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Hot Ford,
Good thread, well presented. I particularly liked your comments regarding vintage instruments. While there are definitely improvements that age can make on a guitar, such as wood drying, resins crystalising, finishes hardening, etc. that make them desirable to a player today, most of the good old guitars started out as good new guitars.
People tend to forget that when Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt, George Van Eps and others were gigging and recording that they were playing new instruments. Many interviews with musicians of the 20s, 30s and 40s make mention of how desirable new guitars were and how proud most musicians were on the day they acquired that new Gibson, Epiphone, Stromberg or D'Angelico. A new guitar in 1938 was as much a status symbol as a vintage guitar is in 2011.
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04-13-2011 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by monk
+1. I think this statement is the single most overlooked element in the vintage guitar market. While looking around for my last guitar purchase I played quite a few vintage guitars and was pretty dumbfounded that people seemed to think that a 40 year old lump of coal had a right to turn into a diamond because it was it's birthday.
I have, however, bought into the possible myth that age seems to have a more noticable (generally positive) effect on guitars, and particularly on hollowbodies. Increased resonance, more vibrations, snake oil and good old fashioned mojo, whatever. I'm quite prepared to admit that this is as much down to my gullibility as my ears, though
!
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Just to post a counter to the myth about older guitars...I have experienced several cases where the older guitars indeed do sound better. I think it has less to do with wood drying out and more to do with construction techniques.
- As time went on, Gibson beefed up the bracing and thickness of their tops. This is true of the L5 and the 175. It turns out that with the thinner tops, they had warranty issues where the pickup weight would occasionally cause the top to sink. So, they solved the problem by making the tops thicker and the bracing sturdier.
- Then, there is the glue. Hide glue was used in the older instruments and definitely made the guitars sound different. Particularly the plywood tops.
- Then there's the pickups. The degaussed P90 and Charlie Christian pickups just had a tone that can't be beat using modern humbucking technology. Try as they might, no pickup manufacturer has made a humbucking pickup that sounds as sweet as those two pickups.
- Then there is the wood. Modern factory construction and wood pricing demands finding cheaper and cheaper sources for newer and newer wood. Instead of using 100 year old wood, it's common for manufacturers to buy newer wood and kiln-dry it. The kiln dried wood is problematic in many ways. Not as stable. Many companies combat this by reinforcing the neck with graphite rods. That results in sympathetic resonances that produce ring modulation type effects on certain notes.
- Modern truss rods are different too. Technically better in many ways but many of them require more wood to be routed out and some of them have more mass. More metal mass == less wood mass.
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I too have become more sceptical with the years and have come to realize that one should dig beyond the seemingly obvious.
I have a very expensive archtop which one of the top luthiers made for me 15 years ago. Guess what? It isn't my best sounding guitar. And I never got on friendly terms with the amplified sound from its floating PU.
I have a real low down cheapo, a 50 years old acoustic Gretsch New Yorker, which is ugly as the devil, has sloppy cosmetic finish, and - for the final touch - has a pressed plywood top. Guess what? It actually sounds and plays good. And despite the ususal reputation of Gretsches from that age, it is still in one piece and the neck is in good shape.
I have a solid body in Strat shape, which I put together for a moderate cost from Warmoth parts with a single Vintage Vibe CC pickup. Guess what? It's the best sounding electric guitar I have. In addition it's very rugged and very comfortable to hold.
And I have a Triggs Master 400 (Stromberg copy to a degree), which was not exactly cheap, but neither very expensive as the first one I mentioned. It is great sounding for acoustic rhythm work and looks like a million $$.
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Great points here, JZ, Originally Posted by jzucker
1. I've noticed that many vintage guitars are lighter in weight. My experience is more with acoustic archtops than electrics. But this also holds true for flat-tops and solid bodies. Most of the 50s era LPs and Teles I've played were noticeably lighter than modern models. Ditto pre-war Martins.
2. Dan Erlewine says that hide glue dries harder than aliphatic resin glue which dries soft and can dampen sound.
3. 1+
4. My granddad worked for a lumber company and always said wood should be air dried for as long as possible.
5. No comment. You know more about this than I do.
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Hey monk. You make a great point about guitars back then being new good guitars. A lot of folks have the feeling that things were made better in the good old days and that today nobody has good work ethincs anymore. That itself is a myth in it's own right. I'm sure there were just as many bad workers way back when as there are today and I'm sure there are many great workers today as there were back when. In many cases, it came down to who was working where at what time.
Hey jzucker. Brilliant points. You're 100 % right there. When a number of mods are made to correct problems whether real or just perceived, the guitars sounds change. It makes a ton of sense.
