A Hollow Body Guitar from Scrap Wood in Two Weeks ?

[Cunamara]

Pear has been used for classical guitars, if I recall correctly.

[Jimmy blue note]

Pear has been used for classical guitars, if I recall correctly.

And lutes. Bends nicely. Nice to work with. Has a nice sound. Somebody should make a flat top and an archtop from it. That'd be a nice pair.

[RJVB]

Pear has been used for classical guitars, if I recall correctly.

Used to be the wood of choice for recorders, too. Even if those aren't pear-shaped

[Rickco]

What about pine?

The luthier working on a vintage S.S. Stewart of mine says that's what it's made from, and that pine is a great guitar wood. Never had heard that before.

What do you think?

Bob B built a knotty pine archtop still for sale on reverb last I checked. $14k .

[Hammertone]

Scrap oak as a tonewood?

100 year-old airdried silky oak is not scrap oak. Grevillea robusta is also known as silky oak, silver oak, and silverwood. Larrivée is a big fan and uses it on various flattops.

"Bog oak", smoked oak - these are ammoniated, which does really interesting things to the wood, including darkening it. Höfner has been working on a sustainable / local wood "Greenline" program for decades, and has started using it for fretboards and bridges. It's great stuff (see pix). They also use laurel, apple, pearwood, alder and more on various classical guitars.

[Hammertone]

Here's a nice Roger with Pearwood back plate and rims, made for Michael Compernass by Sandner, using NOS Roger parts. I have a one of these backplates in pearwood as well. Heavier than maple.

Black-dyed pearwood was used for decades for inexpensive bridges and fretboards supplied for use by German and American guitar builders. Not so much these days, I suspect.

[Jimmy blue note]

Bob B built a knotty pine archtop still for sale on reverb last I checked. $14k .

Never heard of this one, and after seeing it, I'd have to say wow! Knots present a real challenge to carve, especially in the fine thicknesses needed to voice an archtop plate. It's very hard knotwood surrounded by very soft wood. I'd imagine it'd make a challenging wood to voice and tune for that reason; there's a great impedance mismatch at those points. Luthiers work VERY hard to make sure a surface is absolutely smooth and even in the carvings so the wood acts as one continuous medium of smooth vibrating surface. This is broken by bracing but ideally everything else is as close to ideal as possible. That's why straight quartered wood is treasured and costs so much more. Broken knotty wood is full of consistencies but it looks pretty stunning.
Any other builder without Benedetto's "beyond reproach" reputation wouldn't get away with it and yeah, a piece of highly questionable wood in the hands of a master can outshine the top AAAA+ graded wood in the hands of a mediocre builder any day.
Torres, the father of modern guitar building made a guitar out of papier mache just to prove he knew how to handle the materials. And though it sounded fantastic, an instrument built to prove a point is still freaky in my book. I'll go with proven and sound design and materials any day, albeit utilizing sustainable woods.

There was an extensive study done a number of decades ago wherein many woods were tested to determine which species provided the optimum acoustic properties for lutherie. Interestingly enough, the best wood for violins and archtop turned out to be apple. But nobody builds with apple. Nobody would buy it and it's not a common wood to find in widths and cut to easily find and experiment with (each wood has different properties and requires its own unique dimensions to make ideal performance based on archings, contour, carving pattern, etc) so maple is a known, spruce is a known, and it forms the templates for anyone with less than a master level knowledge of factours and their effects.

Put a $15K price tag, a prestige name on it and a good PR machine in play and you've got the mystique. Case in point: Run out of adequate supplies of wood for bookmatched rosewood backs? Build mismatched three piece backs and say it's the result of meticulous innovation and evolution and yeah, they become collector's items sought after for top dollar.

Love the idea of pine. Knotty pine? I'll leave it to the collectors.

[Rickco]

mmmmmm Fuji apple would give a nice sweet tone

[bluenote61]

Why not birch?
Joe Striebel built years ago a nice 16" archtop using highly flamed birch for the bottom.

[jazzshrink]

mmmmmm Fuji apple would give a nice sweet tone

That might be true, but I prefer this tree for archtops.

[RJVB]

Knotty pine? I'll leave it to the collectors.

