Repair a Framus nylon guitar-w/video

[Question]

My partner's father has an old nylon-string Framus folk guitar that he bought in the 60's from a friend.

When we come to visit I play it to avoid having to carry a guitar with me on the trip.

This guitar has a charming sound and a lot of sentimental value, and they enjoy hearing someone play it since they can not.

The problem is that the neck has the typical (very) raised fingerboard at the 13th fret where the neck meets the body. There is no visible wear on the frets. It has a zero fret.

I put a 3mm shim under the bridge to make it somewhat playable. Since it doesn't make much sense to invest €300. into an instrument worth €100.,
I have often considered pulling out the frets myself, leveling the fingerboard and then putting in new frets, (or if it is possible to remove the frets without damage and put them back in).

Is this a crazy idea to attempt this myself? I am very good with woodwork and with tools but have never removed frets and leveled a fingerboard.

What sort of specialized tools would I need (like a fret puller, fret saw etc.) I have lots of fine woodworking tools that are not guitar specific.

Here are some photos to get an idea of what it looks like.

[deacon Mark]

Removing the neck would be easier and adding proper angle. Heat the fingerboard over the top and possibly that will the enough heat to the neck joint so that you can steam it out. It is not a huge dovetail and might come off pretty easy. That much better than frets leave them alone.

[Question]

@deacon Mark.

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well.

The neck angle seems fine, part of the fingerboard is raised about three mm starting at the 12 fret where the neck meets the body. If I just removed all of the frets above the 12th, it would probably play ok, but I would like to retain all of the frets.

The string action looks abnormally high in the photos due to the 3mm shim under treble side of the bridge.

[garybaldy]

Is the neck straight from nut to 12th fret?

[deacon Mark]

In

@deacon Mark.

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well.

The neck angle is fine, part of the fingerboard is raised about three mm starting at the 12 fret where the neck meets the body. If I just removed all of the frets above the 12th, it would probably play ok, but I would like to retain all of the frets.

The string action looks abnormally high in the photos due to the 2mm shim under treble side of the bridge. (not seen in the photos)

Because the neck angle is wrong. The neck not sitting correctly in joint.

[Question]

@Garybaldy

Yes the neck seems fairly straight up to the 12th fret, at that point there is a pronounced hump where it frets out. I put a 3mm shim under the bridge in order to have the strings clear the hump to be able to play it at all. That is why the string action looks so high and at a strange angle in the photo.

@deacon Mark

Can you please explain how you can discern that the neck angle is wrong? Or is it typical that when the neck angle is wrong that the symptom would often be that the upper part of the fingerboard would seem to be raised? If I lay a straight edge on the neck I can see that the fingerboard is raised where it joins the body. Actually if I just sight down the fingerboard it is easy to see as it is 2-3 mm!

Thanks for the replies.

[kris]

A musician who takes on the task of repairing an old guitar is a great challenge.
You have to spend a lot of time repairing.
Unless you are an experienced guitar maker with many years of practice.
You never know what the result of the repair will be.
That's why I personally limit myself to minor repairs and give the serious ones to professionals.
Best
Kris

[Question]

@Kris

yes, I know there is a risk. I have worked with wood and metal my entire life and have always done small repairs on my instruments, but never frets or fingerboards.

I haven't decided to do this myself yet, just wanted to put this out there and see what real repair pros think.

It might just go back in the closet where it has been for the past 50 years as a piece of family history.

Here are two more photos showing the shim under the bridge and the fingerboard. I couldn't get a very focused photo with my phone.

[kris]

@Kris

yes, I know there is a risk. I have worked with wood and metal my entire life and have always done small repairs on my instruments, but never frets or fingerboards.

I haven't decided to do this myself yet, just wanted to put this out there and see what real repair pros think.

It might just go back in the closet where it has been for the past 50 years as a piece of family history.

Here are two more photos showing the shim under the bridge and the fingerboard. I couldn't get a very focused photo with my phone.

