Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

[softjazz]

Jazz belong to the soul and your core heart... it's not made for everyone. You realize at the end of the day that not everyone has a great taste.

[ChazFromCali]

Most jazz artists are not photogenic enough to be sold to the music consuming public, in large quantities.

The people who buy jazz are.... the people who buy jazz. A limited audience. To go over that line a bit - into wider public acceptance is a combination of several factors:

1. Savvy marketing,
2. an easily swallow-able product for the mythical average person. (i.e. Ornette was never going to sell a lot of Lp's)
3. Good looks, good hair, good smile, good extrovert personality,
4. sex appeal
5. dumb luck / good timing.....

As you know quality or integrity has little to do with anything in America. Especially the music biz.


* I think my above statement applies pretty well to conditions as they exist in 2022.

[wintermoon]

Most jazz artists are not photogenic enough to be sold to the music consuming public, in large quantities.

The people who buy jazz are.... the people who buy jazz. A limited audience. To go over that line a bit - into wider public acceptance is a combination several factors:

1. Savvy marketing,
2. an easily swallow-able product for the mythical average person. (i.e. Ornette was never going to sell a lot of Lp's)
3. Good looks, good hair, good smile, good extrovert personality,
4. sex appeal
5. dumb luck / good timing.....

As you know "quality' or integrity has little to do with anything in America. Especially the music biz.

= Diana Krall

[ChazFromCali]

= Diana Krall

see the first word of my post.

[ragman1]

Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

Why should it be?

[wintermoon]

see the first word of my post.

Wasn't correcting you, just stating the obvious.

[ChazFromCali]

Wasn't correcting you, just stating the obvious.

I thought about mentioning her as an exception.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've re-thought it.

I think the fundamental reason it isn't more popular is that it only makes a relatively small percentage of people feel good listening to it.

Sure, there are those that do. And there are more, apparently, who don't.

When it all had a swing beat and was danceable it was more popular. Then it became less visceral (to most, not all) and thence less popular. This may not apply to the very top players.

I recall an argument about whether country music or jazz had more emotional content. I'd say that country has more immediate emotional content for a larger number of people. The lyrics help.

[Litterick]

That well-known critic, Quora Contributor, says jazz was replaced by hip-hop:

By the time hip-hop arrives, jazz is fatally old: It’s something one’s parents listened to. And now there is a new means by which youth can indicate that they are different from their mothers and fathers and white culture in general, a controversial genre that provides them with some of the racial and class exoticism many seem to seek. Moreover, it has lyrics, and lyrics are always preferable to instrumental music for the masses for perfectly sensible reasons (they understand words, know how to form and use them; they do not have this facility with saxophones or pianos).

I am sticking with respectability as a cause: as soon as jazz was taught in music schools and performed in arts centres, it could no longer be a popular music form. Jazz at the Philharmonic was the beginning of the end.

[ragman1]

By the time hip-hop arrives, jazz is fatally old: It’s something one’s parents listened to. .

What they mean is that young people weren't the least bit interested in those boring old songs by Frank Sinatra and Julie London. It puts them to sleep. They want the latest groovy sounds and it ain't what their parents call jazz.

These days, that's changed. 'Jazz' now encompasses far more than outdated easy listening and has done for some time. There are plenty of young people who love it and want to play it. And do play it.

[James W]

That well-known critic, Quora Contributor, says jazz was replaced by hip-hop:

By the time hip-hop arrives, jazz is fatally old: It’s something one’s parents listened to. And now there is a new means by which youth can indicate that they are different from their mothers and fathers and white culture in general, a controversial genre that provides them with some of the racial and class exoticism many seem to seek. Moreover, it has lyrics, and lyrics are always preferable to instrumental music for the masses for perfectly sensible reasons (they understand words, know how to form and use them; they do not have this facility with saxophones or pianos).

I am sticking with respectability as a cause: as soon as jazz was taught in music schools and performed in arts centres, it could no longer be a popular music form. Jazz at the Philharmonic was the beginning of the end.

I believe there's a mandatory first year module on Hip-Hop in the Oxford University music course.

[Litterick]

I believe there's a mandatory first year module on Hip-Hop in the Oxford University music course.

Global hip hop is one of the courses available in the first year. Students must take six courses; hip hop is one of the options.