In my case, I prefer the vintage guitars unless there's no way to get the desired instrument except a reissued copy. Here's why I like the vintage ones better. I'm a bit of an antique collector. I don't really believe that the older products are any better than new ones but it's what the antiques represent to me. Since I only have two vintage guitars left out of a collection that used to be in excess of 30, (both of them are from the 1930's) when I play them, it's the history the guitars represent. In my mind, I can picture the famous big bands, the great dance halls, the makers like Epi Stathopolou, Elmer Stromberg, and of course John D'Angeico, the great musicians of the era, the old nightclubs and hotel ballrooms where the guitars would be played, and on and on. Since I was a kid in the 1950's and lived in New York City, there wasn't much new construction going on and most of the buildings built in the 30's were still there and in use. I remember how they looked with their art deco styling and it made a huge impression on me. When I look at some of the vintage instruments, D'Angelicos and Epiphones in particular, I can see that old styling in them and it brings back a lot of great memories I had when my folks took me all around Manhattan. Since I'm a history buff, they also spark visions of what life was like back in those days, i.e. the old cars, the clothes, WWII, the development of jazz, the Depression (I never said they were all happy visions) and the way things were back in NYC. That's it. That's why I went and bought a Vestax D'A New Yorker. I definitely know it's not a real D'A and I never, ever expect it to sound like the real thing. It's the looks that does it for me. Seven years ago, I bought myself a refinished and refretted 1939 D'A Excel which I play all the time. Is it a great investment? No, I have no plans to sell it. Is it a collector's piece? Hell no but it's got the vibe and fills the requirements in spades. It's simply a matter of preference and many different motives.
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@hot ford coupe,
That's the first honest justification for this vintage mania that I have seen.
Thank you.
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You're welcome. That was the main reason I went into collecting in the first place. My first vintage axe was a 47 L7. I had no idea what sound that L7 was supposed to have. It wasn't magical nor was it legendary. It didn't even sound like what I expected but WWII had just ended, the Depression was over and the country had recovered. The baby boom was in full swing and film noir detective movies were in full swing. Vegas wasn't too far in the future and the world of progress was about to fling it's doors open and make its way into the space age. I paid $1100 clams for that thing and it was worth every penny I spent. Thecollection then started to grow. I was also in search of the Lost Ark of sound but I never found it. Now that I know what an archtop is supposed to sound like, I could have stuck with that L7 and saved a lot of cash. I still had a lot of historic pieces though. Therefore, Originally Posted by RonD
cost of a 47 Gibson L7-- $1100 bucks
cost of a 47 L5 - $5300 bucks
cost of a 1943 Epiphone Emperor-- $3500 bucks
cost of a 39 D'Angelico Excel -- more than I care to admit
cost for being able to reach out and actually touch history right in its face--PRICELESS !
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"cost for being able to reach out and actually touch history right in its face--PRICELESS !"
LOL! Well said!
"It wasn't magical nor was it legendary. It didn't even sound like what I expected but WWII had just ended, the Depression was over and the country had recovered. The baby boom was in full swing and film noir detective movies were in full swing. Vegas wasn't too far in the future and the world of progress was about to fling it's doors open and make its way into the space age. I paid $1100 clams for that thing and it was worth every penny I spent. Thecollection then started to grow. I was also in search of the Lost Ark of sound but I never found it. Now that I know what an archtop is supposed to sound like, I could have stuck with that L7 and saved a lot of cash. I still had a lot of historic pieces though."
You should write a book... I'd buy it!
Cheers, Ron
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Thanks Ron. I think I'll title the book "How To Pee Away Your Kids' Inheritance and Enjoy Every Minute".
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You can do that with guitars too? Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
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Hey David. Is there any other valid way? Maybe I should have entitled the book "Confessions of a Spruceaholic" or "For Whom the Archtop Tolls".
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Not familiar with Andy Rooney over here; so, for the benefit of those on this side of the pond, here's a Wayne Rooney list: Originally Posted by jzucker
- F******* pickups
- F******* strings
- F*** guitars anyway, they're all sh*te
- F****** lists, they're dead borin'
- Who you looking at, pal? D'yer wanna wake up with a crowd around yer?
(For the benefit of our transatlantic cousins, Wayne Rooney is an English footballer famed for foul-mouthed tirades, associations with superannuated streetwalkers and being the subject of constant but massive media attention. In his own way, a cultural icon for our times
).
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Nice posts, all of them. Provides considerable insight for me, particularly in debating 20-something know-it-alls in guitar shops that try to make me feel silly for not spending $10K on a guitar, but then tell me I got ripped off if I did.
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Tis was A good one Originally Posted by mangotango
Not familiar with Andy Rooney over here; so, for the benefit of those on this side of the pond, here's a Wayne Rooney list:
- F******* pickups
- F******* strings
- F*** guitars anyway, they're all sh*te
- F****** lists, they're dead borin'
- Who you looking at, pal? D'yer wanna wake up with a crowd around yer?
(For the benefit of our transatlantic cousins, Wayne Rooney is an English footballer famed for foul-mouthed tirades, associations with superannuated streetwalkers and being the subject of constant but massive media attention. In his own way, a cultural icon for our times ).
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I must disagree in part with the "carved vs. laminated" issue, specially when we're talking about spruce.
Solid spruce tops (not laminated), whether carved or flat, as in classical guitars, improves its tone over time, and that doesn't happens with laminated tops. Sure, they can sound as good as a carved one when the two are new (I played a Peerless Manhattan with laminate spruce top few days ago and it sounded great), but over time the solid top becomes superior (given that's being played regularly and properly strung).
I don't pretend to offend anyone, but that has been my experience with guitars.