If you are convinced that this guitar now has a power.
And that after the repairs it will be a good instrument to play.
You can take a chance with the repair.
The only questions I can ask is: how will this guitar behave after a thorough reconstruction?
whether something new will appear that will surprise you...?

[garybaldy]

@Garybaldy

Yes the neck seems fairly straight up to the 12th fret, at that point there is a pronounced hump where it frets out. I put a 2mm shim under the bridge in order to have the strings clear the hump to be able to play it at all. That is why the string action looks so high and at a strange angle in the photo.

Thanks for the replies.

My Hofner Congress was similar when I got it but the neck was also bending up. Luckily it has an adjustable truss rod which I tightened having used a homemade jig to straighten the neck first. (less strain on the threads that way). I'm not sure if the hump on mine was as bad as yours but I was able to cure the choking with a fret dress - something that I had never done before!

[Question]

@garybaldy

This is a nylon string guitar, so unfortunately no truss rod. I think even if I removed all of the frets above the 12th that the strings would still not clear the hump.

As I wrote earlier, this guitar has no monetary value, it is just a piece of family history so I thought it would be rewarding to bring it back to life myself if possible.

[GuyBoden]

If it's got "no monetary value". If you have the woodwork skills, or can learn the skills needed online, remove and reset the neck.

[deacon Mark]

The more I look at this the odder it gets. Since classical no real neck angle as such but it appears the top move up the end fingerboard went with it? Just a guess but really if you remove the neck you can see what happen. Then depending on that you can simply heat shape the extension back in line however that might cause a gap in the top at the extension. If you can force glue it down, it may still work fine because the action, only get higher way up the neck. You might need to do some shims in the dovetail and get things in order. All in all this is not at all a typical repair that you know the steps.

[garybaldy]

@garybaldy

This is a nylon string guitar, so unfortunately no truss rod. I think even if I removed all of the frets above the 12th that the strings would still not clear the hump.

As I wrote earlier, this guitar has no monetary value, it is just a piece of family history so I thought it would be rewarding to bring it back to life myself if possible.

Your photo of the neck looking from the nut towards the heel gives the impression that the neck from the nut to the 12th fret has an upward bow and the neck from the 12th to the end of the fretboard is falling away. Is that not the case? You should hold a string down on to the 1st and 12th frets and measure the gap between the string and the fret at the mid point. Ideally it should be around 0.008". If it's greater than that, without having truss rod adjustment, the neck would need to straightened either by heat or compression fretting or planing. It's not worth doing anything else if that part of the neck isn't straight.

[Question]

Thanks for all of the ideas, really helpful.

I returned home with the guitar and now have my tools to work with.

It is not quite as bad as I thought, and my assumption about the fingerboard being raised above the 12th fret is not quite correct.

The 13th fret is extremely high and gives the illusion that the upper fingerboard is raised when in fact it is not.

Also, the neck has far too much relief (.53mm!) at the fifth fret.

As to all of the discussion regarding the neck angle; this weird string angle in the photos is really due to the 3.0 mm (not .3mm!) shim under the bridge. If I remove the shim the string action is very low, and of course frets out at the very high 13th fret.

What I cannot judge is if the middle neck bow can be corrected by fret leveling alone, or if the fingerboard will still need to be planed.

What do you pros think? Here is a photo from the neck measurement.

[garybaldy]

Thanks for all of the ideas, really helpful.

I returned home with the guitar and now have my tools to work with.

It is not quite as bad as I thought, and my assumption about the fingerboard being raised above the 12th fret is not quite correct.

The 13th fret is extremely high and gives the illusion that the upper fingerboard is raised when in fact it is not.

Also, the neck has far too much relief (.53mm!) at the fifth fret.

As to all of the discussion regarding the neck angle; this weird string angle in the photos is really due to the 3.0 mm (not .3mm!) shim under the bridge. If I remove the shim the string action is very low, and of course frets out at the very high 13th fret.