What about knotty cedar? Fred Pons of Kopo Guitares has built a few guitars from a piece of cedar that had knots (or something of the sort) in it:

He also uses a modern variant of papier mâché: Klas solution | guitar

Why not birch?
Joe Striebel built years ago a nice 16" archtop using highly flamed birch for the bottom.

Birch can be very nice (close to maple soundwise IIRC), and I think that the original L5 was built with it - and thus maybe some of its predecessors as well.

[joelf]

Why not birch?
Joe Striebel built years ago a nice 16" archtop using highly flamed birch for the bottom.

Good and gadzooks! Me like...

[joelf]

Now I'm confused---again:

I though my S.S. Stewart was made from pine, but now that I see birch mentioned maybe it was birch.

Guitar mavens, help me out...

[Banksia]

It's not oak. He said It's "silky oak" which is possibly Grevillea robusta or Cardwilia sublimis. (depending on whether it's Southern silky oak or Northern silky oak. Stupid commercial names.)

They are both Australian trees and the builder seems to be from Queensland so he could be using either. It's not even closely related to the Oak genus.

https://kirbyfinetimber.com.au/produ...ern-silky-oak/

[joelf]

Scratch that. This from google:

'Materials: Handcarved bookmatched solid Adirondack spruce top; arched flamed maple back and sides; one-piece Honduras mahogany neck; solid Brazilian rosewood fingerboard with block pearloid inlay; ornate floral abalone peghead logo inlay; checkerboard top binding, bound fingerboard and body; solid bone nut'.

[Jimmy blue note]

Now I'm confused---again:

I though my S.S. Stewart was made from pine, but now that I see birch mentioned maybe it was birch.

Guitar mavens, help me out...

Birch is a body wood, hard and resonant. Pine is a top wood (soundboard wood), light and strong, greater crossgrain stiffness and greater strength to weight ratio.
You need hardwoods for body strength, softwoods (generally) for response so an acoustic signal can be efficiently turned into movement (sound radiation).
In an acoustic archtop, often you'll have at least two kinds of wood for the body.

It is notable that mahogany fits somewhere between maple and spruce and could be quite effectively used in top and back. It's easy to use, resonant and very durable. It's also an open pore wood which would require filling to get a smooth finish, so it's easy to build with, not so simple to finish.

[Jimmy blue note]

It's not oak. He said It's "silky oak" which is possibly Grevillea robusta or Cardwilia sublimis. (depending on whether it's Southern silky oak or Northern silky oak. Stupid commercial names.)

Like Chilean Sea Bass. Stupid commercial name for something totally unrelated to its namesake. Real name for Chilean Sea Bass: Patagonian Tooth Fish. Maybe a good move to give it a tastier name.

[joelf]

Birch is a body wood, hard and resonant. Pine is a top wood (soundboard wood), light and strong, greater crossgrain stiffness and greater strength to weight ratio.
You need hardwoods for body strength, softwoods (generally) for response so an acoustic signal can be efficiently turned into movement (sound radiation).
In an acoustic archtop, often you'll have at least two kinds of wood for the body.

It is notable that mahogany fits somewhere between maple and spruce and could be quite effectively used in top and back. It's easy to use, resonant and very durable. It's also an open pore wood which would require filling to get a smooth finish, so it's easy to build with, not so simple to finish.

Thanks for the detailed info---really.

However, (clears throat): Jason, my local luthier, made a clear observation: my ca 1955 SS Stewart was made of (and this is where I'm confused) either birch or pine. I think he meant that the body was.

Spruce was not mentioned ever by him---nor was mahogany---and its his business to know comprehensively and explain about these instruments. I never argue with a guy who knows way more than me (including yourself)...

[Hammertone]

Why not birch?

...because it's hard to find trees with trunks wide enough to yield useful size planks for building 16" arched-back guitars. Gibson used it for a brief period before moving to maple. More expensive, less reliable supply, no huge benefit compared to readily available maple.

Guitar makers like Brian Monty (Canada) and Juha Ruokangas (Finland) have used it for top caps on their Les-Paul-sized guitars. Juha likes to blab about it a lot as part of his approach. Brian is a bit more curmudgeonly about it. Both make great guitars.

[Jimmy blue note]

Thanks for the detailed info---really.