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Originally Posted by Archie
My teacher plays an old Ibanez archtop, and sounds like John Scofield. I have a Gibson ES135, and sound like Tom Fogarty. When my teacher plays my guitar, guess what? He sounds like John Scofield.
maybe you should do a creedence tribute, jazz style.
way off topic, but on the show parks and recreation, one of the characters is in a rock band, plays at a senior's home, and does the standards, rock style. funny, but it worked.Last edited by markf; 06-05-2011 at 01:02 PM.
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This mirrors my understanding about the reason (at least the main reason) that vintage guitars can be better - it basically boils down to better materials and better construction techniques. Of course this doesn't apply to all vintage guitars, but the best of them have some qualities that are simply not available, or less available, today. Originally Posted by jzucker
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This is a great thread! Thanks to HFC and NiAg and all who contributed. My experience is similar. I got my first guitar in '63. My wife and I both play so between us we have a number of guitars, some of which are now fairly valuable. We play them all, some more often than others, but the one I grab most often is the cheapest of the bunch. Why? I love the neck, the neck and the neck. It fits me, the action is perfect and the pickup was swapped out for something I chose. It plays good, sounds good and feels good... the rest is up to me.
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Great thread indeed! I'd like to add two thoughts:
Why should it be a mistake to buy more guitars than one really needs, experiment with them, play and enjoy them, learn to judge what's important to yourself, finally sell those that didn't quite have the magic and keep the ones you really bonded with? Second to the music, for me that's just what it's all about. Of course it's all a matter of what you can afford but doing this in line with your budget, it's the greatest hobby I can think of. I consider no guitar that I have bought a mistake, even if I sold it again and even if I have lost some cash doing so. It has always been a pleasant experience, no regrets whatsoever. You don't need two guitars to play a tune but it's fun to be able to choose and you'll be wiser afterwards. And even if you keep some just forthe sake of collecting, I can think of much more senseless and boring items to collect.
Second thing is, in the beginning of this thread it all sounds like if you want to play Jazz, get the guitar you like and learn how to play. Don't bother about other guitars, because you will sound about the same on any guitar you play. Well, I don't agree. Even if I only consider archtops.
I own two hollow body archtops at the moment, an Ibanez AK105 and a Guild X-170. Both are of similar construction, at least they're both laminated and have two mounted pickups. Still, the difference between those guitars couldn't be bigger. The comparison might be far fetched but you will understand what I mean if I say that they're like child and adult in every way, size, feel and sound. They're worlds apart. The Ibanez is still a nice instrument, I've put a Lollar CC in the neck position and it's a real joy to play. But whenever I grab the Guild I get the feeling that this is the real thing and the tone just blows me away. An audience might not care so much but I do myself.
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This thread deserves a sticky!
Where's HFC?
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I don't doubt that in many ways the large guitar manufacturers built better instruments a long time ago, but there are way more independent luthiers these days and I think they address many of the issues people have with modern large manufacturers.
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ALWAYS listen with your ears when judging guitars, not with your eyes. As a teenager, I thought that only archtops, semi-acoustics and Les Pauls were "real" guitars. (Late 60s) Anyway, I ended up playing my first plain Jane Telecaster. It was a refin...back then. Didn't look like much. Hoot mon! It sounded like...well, like anything and everything. That guitar was an eye opener. Leo Fender took some wood, a bandsaw, and some wood screws and surprised everyone. That guitar set the guitar world on its ear.
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I think I'm going to restrict my contributions to this thread to a single thought: something which sounds
"different" does not mean it sounds better or worse. That is a function exclusively of how well a guitar achieves what's in your head.
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Your comments about the Guild mirror my experience. I heard one played at a jazz club meet and when the player finished and did a "by the way its for sale" I wanted it because it sounded fantastic. Bought it and sold it. The neck was too narrow at the nut. Originally Posted by Drifter
I've inadvertently ended up playing jazz on a maple board telecaster. It comes alive in my hands. It has seen off "better jazz guitars". Solid body, long scale, maple board, originally single coil but I recently had a Stormy Monday put in, wrong on every level. I dearly wish it was chambered, hollow or really being honest, an archtop but it isn't. Somewhere along the line I have absorbed the notion that you're not a " proper" jazz guitarist unless you are knocking out some degree of acoustic tone. Strangely, I can't decide if the pressure I feel comes from within or externally. Similarly when I play my tele I can't decide if I play it or if it plays me. I lose track of time when I play it. I presumed it was telecasters so I bought a chambered tele but even though they both have had a fret stoning and setup by the same excellent luthier at the same time the guitars aren't the same. Number 2 is up for sale because no matter how I try, "it" never happens. All this brings me on to two points.
1) Don't choose your perfect guitar. If you have a guitar you enjoy then take it with you to the store and play it back to back with the guitar you are trying out. If the new muse doesn't do something special in your hands then don't buy it. It doesn't mean that model isn't for you, you might play another example and feel completely different.
2) Don't constrain your consideration of guitar models. There is no perfect spec for any genre of guitar. Pick your guitar, let it pick you but never pick it because you feel any other guitar choice would undermine your credibility.
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