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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
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02-14-2015 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
"Also, mere mortal individuals like myself are easily as capable of finding and buying the best wood available. I've done so myself on two separate occasions. The last one was the best. The wood I got for my Heritage Super Golden Eagle is easily equivalent to anything that Benedetto, Buscarino, Comins, Monteleone, Lacey . . or any other top luthier could have gotten.
Patrick, we're not going to agree on this. The quote above is what I was responding to. I just plain disagree with with regard to this. Your definition of the best woods just may be different than mine.
You claim that your wood is as good as anything that some fine luthiers could get. Aesthetically, it absolutely could be. Stability wise and sonically, who knows? I think that is where we differ. I know most of the reputable sources of hardwood as well. I know what to look for visually, but out of 20 good looking sets, a competent luthier would pick 1 or 2 based upon experience and skills that I do not possess. The best spruce purveyors in the World, guys like Rudolf Bachmann, John Griffin, Martin Guhl, John Preston, and Andrea & Stefano Rivolta sell spruce to many luthiers. They all grade it (AA, AAA etc.) but most of what they send to luthiers gets returned (not always, but frequently) because they have different skills and are evaluating different attributes of the set.
"Further, any luthier unwilling to warranty a guitar he/she builds if the customer supplies the wood . . . well, they just ain't worth their salt . . as the saying goes. Any competent luthier would be able to look at a set of planks and determin if they're build worthy or not.
If only Patrick.
They can look at its attributes, they can even measure its moisture content. But stability in woods is best accomplished through long periods of seasoning. One luthier who I work with wont use any wood that hasn't been seasoning in his shop for at least 5-years. The wood that he is using on my build is well over 20-years old. Some of these woods are no longer available in the quality that he has as well. The luthiers who have said this to me certainly are "worth their salt", BTW.
Patrick, forget the interaction aspect before and during the specification and build process. Jay is a fine guy, it is just not the same as talk with a good custom luthier. Regarding heterogeneity in quality. I will show you a 2009 Heritage that I ordered. I received a guitar that 1) was set up and released by Ren; 2) went to my dealer and was inspected before being sent to me. Keep in mind that I was a return customer at this point in time.
Besides the badly cut nut (cut by Ren) that required replacement, please take a look at these plek scans by Phil Jacoby. You can see a 0.020" (0.5 mm) deep finger board depression (concavity) between frets 6 and 11. The tops of frets 6, 7, 8 and 9 fall below the theoretical arch because they are referenced off of the finger board depression which places them below their proper position. This is from poor workmanship when finishing the fingerboard. The person who did it and the person who inspected it just didn't give a damn. I can assure you that this depression was quite visible to the eye (like the nut) when siting the neck and not just a numeric anomaly.
The instrument could not be plek leveled by Phil as is as a result. Phil needed to replace the fret wire in frets 6, 7, 8 and 9 with taller fret wire that was ground down to fit the width of the width of the original 6105 wire on the instrument installed by Heritage. The localized depression will always exist, but the frets were at least restored to their proper position after plek leveling.
NO luthier that I have worked with would put their name on that guitar. To be fair, my 2001 Sweet 16 was a great guitar. No issues whatsoever. Was it as good as my custom luthier guitars? No, not by a long shot, but it was a fine guitar that I enjoyed for 11 years.
I concur with your assessment of Benedetto guitars, albeit a smaller 5 person shop, but it is the same as Heritage in their operation. I stopped considering Bob an independent luthier many years ago.
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Being a vintage Epiphone aficionado, I own and have played many older Epi carved archtops, and have found it curious that they all feature rosewood fingerboards over the more established ebony. I read that the owner of the company felt that rosewood was a better tonewood, so he used it on the entire range of instruments from student level guitars to their top of the line 18 1/2" Emperor.
I would actually like to see high end archtops made with different woods besides ebony simply because I like their look. While I have and enjoy many guitars with ebony, I cherish my instruments with rosewood fingerboards, bridges, and tailpieces. Furthermore, I've seen examples of instruments with non standard fingerboard woods that are drop dead gorgeous.