What I cannot judge is if the middle neck bow can be corrected by fret leveling alone, or if the fingerboard will still need to be planed.

What do you pros think? Here is a photo from the neck measurement.

I thought that looked the case! Exactly as my Hofner was but I was lucky to have an adjustable truss rod. Experts?

[deacon Mark]

I would heat the neck with an iron and apply a clamp to raise the relief of the neck a little. Leave it clamped for 24 hours and see what the relief does and shows. It does not have to be hot only warm really nothing to melt glue just enough to cause some expansion as you tighten the clamp. I have jig for this but easy to make one with two block of wood and Jorgenson clamp in middle of neck.

I would avoid taking the neck off with relatively not a huge problem to take out in a fret leveling. The other option is to refret the guitar period causing a bit of backbow tension to straighten the neck. Use high frets and you can then level it out fine. To me this last option makes the most sense. In fact, if I was doing it, I would only put new frets in the middle of the neck say 4-10 and see if that takes out the bow with the compression fretting technique. Then just level the ones over the fingerboard extension t drop off to the bridge.

[Question]

I bought a fret-rocker and a simple fret file and repaired the Framus today.

The results were actually better than I expected.

I first glued the 13th fret, which was loose and then I managed to file the frets enough between the 11th and 15 fret, where everything was raised up, without planing the fingerboard or straightening the neck.



This took me quite a long time to measure, file, test and countless repeats.

In the end there is little to no fret-buzz. The action was too low so I ended up putting a 2mm shim under the bridge to raise it.

The low E is at 2,5mm at the 12th fret, the high E at 2,25mm, which feels about right since it is a short scale with very low string tension.

I will record and post a video tomorrow if I have time and if the new nylon strings have stretched out enough to be tuning-stable.

This was quite a learning experience for me, so thanks to those of you who offered advice.

[garybaldy]

I bought a fret-rocker and a simple fret file and repaired the Framus today.

The results were actually better than I expected.

I first glued the 13th fret, which was loose and then I managed to file the frets enough between the 11th and 15 fret, where everything was raised up, without planing the fingerboard or straightening the neck.



This took me quite a long time to measure, file, test and countless repeats.

In the end there is little to no fret-buzz. The action was too low so I ended up putting a 2mm shim under the bridge to raise it.

The low E is at 2,5mm at the 12th fret, the high E at 2,25mm, which feels about right since it is a short scale with very low string tension.

I will record and post a video tomorrow if I have time and if the new nylon strings have stretched out enough to be tuning-stable.

This was quite a learning experience for me, so thanks to those of you who offered advice.

Great work.
I found that with my hofner, the most worrying bit, the fret level operation, required a lot less sanding than expected. I thought some of the frets would almost disappear but there is still a healthy amount of each.

[Question]

Here is the newly repaired Framus with me playing the standard But Beautiful.

I like to play nylon and I have a fine instrument, but this folk-nylon is so different with its very narrow neck, which makes it quite a challenge for me to play cleanly.

I was planning to do a before and after repair video, but the un-repaired guitar couldn't really be played at all due to it fretting out at the hump around the 12th fret.

[Question]

Great work.
I found that with my hofner, the most worrying bit, the fret level operation, required a lot less sanding than expected. I thought some of the frets would almost disappear but there is still a healthy amount of each.

Yes, I also worried a bit that I would need to file down the upper frets completely. In reality I removed about half of the fret material from the 13th to 16th; accepting that I might not be able to play above the 12th fret at all.

To my surprise I can play up the entire neck with almost no buzzing at all.

I also used a sanding block to even-out/polish all of the frets as well as blunting the sharp fret-edges with a file.

I think I just got lucky on this one as everything worked out better than expected.

I would never attempt this with my "real" instruments. There is a shop nearby with a Plek machine, so all of my serious instruments get taken care of there.