more cash. One of my big regrets. I never really like that L5. Moral of the story? Don't let the hype dictate a choice. If you love Wes and the guitar has an emotional connection, then a Gibson L5 Wes is a great choice. Otherwise, you really need to know what the guitars sound like and how they play before you choose which one you want.
These are all the experiences I can think of for now. They are all strictly opinions and by no means written in stone. Other players will have other preferences which may totally disagree with mine and that's fine. Hopefully, this will be of some help to someone out there. Let's keep it friendly Thanks for the air time.
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04-12-2011 05:11 PM
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HFC,
If I may add a few of my own?
I began luthiating in 1978. Built some, mostly repaired - including extensive major surgery on all types of guitars.
I have strayed into far more lucrative ventures over the decades, but always kept my hands on guitars for enduring customers. I am currently building two:
A flat top nylon string - sort of classical, but a narrower nut and some FB radius.
A small archtop. Carved spruce on a routed out mahog' body (inspired by the Collings CL Jazz and Gibbo Johnny A). It will have a full HB PU mounted to the back of the guitar, thus a sort of new way to get a fat HB w/o top mounting.
Now opinions:
1. There is far more variation within most technologies, than between one and another:
1a. Poly[urethane] and Nitro. Wood gains and loses moisture with both. Each finish can be dull and thick, each can be light and lively. Each can be too soft, each can be hard enough to cause unsightly checking. It is a mistake to draw any broad conclusion on a given guitar based on finish material.
1b. Carved vs. formed "solid" spruce. There are thin and lively pressed (and veneered) spruce tops, and there are dull logs carved from spruce. Thickness, bracing, grain density, grain runout, resin content, etc. all affect things more than how the wood got all wacky-arched.
1c. Laminated maple vs. Spruce. There are thin, responsive, great hardwood laminated tops. There are dull thud-ish laminated spruce tops. And vice-versa.
1d., 1e., 1f,.... Add in your favorite "tastes great - less filling" web gasbag debate here. They pretty much all have more exceptions than anything else. (SS vs. Tube, T-O-M vs. wooden bridge, Ebony vs. Rosewood FB,...)
2. My opinion is that repeatedly,,,,, hitting,,, commas is a,,, sign of emotional need and imbalance,,,,,,,,,, - but hitting three periods is perfectly fine. Discuss,...
3. The weight of a neck and headstock is a remarkably ignored factor in many guitars. I loves me some mahog' neck and lightweight tuners on a smaller guitar - nice and woody sound when you might not expect it.
4. Setup is beyond critical. I used to be faced with making Hondo II guitars usable; it can be done. We were also a Gibbo dealer in the Norlin nadir. So it was a tossup between Hondo II's and Gibsons for which was a bigger warranty burden. There are few guitars that can not be made to play superbly. Be careful in judging a guitar unless you consider just how much can be tweaked. A major setup can run a good $200. This is a bargain in my opinion (which is prejudiced,... - I mean ",,,,,,,,,,,"). Take an $800 guitar and a great setup and you'll be ready to play anywhere and sound your absolute best.
OK, that's a decent-ish nearly-useful post I guess.Last edited by NiAg; 04-12-2011 at 09:12 PM. Reason: spelling, clarity,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Many thanks for all of the VERY helpful thoughts/insight/information.
I am just starting to learn how to play jazz and I have several guitars (none are expensive). The jazz tone that I enjoy most is from my Ibanez AK95 with flatwounds. My Greco 335 MIJ copy also does a reasonable job IMHO, as does my Hiway 1 Tele.
As I am new to playing jazz, I get a huge thrill just hearing the colour and complexity of the various jazz chords I am learning. I'm basically a happy jazz newbie.
Not wishing to derail this thread in any way, but my frustration is finding an amp... I keep reading other threads on this topic and searching. The amp I am using is an old orange Cube 60 that was abused and is hurting.
Cheers
Dave
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Thanks for all that great info, NiAg. It's extremely useful info especially coming from a luthier that handles the wood "from the insides". There are a lot of factors I didn't know about. It's just amazing how many variables go into making an archtop. It's definitely an art.
Hey Dave. I'm glad this thread is helping you out. The AK95 was one of the Ibanez guitars I tried out and I really liked it. When I played it in the store, I played it through a Fender Deluxe amp. The tone was just incredible. Even the store manager was surprised how good the guitar sounded. There's a lot of bang for the buck there. Plus, it's a good looking guitar too.
You mention amps. Let me tell you, there are tons of myths out there when it comes to amps also. Tube vs SS, Fender vs Ampeg. I've tried a whole bunch of them and the ones I like the best for jazz (in no particular order) are the Fender Vibrosonic, the recent Ampeg Reverberocket reissue which they don't make anymore, the Fender Twin reissue and a Kustom 12 guage solid state amp which cost me $125 clams and weighs about 23 pounds. I couldn't lift the others anymore because of my disability and that little amp does an incredible job. THe best thing to do about amps is take your guitar to the store and try a bunch of them out that are within your budget. Really give them a good workout and then make your choice based on the sound you like the best as well as the construction. Personally, I like the bigger Fenders. They's heavy and expensive but nice.Last edited by hot ford coupe; 04-12-2011 at 06:25 PM.
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Well done, thanks !
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WOW...I didn't think that a guitar as "basic" as an Ibanez AK95 would actually impress anyone...especially when I read about the fantastic guitars others have (in this forum).
Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
Many thanks for the information regarding amps. Weight is somewhat important to me also, just due to my aging and the desire for "convenience". I'm sorry to read that you have a disability that results in restricting your lifting and, hence, your choices of amps that you might enjoy having.
Cheers
Dave
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>>> all that great info, NiAg
That was opinion rather than info. In my opinion.