Here is a Ken Parker with a koa finderboard. Look at that color . . . inspiring!
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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
As a non - Patrick and "just another customer" who currently owns two and has owned two more Heritages, I can tell you unequivocally that you are wrong about this.
You just need to ask, to be very specific about what you want, and above all, don't be a dick about it.
If you communicate, they are all ears on Parson St. and will move mountains to get you what you want. They will also tell you that what you want might not be the best idea, but at the end of the discussion, they'll still build it for you.
I'm on board with Patrick about Jay Wolfe as well. As I get older, I don't feel the need to buy much stuff any more, but if I want ANYTHING and Jay has the means to provide it, I'm calling him.Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 02-14-2015 at 02:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
Interesting. I would not have guessed that customers are so well behaved once you crack that door and I'm glad they can get away with it without it burning too much work time.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
I'm not sure where the line is between 'small factory' and 'boutique' builders. Guess these terms would depend on the size of the operation and how much hands on the proprietor has. I don't know about now, but years ago in the flat top world Goodall, what I would call a boutique builder, was making guitars that were within sight of well made custom guitars.
I like Heritage guitars. I have two of them bought when they were in their infancy. I like hearing about how they interact with the public and based on your description I do believe they would treat me well as long as I'm willing to politely interact. And of course then treat me even better after I shamelessly leverage my online friendship with you.
Thing is, having had a custom flat top made, I sure would like a custom archtop. I don't think anything in guitar acquisition world matches that experience. I just need to get a grip on what it is I really want and get over being so cheap.Last edited by Spook410; 02-14-2015 at 04:39 PM.
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Since it is such a rotten day today and we're trapped indoors, I thought that I would illustrate what I have been saying with a few real world examples. These are not for archtops, but for carved back nylon string and steel stringed guitars; but I believe they illustrate the points that I was trying to make about tonewood. Luthiers cannot resist buying particularly nice set of wood when they see it. In many cases it sits in their wood locker for decades. They literally have thousands of dollars of their money is tied up in wood over decades.
Example #1:
Here is set of quatersawn Honduran Rosewood that has been made into a set ready for carving. All sets in his woodlocker are labelled and dated. He has had this set since 1992 (23-years old). We chose this set among with 3 sets of Honduran Rosewood, 3 sets of African Blackwood and 3 sets of Cocobolo. Go try to find a set of quartersawn 1" thick quartersawn sets that has been seasoning for over two decades. This is an example of rare, well cut and well seasoned.
Example #2:
Here in a set of resawn, quartersawn Bigleaf Maple in the raw in a 2" split billet. He has had this set in his woodlocker since 1998 (17-years old). Now this is maple, and there are many nicely figured, quartersawn 6-8% kiln dried sets 1-3 years old at luthier tonewood supplier, but not nearly two-decades old. I was presented with 10 sets to choose among. Sonically, he felt they were all equal (but remember, they were selected by him) and the choice at this point was aesthetic in the end.
Example #3:
This is the German Spruce top to the Maple guitar. I think it is a good example of grading. This German Spruce set was purchased from Martin Guhl in 2008 (7-years ago). He graded it AA/AAA which aesthetically is pretty good by his grading system. Check out his sonic assessment of the set made 4-years later made in 2012 (supah!). We used this set based upon sonic potential. So this set is AA/AAA aesthitically by his grading (some wood purveyors would grade it much higher), he graded it AAAAA in sonic potential (or Supah!).
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Wow! This debate between you and I is still raging on? That's great! I love it. You're dug firmly in to your understandings and I am in to mine. The great benefit to me, and possibly to you too, is that as we each offer additional info that the other perceives plausible, or implausible . . I seek to research the matter further. This to me is a beneficial part of the learning process. The benefit to fellow forumites is that they learn along with us.
So then as I see it, you're buying totally into what your luthier is telling you about aging, or seasoning wood. (I prefer aging . . as I only season my pasta sauces) Has your luthier explained to you what the difference between a set of planks 3, 5, 10, 20 years old might be as it relates to tonal quality prior to carving and cutting and building? Stability is established long before 2 decades . . or even a decade, if the wood is aged in a proper environment. So, my question would be, what would the difference be, sonically, between a properly aged 3 year old plank top . . and a properly aged 20 year old plank top?
