Wiring Question - Two-pickup Gibson vs Gretsch

[twtunes]

I have a new emulation of a Gretsch Falcon. It has the new to me setup of individual volumes, master volume, and master tone. Something about the impedance relationships makes the tone control act differently than on a Gibson like an SG or Les Paul. Has useful range of color.

Another question, though, is why this setup has the two volumes not loading each other. That is, when the selector is for both pickups I can turn one down all the way without turning off the other pickup. This is really useful, as I can have the treble pickup running, and mellow its sort of pinched tone by bringing in a small amount of neck pickup. This is trickier on my SG, and I am enjoying the new tonal control range.

Here's the wiring layout:



While I miss the "normal" response of my SG's tone control I am enjoying the difference. Here's the axe, a ten-string mandolin by Belvoir Guitars in England. It has a maple/sapele sandwich for the top, and the structure is the same as an ES 335, block under the pickups and bridge. Solid sapele back. Amazing sustain and dynamic range with no clipping or overdrive.

[Rodney Gene]

I have a new emulation of a Gretsch Falcon. It has the new to me setup of individual volumes, master volume, and master tone. Something about the impedance relationships makes the tone control act differently than on a Gibson like an SG or Les Paul. Has useful range of color.

Another question, though, is why this setup has the two volumes not loading each other. That is, when the selector is for both pickups I can turn one down all the way without turning off the other pickup. This is really useful, as I can have the treble pickup running, and mellow its sort of pinched tone by bringing in a small amount of neck pickup. This is trickier on my SG, and I am enjoying the new tonal control range.

Here's the wiring layout:



While I miss the "normal" response of my SG's tone control I am enjoying the difference. Here's the axe, a ten-string mandolin by Belvoir Guitars in England. It has a maple/sapele sandwich for the top, and the structure is the same as an ES 335, block under the pickups and bridge. Solid sapele back. Amazing sustain and dynamic range with no clipping or overdrive.

The difference in tone control response from the LP or SG likely has more to do with the treble bleed circuit here than pot values or cap values, being the wring is essential the same based on the diagram you posted. This is a 50's style vol/tone relationship where the tone control comes after the vol and the center lug (wiper) is used on the tone control. If your SG is a 60s wiring/modern wiring it will have the tone control before the volume and that can greatly affect the relationship between vol/tone and tone control response or perceived usefulness as it can get muddy quickly. This looks like a bit of a mix of both as the master volume is using treble bleed to avoid much tone loss as well.

As for the vol/vol relationship and each volume affecting the other when the switch is in the middle position, that is a result of the pickups being electrically wired in parallel in the middle position, which is common. They can short each other to ground in some popular old school wiring. In this case, it looks to be wired with both pickups hot wired to the volume wiper (center lug), and with the master volume/tone between the output jack and switch. As long as the master volume is up, both pickups will work independently, though they are still essentially wired in parallel when in the middle switch position.

Nice score and congrats.

[twtunes]

Thanks for the info.

My other emando, an SG emulation with Gibson switching, has tone pots for each volume, shorting to ground through the cap. Would not say "before" the volume, more like parallel.

When shipped, the Falcon did not have the treble bleed on the master volume. I added one after seeing this diagram. That did not change the behavior of the master tone, but did improve the value of the master volume.

My expectation is passive treble rolloff acts at about 6db/octave, from maybe 800 Hz. When audio taper, the effect was subtle but useful, and went full dark tone at 0 position. The master tone on the Falcon, with standard capacitor, seems to reduce volume more than high end, because its cutoff frequency sounds more like 400 Hz.

But in some settings, depending on the pup and master volumes, the tone control is a useful midrange scoop, yielding a more transparent tone. In some relationships, the master acts as a bass cut, the treble bleed dominating. And at full volume it feels like a bass boost. ((My 1975 Travis Bean acted that way with a treble bleed on the volume.) The master tone can yield that Metheny dark with clarity in some settings, but so can the high end loss from rolled off pup volume and mater turned up.

Between the three pots, a wide range of tones is possible, but it's taking me a while to learn the system to be quick at finding my setting.

[Rodney Gene]

My expectation is passive treble rolloff acts at about 6db/octave, from maybe 800 Hz. When audio taper, the effect was subtle but useful, and went full dark tone at 0 position. The master tone on the Falcon, with standard capacitor, seems to reduce volume more than high end, because its cutoff frequency sounds more like 400 Hz. ...

....My expectation is passive treble rolloff acts at about 6db/octave, from maybe 800 Hz. When audio taper, the effect was subtle but useful, and went full dark tone at 0 position. The master tone on the Falcon, with standard capacitor, seems to reduce volume more than high end, because its cutoff frequency sounds more like 400 Hz....

Gotcha - It acts more like a volume control because of the 50s wiring scheme. It will always be the case, but it gives you independent volumes. This is why there is no standard, there is a trade off for each. Finding your way around to the sweet spot tones for your style of play takes a bit of experimentation as you are doing. The treble bleed circuit on the volume will certainly affect the tone control response (and vol control) if the volume is anywhere but full, even then it is noticeable to alot of players, myself included. I have made 50-60 treble bleed circuits with varying values over the years. I have paired down to about 25 guitars right now and use treble bleeds very sparingly on only 3 guitars. In other words, they are worth experimenting, but they don't always benefit. As for the stated cutoff frequency, a guitars tone control is a passive variable LPF. The cutoff frequency changes as you roll the potentiometer, as does the dB/octave. If you wanted very specific cutoff point to start with, you would need massive experimentation and alot of data as the pickup itself will affect the outcome. And still the cutoff would be variable and change as you rolled it down.