[EastwoodMike]

= Diana Krall

= Nora Jones
= Harry Connick jr
= Jamiroquai
= Michael Buble
= Madeleine Peyroux

yeah not all strictly old school Jazz or swing and even less bebob. All though heavily influenced with progressions sounds and voicings associated with jazz. No argument about the album sales though. Even when some only had a few key songs.

I don’t think that just because a form of music heads into learning institutions it dies- Classical music is still very popular centuries after the music was composed. What you may see is the popularity of music styles plateaus and to what level may be a mix of cultural and geographical.

[Litterick]

What they mean is that young people weren't the least bit interested in those boring old songs by Frank Sinatra and Julie London. It puts them to sleep. They want the latest groovy sounds and it ain't what their parents call jazz.

These days, that's changed. 'Jazz' now encompasses far more than outdated easy listening and has done for some time. There are plenty of young people who love it and want to play it. And do play it.

Frank and Julie were not in the running by the time hip hop appeared: jazz had lost most of its young audience twenty years earlier, when r'n'b gave them danceable songs. It was disco that was replaced by hip hop.

Some young people play jazz, mostly jazz students. Jazz has not had a mass audience since the fifties, and that is not surprising: young people do not cling to the musical tastes of their parents, or even their older siblings. They move on, and find their own music.

[ChazFromCali]

That well-known critic, Quora Contributor, says jazz was replaced by hip-hop:

By the time hip-hop arrives, jazz is fatally old: It’s something one’s parents listened to. And now there is a new means by which youth can indicate that they are different from their mothers and fathers and white culture in general, a controversial genre that provides them with some of the racial and class exoticism many seem to seek. Moreover, it has lyrics, and lyrics are always preferable to instrumental music for the masses for perfectly sensible reasons (they understand words, know how to form and use them; they do not have this facility with saxophones or pianos).

I am sticking with respectability as a cause: as soon as jazz was taught in music schools and performed in arts centres, it could no longer be a popular music form. Jazz at the Philharmonic was the beginning of the end.

It goes back farther than that. As I mentioned before - when jazz was dance music (swing) it was Pop music. After Bebop came in it ceased to be dance music and was no longer Pop music. It became intellectual.

[henryrobinett]

All true but I couldn’t care less. Jazz fans are snobs. They don’t want it to be popular. If it’s popular it’ll get cheesy. Popularity cheapens. Sure I’d like to make a living at it but I’m no kid. I have zero desire to appeal to the hip hop crowd or other super popular styles. Jazz is art. Art is never popular. And when it becomes popular it becomes “pop art” and goes stupid. And jazz fans will turn on you quicker than you can spit. Kenny G. Even Herbie and Benson had their big time detractors when they were most popular. It took real courage to do what they did.


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[ccroft]

There's truth in what Henry says.

[Litterick]

I think it

It goes back farther than that. As I mentioned before - when jazz was dance music (swing) it was Pop music. After Bebop came in it ceased to be dance music and was no longer Pop music. It became intellectual.

But it weren't bop what done swing in. Bop and swing could happily co-exist, with musicians from the big bands playing in combos after work. But the kids stopped going to the dancehalls. They had radio and record players. They hung out at the drive-in. They had their own music. The big bands closed down in the fifties, except for a few big names: Basie, Ellington, Herman, Kenton, et al.

What happened at Minton's was as much a response to changing tastes as it was an attempt to make jazz an art form. The combos could survive in a wasteland of dead dance bands. Four or five musicians could make a living playing together in night clubs and steakhouses. Their audience was older and smarter but smaller.

[ragman1]

Frank and Julie were not in the running by the time hip hop appeared: jazz had lost most of its young audience twenty years earlier, when r'n'b gave them danceable songs. It was disco that was replaced by hip hop.

Some young people play jazz, mostly jazz students. Jazz has not had a mass audience since the fifties, and that is not surprising: young people do not cling to the musical tastes of their parents, or even their older siblings. They move on, and find their own music.

Why has this thread run to 26 pages? Can you answer that? Jazz is obviously not wonderfully popular because not everybody likes it, they prefer other types of music. So what? What's wrong with that? What's the big deal? At least it exists!

Why isn't underwater hockey more popular? My god, we don't know what we're missing!