As I've come to understand the enhancement of a tonal response from wood . . it occurs mostly after the guitar is built, and as the wood continues to age with further enhancement of the resonance created by vibration . . vis-a-vs . . playing. So then the question becomes . . "how long is long enough to age wood before working with it"?. As you can see from the articles and quotes shown below, different experts have differing opinions. But, all seem to agree that the sonic transformation occurs when the wood is *adequately and properly* aged . . then played extensively.
Here's a very interesting read on the subject;
http://toneaging.com/Great_Tone_Origin.php
Here is a copy and paste of another luthier's view on the matter;
AGING AND DRYING: One of the great mystiques in luthiere is that the wood we use must be old, and naturally aged at that (i.e. air dried). This is not entirely a myth. Instrument woods must be dry. If wood has not reached a comfortable moisture equilibrium with the environment it lives in it may shrink or swell over time. This problem is worse when the guitar is placed in different conditions. The greatest danger is shrinkage from wood placed in a very dry environment, or which is insufficiently dried. Either condition will inevitably lead to cracks. Whether it is better to air dry wood, as opposed to kiln drying , is a more difficult question. Kiln drying is quicker, and therefore, cheaper. I suspect that properly done kiln drying is as good as air drying, but it is quite possible to do it wrong, with a number of serious problems. As a result, most builders look for air dried wood, but at the same time, most of the wood out there is kiln dried. The compromise I use is to try to have 3 or 4 years of wood in stock at all times so that the wood I use at any given time has been air dryingin my shop for at least three years. This should ensure wood that is up to my standards.
Here's a link to he whole article;
http://www.hoffmanguitars.com/woods.htm
My wood selections are much like your own, as defined by this sentence copied from your post above;
"I was presented with 10 sets to choose among. Sonically, he felt they were all equal (but remember, they were selected by him) and the choice at this point was aesthetic in the end."
Much like yourself, I rely upon the experience and the insight of expert wood purveyors and luthiers . . then I make my choices based upon aesthetics . . without sacrificing tone.
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Patrick,
I wasn't so much debating, but trying to illustrate some of my earlier points. I understand that others come to the conversation with different experiences and opinions.
Regarding how wood changes over time, it is actually fairly well understood. Beyond the unbound moisture that is removed during the kiln drying process, the 6-8% moisture remaining is mostly bound moisture within the cells. This wood is adequately dry to build a heavier built factory guitar. Luthiers tend to build for performance and in many cases that means lighter. So adequately physically stable for a factory guitar, may not be adequate for a more lightly built instrument.
New Hampshire luthier Alan Carruth wrote a very nice synopsis regarding the chemical and physical changes that occur over time.
"One thing we know happens over time in wood is that the hemicellulose degrades. The structural part of wood consists of about 50% cellulose, a very stable long-chain polysaccharide, with the rest being aboutequal parts lignin, which acts as a "glue", and hemicellulose, a branched chain polysaccharide, that acts more or less as a 'filler'. The 'loose ends' of the hemicellulose break down chemically into CO2 and H2O over time, and the wood gets a little less dense and stiff as a result. This is a slow process, and it's not known as yet whether it's effected by stress or vibration. One outcome of this is that spruce tends to become more opaque over time, and the small voids left by the dissappearing HC reflect light."
Alan is a scientific, facts based guy and a straight shooter. These are the changes in spruce that companies like Bourgeois, Collings, Huss & Dalton and now CF Martin (at NAMM this year) are trying to accelerate by the use of torrefaction. Now to be fair, I don't think the rate kinetics of change (e.g. 20 years, 50 years) and how environmental conditions influence these are well understood and in instruments the sonic impact is always confounded with the mechanical effects of play.
We're in absolute agreement that most of the sonic outcome is driven by the 1) builder, their design and execution; followed by 2) the top wood selection; and lastly 3) the back, side, neck tonewoods used. I think I said this earlier in the thread.