However, (clears throat): Jason, my local luthier, made a clear observation: my ca 1955 SS Stewart was made of (and this is where I'm confused) either birch or pine. I think he meant that the body was.

Spruce was not mentioned ever by him---nor was mahogany---and its his business to know comprehensively and explain about these instruments. I never argue with a guy who knows way more than me (including yourself)...

Of course. I was just saying that if it were pine, it was probably in reference to a top (the plate with the F holes in it) wood and if it were birch, it probably would be used for the back plate, and sides; a good traditional body of a stringed instrument being made of a combination of two types of wood: One to create a sound chamber and one to efficiently turn the energy from the strings into moving air.
When you're talking pine and birch, you're talking about two different types of wood, each representative of two different functions, both of which are needed to make a guitar. Both are body woods. This is where an acoustic guitar is distinct from a solid body. Body construction is different.

You say birch OR pine. It wouldn't surprise me if it were a matter of birch AND pine... or birch as a laminate for an electric designed guitar that you'd play plugged in for best performance.

I guess Jason would best fill you in as to what's gone into your guitar. Lots of ways to build a guitar. Having it in hand is the only way to know.

[RJVB]

Guitar makers like Brian Monty (Canada) and Juha Ruokangas (Finland) have used it for top caps on their Les-Paul-sized guitars.

If memory serves me well wood-body Beard resonators are birch too. There's a huge birch tree in the garden of my parents' house which is probably at least 50 years old. I'd say that it's easily wide enough for an 18" archtop at its base, just judging from its girth of course. (Courtesy of us never giving in to neighbours who started complaining how it "took their sun" from the day they moved in )

But I also have a distinct memory of reading about all-birch acoustic guitars built IIRC in pre- and interbellum Germany, and hearing some samples that didn't sound bad at all. I'm pretty sure the Kirschnek/Troubadour archtop I had was all (laminated) birch. It too didn't sound bad at all, not given its deplorable state of conservation.

[Jimmy blue note]

But I also have a distinct memory of reading about all-birch acoustic guitars built IIRC in pre- and interbellum Germany, and hearing some samples that didn't sound bad at all. I'm pretty sure the Kirschnek/Troubadour archtop I had was all (laminated) birch. It too didn't sound bad at all, not given its deplorable state of conservation.

Laminated birch is, it turns out, a great wood for laminate layers. A lot of guitars with unspecified plies are in fact laminated birch. For solid carved guitars, the trick is to find a section of the tree free of knots. That usually means older trees with slower growth, within a forest growth where they could grow towards the sun in their own time. My parents had a big birch and it was old and thick but grew free and fast in its early days. It was more branch and offshoot than clear trunk, which made it great for climbing, not so good for guitars. But for laminates of course, they just take a log, knots and all, and essentially peel off the layers like a giant roll of paper towels. Only needs to be pretty on the outermost ply.
Some pretty spectacular outer plies in the limited edition Ibanez'es that came across my bench in the day: Burl, extreme curl, crazy stuff. All skin deep but beautiful.

[Ol' Fret]

Lloyd Loar knew exactly what to expect when using birch for L-5s. Awesome sounding wood for acoustic archtop backs (and sides); solid wood, of course.

Yep, Joe Striebel is an open-minded guitar maker with big ears as well:

[Ol' Fret]

Knots and knurls don't mean a thing for the instruments' tone, rather for the sore eyes of some picky customers:

The prominent knots in the back of the c. 1670 ‘Tullaye’ suggest that Stradivari had limited access to wood. Photo: Taris… | Violin art, Stradivarius violin, Violin (pinterest.de)

Violin, Antonio Stradivari, Cremona, 1725, “Chaconne” - Oesterreichische Nationalbank (OeNB)

[Jimmy blue note]

Knots and knurls don't mean a thing for the instruments' tone, rather for the sore eyes of some picky customers:

The prominent knots in the back of the c. 1670 ‘Tullaye’ suggest that Stradivari had limited access to wood. Photo: Taris… | Violin art, Stradivarius violin, Violin (pinterest.de)

Violin, Antonio Stradivari, Cremona, 1725, “Chaconne” - Oesterreichische Nationalbank (OeNB)

Believe me, they're a nightmare to work from a woodworker's point of view.