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Exactly. Originally Posted by NiAg
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Not really a myth, but I think it fits in this thread. I'm not going to mention how many archtops I burned through looking for "the" sound. Then I tried changing my picking position, and got it. Facepalm.
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>>>>>>I started collecting archtop guitars 20 years ago and have made just about every mistake there is to be made when considering buying a particular archtop guitar for playing jazz.<<<<<
When I read that, in Coupe's opening post, I thought of physicist Neils Bohr's quip about experts. He said, "An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." This wasn't a criticism but a sound description. I think he was right. Coupe sounds like an expert to me. (There are other experts too, and some may disagree with him. Heck, it's all but guaranteed that anything one expert says another expert in that field will call nonsense. As Kurt Vonnegut liked to say, "So it goes.")
I've never had much money, so I've never had many guitars. The best guitar I ever owned was an old Ovation Deluxe Balladeer that my dad took in trade on a station wagon when he was selling used cars in Nashville. (I was 12.) He gave it to me. Neither of us knew the value of that instrument at the time. (It had a hairline crack in the body, which I'm suspect the previous owner knew about and thought he was getting good value for damaged goods but I had that guitar for a decade and the crack never worsened. That guitar was a gem. Unfortunately, someone stole it from me or I'd have it to this day.)
I sometimes think it would be nice to have a Great Jazz Guitar. Since I like Herb Ellis, his signature model Gibson appeals to me. But I probably never will and that doesn't bother me. Though it's possible I still have an Epiphone DOT floating around New Orleans, I see myself as a one-guitar guy. If I spend the rest of my days playing nothing better than my Ibanez AF85-VLS, that'll be fine by me.
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I made another mistake I just remembered. I originally got into guitar collecting because it was supposed to be a good investment. It wasn't bad when you sold something but it takes forever to sell one instrument especially in this economy. You don't make the killing either. I once sold a D'Angelico Style A-1. It took me 4 years to sell that thing and I lost a bunch of cash on top of that. Last year, the same guitar showed back up in Gruhn Guitars where I sold it in the first place. It sold in 3 months at $1000 bucks less than I got for it. Good news for buyers. The prices are coming down but make sure you're buying the instrument to hold onto ---- forever.
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Nurse Ratched!
Escapee,,,, in,, the,,,,, thread,,,,,,,
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Now if you had just posted, "Mmmmm, Juicy-Fruit,,,,,,", that would have been promising. Too bad.
Or maybe broken a pick in half and said, "I'll bet a nickel."
See, the troll thing works only if you mix in some genuine humor.
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>>> Good chance to show some pics, or make a wish!!
Yep. I've definitely got a wish,...
OK, back to earth, or at least low orbit.
[Greco/Dave]>>> didn't think that a guitar as "basic" as an Ibanez AK95 would actually impress anyone
It has all the elements that work for many players. Hard to find any reason why it can't be a player's main axe.
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It comes out of the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Good movie. Originally Posted by Posativek
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Why do you feel the need to ruin this thread too? It's not about you! Originally Posted by Posativek
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I think it's fine to have a variety of guitars for various purposes, there is no real MUSICAL reason to have an army of guitars and amps.
I've spent the last few years paring down to a few essential guitars, and tomorrow I'm driving up to Wisco to hopefully sell-trade the last two unwanted-unused guitars.
Recently I saw an ad on the Gear Page advertising two DeArmond X-155s, which are nice guitars for the money. I thought about answering it, then quickly regained my senses--how in the world will it be better than what I already have? I'd never use them! (man, there are some strange cats over there, who obsess about RO, R9, R8, R7, R6--I only recently learned what that means
)
I've stopped looking at the local CL. You should be happy with what you have, and just get on with the important stuff--the music.
That said, I'd still like to add a 7 string!
But at least theres a really valid musical reason for it, as opposed to GAS--to really play music pianistically on the guitar, to actually play music as it may be written, with ideal separation between the bass and trebble parts (as Johnny Smith pointed out in his method book, the guitar covers both the bass and treble clefs)
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Here's my Andy Rooney list.
- Tonewoods
- Tap tuned
- Solid tops vs plywood tops
- hand carved vs cnc carved
- $250 pickups
- semihollow sounds like an archtop
- you need an archtop to play jazz
- boutique picks
- Handmade strings
- Graphite Rods in necks
- 24 fret necks
- roller bridges
- Heritage tailpieces
- guys on message forums who pontificate for hours on jazz theory but struggle to play a jazz standard
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>
1. An archtop is the only guitar suitable for jazz.<
And its corollary, archtops can't be used for anything other than jazz.
Brad
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Good one, Brad.
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LMAO!! Originally Posted by jzucker
Good thread by the way, and very good points!
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04-13-2011, 01:31 PM #22Archie Guest
My teacher plays an old Ibanez archtop, and sounds like John Scofield. I have a Gibson ES135, and sound like Tom Fogarty. When my teacher plays my guitar, guess what? He sounds like John Scofield.
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This kind of reminds me of the days before the interwebs, when people would talk about Mike Bloomfields killer 'Burst tone on the Butterfield albums. Bloomfield played a tele on the first one, and a p-90'd Goldtop on the second one. He didn't have the Burst when recording with Butterfield...but people sure imagined they heard it. Why? Because Bloomfield sounds like Bloomfield. Originally Posted by Archie
My teacher plays an old Ibanez archtop, and sounds like John Scofield. I have a Gibson ES135, and sound like Tom Fogarty. When my teacher plays my guitar, guess what? He sounds like John Scofield.
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As we say in Tennessee, I love Mike Bloomfield like he was kinfolk.
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Yeah, Bloomfield was special. Originally Posted by monk
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