We have gone a bit down the thread rabbit hole. My point to you is when you get wood from an experienced luthier they have chosen the wood using important sensory skills that have been developed over decades that dictate the sonic potential of a top or back/sides. That is an added value of informed selection that an individual like you or I or a factory cannot have due to the realities of supplying hundreds or thousands of sets a year. Most lifetime luthiers build <400 to as many as 2,000 in rare examples (guys like Buscarino, Greven and Olson).
Last edited by iim7V7IM7; 02-15-2015 at 02:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
Also, how much better will tonewood sound, if the aging process after the build and during playing, began when the wood was kiln dried (properly) to the point of the remaining 6% to 8% . . . as opposed to further aging and the natural removal of that 6% to 8% of residual moisture? These are great questions . . and IMO, probably can't be answered with scientific certainty . . due to the very nature of the inconsistencies of tonewood from billet, to billet, to billet.
At some point, ya gotta just build the guitar. Hopefully, you're not the type of a person that would have a guitar built from a 5 year old set of properly aged spruce and maple . . then lay awake at night wondering how much better it might have sounded if the planks aged another 5 years. I'm just not sure you, or I or even Fido the Beagle Hound would be able to here a difference.
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"So then, would one billet need 3 years, another 5 . . another 10 . . even if from the same tree? Do you suggest that luthiers just continue to buy and age tonewood for a decade, or even longer, just to make sure that their erring on the side of safety to cover the differences? Do luthiers discount the further aging that takes place after the guitar is constructed?"
Patrick, for what its worth, I am not in the habit of challenging luthier's whom I work with on their material selection and construction practices. I enjoy these collaborations and look at them as opportunities to listen and learn from master craftsmen. I have attempted, obviously unsuccessfully to share some what I have learned with the forum.
"Also, mere mortal individuals like myself are easily as capable of finding and buying the best wood available. I've done so myself on two separate occasions. The last one was the best. The wood I got for my Heritage Super Golden Eagle is easily equivalent to anything that Benedetto, Buscarino, Comins, Monteleone, Lacey . . or any other top luthier could have gotten."
This whole lengthy circular series of questions started because I disagreed with you that the skills required for successful wood selection required skills that lay people and wood purveyors do not possess. You also went on to say that your wood was "equal" to that of a number of great luthiers. I have again unsuccessfully tried to articulate why I respectfully disagree with you.
"Further, any luthier unwilling to warranty a guitar he/she builds if the customer supplies the wood . . . well, they just ain't worth their salt . . as the saying goes. Any competent luthier would be able to look at a set of planks and determin if they're build worthy or not."
You went on to suggest the luthiers who told me that they don't like to use client supplied woods and it can impact their ability to warranty aren't "worth their salt". Again, I happen to disagree with you and I would suggest you don't have an equal level of knowledge to inform them about long-term structural risks as they do. I trust their judgement on such things. They have made these decisions based on bad experiences.
"At some point, ya gotta just build the guitar. Hopefully, you're not the type of a person that would have a guitar built from a 5 year old set of properly aged spruce and maple . . then lay awake at night wondering how much better it might have sounded if the planks aged another 5 years. I'm just not sure you, or I or even Fido the Beagle Hound would be able to here a difference."
You now suggest that the thoughts that I shared are esoteric and beyond the point of diminishing returns (I am being kind, you were a bit more making fun of what you disagree with). Again, we simply disagree. My efforts to try explain how I felt the wood that they used was never based on aging alone. It was one aspect. It was always on their ability to select wood with potential. The age aspect does have to do with stability in more lightly built guitars than factory guitars, I also tried to illustrate that it has to do with availability. There are woods that just aren't available any longer.
I have now been fortunate enough to have commissioned 10 custom guitars with 8 different luthiers. Each collaboration has been an extremely positive and highly educational experience. Based on my experience, I believe in the mastery of a solo luthier, skilled in the art to create a superior instrument. Part of that process is wood selection by a "master". That's been my experience and it is the basis of my opinion.
In closing, we can just disagree and you can go on thinking what you'd like on the subject of tonewood and custom luthiery. Forum members can read opposing points of view and make up their own minds. We surely aren't going to convince each other.