[ChazFromCali]

But it weren't bop what done swing in. Bop and swing could happily co-exist, with musicians from the big bands playing in combos after work. But the kids stopped going to the dancehalls. They had radio and record players. They hung out at the drive-in. They had their own music. The big bands closed down in the fifties, except for a few big names: Basie, Ellington, Herman, Kenton, et al.

What happened at Minton's was as much a response to changing tastes as it was an attempt to make jazz an art form. The combos could survive in a wasteland of dead dance bands. Four or five musicians could make a living playing together in night clubs and steakhouses. Their audience was older and smarter but smaller.

It was never easy, even in the 30's, but as time went by (40's, 50's, 60's) keeping a big band together on the road and working was a major feat as well.

[jersey]

[Litterick]

It was never easy, even in the 30's, but as time went by (40's, 50's, 60's) keeping a big band together on the road and working was a major feat as well.

It was so much easier in the movies: John Hammond and his sister Alice invite Benny Goodman to their stately home to perform Mozart's Clarinet Concerto. Benny gets the gig and he gets Alice. Benny's mother objects ("Bagels and caviar don't mix") but Alice charms her. Benny finds Gene Krupa, Teddy Wilson and Lionel Hampton and they play Carnegie Hall.

[kris]

All true but I couldn’t care less. Jazz fans are snobs. They don’t want it to be popular. If it’s popular it’ll get cheesy. Popularity cheapens. Sure I’d like to make a living at it but I’m no kid. I have zero desire to appeal to the hip hop crowd or other super popular styles. Jazz is art. Art is never popular. And when it becomes popular it becomes “pop art” and goes stupid. And jazz fans will turn on you quicker than you can spit. Kenny G. Even Herbie and Benson had their big time detractors when they were most popular. It took real courage to do what they did.


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Real jazz was never popular.
Musicians who play jazz and give concerts know it perfectly well.

[Maxxx]

I am actually grateful of the fact that jazz isn't popular. It acts as a barometer and human intelligence filter.

In the same way so few people play serious chess these days or read Shakespeare.
I do not know a single young person that can draw, or paint, or make barely anything beautiful with their hands and certainly not play an instrument.

I have yet to come across a woman that can even cook properly.
All these activities require thought. People are losing their ability to think.

Anything that becomes too popular and develops mass appeal also soon gets destroyed.

You just need to look on YouTube and see the some of the world's most talented and greatest jazz musicians videos only have a few hundred views in the last 10 years.
But a girl wiggling her bum while singing the most mind numbing trash you ever heard can get 500 million views in a week.

The world gets more and more dumb everyday.

[Marinero]

I am actually grateful of the fact that jazz isn't popular. It acts as a barometer and human intelligence filter.

In the same way so few people play serious chess these days or read Shakespeare.
I do not know a single young person that can draw, or paint, or make barely anything beautiful with their hands and certainly not play an instrument.

I have yet to come across a woman that can even cook properly.
All these activities require thought. People are losing their ability to think.

Anything that becomes too popular and develops mass appeal also soon gets destroyed.

You just need to look on YouTube and see the some of the world's most talented and greatest jazz musicians videos only have a few hundred views in the last 10 years.
But a girl wiggling her bum while singing the most mind numbing trash you ever heard can get 500 million views in a week.

The world gets more and more dumb everyday.

O.K. Maxxx,
***** You are hereby awarded Marinero's JGF Quote of the Day!***** And, I'd like to add one thing else: One of the greatest destroyers of human creativity for the Common Man is the cell phone, television, and the internet. It took him out of his garage, away from his fishing boat, kids' baseball games, ignoring books, quality music, hobbies . . . for flashy videos, and mindless low-brow entertainment while isolating him from the wonderful visceral world that surrounded him daily that he traded for a couch in front of a TV or a chair at his desk or in his car staring at a screen when he is driving. It has taken Man from being a Participator in Life to a Watcher of Life. And, this is truly sad since the internet IS a double-edged sword since it does provide one of the greatest venues for free information, ever, in the History of Man . . . however, it is the vanity of Tick Tok, Facebook, Twitter, and millions of mind-numbing videos by "influencers" that have taken Man down this mind-rotting road. And, it is quantifiable in our case of music with the lack of opportunities for serious musicians to perform their music for fair monetary compensation. Stop anyone on the street and ask them what is the last book they read or music they played for enjoyment . . . the proof is in the pudding.
Marinero