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Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
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Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
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Patrick,
You have officially succeeded in making me not want to participate here any longer. (congratulations!)
It just becomes exhausting going endlessly back-and-forth; and as a result, it no longer any fun. I come here to have fun, learn and share with others with similar interests. In short, I come here to have a two-way dialogue and not to debate or argue. If this was a dinner party, I would have quietly excused myself and left a while ago to go home; or more likely, the polite hosts might have asked you to leave.
In lieu of that, I bid the forum adieu.
Bob
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Wow!! We went from a discussion about your opinions on tonewood as compared to my own . . . with no vitriolic posts by either of us . . . . all the way to . . . . "if I can't convince you that I'm right on this, and you don't agree with me, I'm going to quit the forum"??? What's up with that?? Who are you and what did you do with the real iim7V7IM7. Am I to accept that only your own opinon is valid, or you quit the forum?? I'm really surprised, I meant you no offense, and I hope you'll reconsider.
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looks to me like a friendly debate about extreme esoterica, then one party became weary of it, and proceeded to blame the other party for his weariness.
doesn't really seem fair.
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Some people haven't yet learned that when a thread starts going sideways it's best to ignore it and move on.
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Originally Posted by fumblefingers
(That one's off-limits with my kids. They know that they will get the groan-inducing comment from dad about using the "F word" in our house.
What's the fun of being a dad, after all, if you can't tell the worst jokes in the house?)
There's gotta be more to it than this thread.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Also curious about the objection to the word "fair". What's wrong with that word? Obama uses it all the time so its perfectly PC and current.
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Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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sure, sure.
i guess i believe in the concept of tough but fair. tough seems to be out of vogue these days...
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"Esotericism (or esoterism) signifies the holding of esoteric opinions or beliefs, that is, ideas preserved or understood by a small group of those specially initiated, or of rare or unusual interest." Wikipedia
I think this concept applies to tonewoods and luthiery appropriately, I do not understand why it is offensive to state it as such. We know that people with special hearing abilities are in the minority, from those even smaller numbers are trained to distinguish finer nuances. Even those with so called golden ears are limited with the hardware of human hearing apparatus leading to psychoacoustic phenomena and auditory illusions (to which nobody is immune).
Of course, people are free to believe what they hear and assign subjective quality, value and price as they choose. Other people can pay the price or accept the value/quality with or without applying critical thinking ("toughness of mind" vs "fairness in freedom of choice" :-).
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Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
To avoid recurrences of this unfortunate result, I have a modest proposal.
Future arguments re: guitar performance and tonal debates will not be settled by the contestants themselves, but by their appointed champions, to be known as "Chevaliers de Lutherie". The medieval practice of contest by champions has much to recommend it.
These intrepid luthiers shall meet at dawn, on a level playing field, accompanied by the contestants, and their seconds. The choice of weapons shall be selected from (i) spoke sharpeners--to be hurled from 20 paces, (ii) cudgels--to be prepared from an agreed upon warehouse of tone woods, to be selected by the champion himself--or in consultation with the client/purchaser, (iii) spray guns--with nitrocellulose bursts from 5 paces, or (iv) invective--to be hurled from afar in digital assault.
In the case of (iv), the person who leaves the field of battle first shall be declared the loser by forfeit. In the case of (iii), a suitable jurisdiction of battle shall be selected, which may not be (A) California due to environmental regulations prohibiting the use of nitrocellulose, or (B) New Jersey, due to its unfortunate reputation as the home of "The Sopranos", as well as unfortunate historical connotations surrounding dueling, as Aaron Burr fled to Weehawken, NJ after killing Alexander Hamilton in 1804.
Readers of this proposal are warned in advance that one of my personal heroes is Jonathan Swift, who, when asked what he wrote about, replied, if memory serves "Sir, my subject is satire....that way I never want for subject matter."
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Thank you. This is definitely my "post of the week". :-)
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I can state with experience that Heritage will truly customize an instrument to your needs if you go through the effort of fully discussing this with them. You have to get their attention though.
Originally Posted by Spook410
What's happening at the end of this song?
Today, 07:55 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading