Lowering action on a classical guitar

[EarlBrother]

Can you reset a neck on a classical guitar to lower the action when there is no room to sand down the bridge or nut.Its a 1969 Garcia 1a 1969.Beautiful wood, solid and sound but its way over 1/4 inch.So is there an estimate on cost to shim the neck up or would that not work?

[RJVB]

AFAIK neck resets are not just possible but also relatively common on older instruments of sufficient quality to justify the cost.

[Alter]

You can also have a luthier strap the guitar, and over a period of a few hours they heat the neck and gradually clam it backwards. But obviously they have to know how to do the procedure. It does work.

A lot depends on what the problem is, neck angle, or a bowed neck?

[Jimmy blue note]

A classical guitar is built with an integral chin/heel block that glues to the neck and back. There is no resetting.
On a classical guitar there are two options in general: You can make some adjustments at the nut and bridge, but since you have run those to the limit, the neck is your next option.

Before I go any further, I'll say that many wider market nylon guitars (Like Yamaha, Gibson, Guild, etc) use tongue in groove that allows for the neck to be removed, traditional construction, even in lower priced student models, are of one unit; the sides are literally set into the neck/chin assembly.

If you have a guitar with an integral chin, you'll know because you'll see the "foot" of the neck clearly in the soundhole. In this case, I'm afraid as a luthier, I'd tell you that a fingerboard re-plane would be the way to counteract the neck that has pulled up over time.
That means pull the frets, plane the neck back to a straight plane, reslot and refret. That's the way it's done on classical guitars.

But if the advice given otherwise works for you, go for it. It'd be cheaper. I speak from the perspective of a luthier, my first apprenticeship was with a classical builder so that's the world I know and archtops, which are kind of the opposite.

Good luck

[EarlBrother]

Wow thanks i will look into all the above i understand there are some players that want high action but not anyone i know lol.Thanks !!!!!I

[Stringswinger]

A classical guitar is built with an integral chin/heel block that glues to the neck and back. There is no resetting.
On a classical guitar there are two options in general: You can make some adjustments at the nut and bridge, but since you have run those to the limit, the neck is your next option.

Before I go any further, I'll say that many wider market nylon guitars (Like Yamaha, Gibson, Guild, etc) use tongue in groove that allows for the neck to be removed, traditional construction, even in lower priced student models, are of one unit; the sides are literally set into the neck/chin assembly.

If you have a guitar with an integral chin, you'll know because you'll see the "foot" of the neck clearly in the soundhole. In this case, I'm afraid as a luthier, I'd tell you that a fingerboard re-plane would be the way to counteract the neck that has pulled up over time.
That means pull the frets, plane the neck back to a straight plane, reslot and refret. That's the way it's done on classical guitars.

But if the advice given otherwise works for you, go for it. It'd be cheaper. I speak from the perspective of a luthier, my first apprenticeship was with a classical builder so that's the world I know and archtops, which are kind of the opposite.



Good luck

I have also heard that in addition to the planing method and the heat method that some Classical guitar luthiers remove and shim the fretboard to get things straight. Doing that allows the guitar to get a new, higher saddle which has some benefits.

[gitman]

I have also heard that in addition to the planing method and the heat method that some Classical guitar luthiers remove and shim the fretboard to get things straight. Doing that allows the guitar to get a new, higher saddle which has some benefits.

In any case things will be much easier if
the joints have been glued with hide glue …. with such an older piece you might be lucky !

[Jimmy blue note]

In any case things will be much easier if
the joints have been glued with hide glue …. with such an older piece you might be lucky !

The trouble with hide glue, once it's been applied, it disappears. It's very hard to detect its presence. You need to look very carefully. Hide and seek.

[Mick-7]

The trouble with hide glue, once it's been applied, it disappears. It's very hard to detect its presence. You need to look very carefully. Hide and seek.

Just make sure you read the label carefully before buying. Once I mistakenly bought Hyde glue, made by the Jekyll Formulas company, I was not at all happy with the result - in fact it frightened me.

[RJVB]

The trouble with hide glue, once it's been applied, it disappears.

Ohhhh, now I understand why it's called that way!

I guess the swinger's suggestion could work too ... straighten the fretboard and shim it to bring it closer to the strings, possibly after putting back in a saddle of normal height. You'd get an elevated fingerboard as a bonus.

@Jimmy: would there be any interest to installing a reinforcement bar or even a trussrod, when you have the fingerboard off anyway? I can't escape the feeling that with a design where the nut has to be higher than the saddle the collapsing won't be slowed if the nut has started raising and you compensate for that by shimming the fretboard rather than straightening (aka resetting) the neck?!

[Jimmy blue note]

Ohhhh, now I understand why it's called that way!

I guess the swinger's suggestion could work too ... straighten the fretboard and shim it to bring it closer to the strings, possibly after putting back in a saddle of normal height. You'd get an elevated fingerboard as a bonus.

@Jimmy: would there be any interest to installing a reinforcement bar or even a trussrod, when you have the fingerboard off anyway? I can't escape the feeling that with a design where the nut has to be higher than the saddle the collapsing won't be slowed if the nut has started raising and you compensate for that by shimming the fretboard rather than straightening (aka resetting) the neck?!

Right. There is something to making the neck more stable. A truss rod is something I personally don't feel is appropriate though. Truss rods are necessary to counteract the pull of steel strings but that's MANY times the pull of nylon, and I don't like that kind of mass in a light mahogany neck. Usually the strength of an ebony fingerboard, if it's true and thoroughly dried, is enough to counteract the pull of the strings. Also not uncommon is the use of an ebony centre strip in the neck, a 3 piece mahogany/ebony laminate. I've seen this used very successfully in Japanese classical builders and high end Spanish guitars. But to your point about the truss rod, a better solution IMHO would be a graphite rod. Graphite inlayed into a neck has a strength to weight ratio greater than any wood and even steel, yet it doesn't add resonances and has an expansion coefficient similar to wood. Cut a channel that will allow a graphite rod to be set on its side, then the fingerboard will lie on it. You'll have a neck that's not going anywhere.
I've used graphite and honestly sometimes it's TOO strong for a steel string, not allowing for the pull of the neck needed to impart relief, but in a classic, that's not really an issue since classical players don't use super low action.

Carbon fiber (graphite) rods come in different sizes, and you can be minimal in a classical. I never lay them vertically myself, and keep it far from anything that might expose it, because the stuff cannot be cut. I once ran a band saw through exposed carbon fiber and threads of TINY threads flew off, one hair thin piece went clear through my finger (OWCH!!!), so know it's not wood. But it's a modern technical wonder.
An added consideration with installing carbon Fiber rods is it would be a subtractive process (rather than an additive shimming one) and you can reduce the thickness of the neck for a faster neck while, with the rod) end up with a stronger neck. But additive or subtractive, it's your choice and something to think about.

Hope this gives you something to consider. I think StewMac has the stuff. I love it and I'd chose it over a truss rod for a classical myself.

Obviously ignore the presence of the truss rod in these illustrations, they're for a carbon fiber reenforced steel string.

[Alter]

I've seen classicals with super low action, but they tend to be uncommon. The actual usage of the guitar has to be considered. For example i have a hybrid electric classical with a truss rod and super low action. It's great for Brazilian and Jazz music that I mostly play on it (with lots of chords, some barre, legato etc, the jazz way of using a fretboard).

My actual classical has a bit of higher action (and a wider nut), cause on classical you mostly play single lines with simpler accompaniment, arpeggios, counterpoint, mostly pluck all notes etc. You need the definition and clearness of higher action. So for my hybrid a have two sets of bone nut and bridge pieces, and use the higher ones if I ever have to play classical type arrangements.

[RJVB]

I for one am grateful for the trussrod in my "neo-classical". Without it I would have had to get a higher nut straight away because the thing was unplayable with what I got as a "classical set-up" from TFOA.

Funny also that one of the arguments you'll get on "real" CG forum against using steel string acoustics is that the use of polyphony and in particular bar chords in classical music would require too much force from holding certain strings down while moving other fingers. The few written-out jazz pieces I've played to date (including 1 or 2 by Jonathan Stout) are indeed tiresome for the left hand too but in a less dangerous way as they mostly allow to release the entire hand between chords.

[Stringswinger]

My Classical has an action that cannot be lowered and is at the limit of where I like it. It was made in 1982 and had had one heat session 20 years ago and it may need another heat session before I check out of this lifetime (I may opt for the shimmed fingerboard method, we will see). I sometimes wish it did have a trussrod, but I know that would affect both the guitar's balance and it's tone. So at some point, it either gets major surgery or it is off to the sauna bath.

[deacon Mark]

I just don't see the problem with adding thickness to fingerboard. Remove the FB and then put in another piece of same wood on the neck and reglue the fb. That would be the easiest and most permanent solution.

[Stringswinger]

I just don't see the problem with adding thickness to fingerboard. Remove the FB and then put in another piece of same wood on the neck and reglue the fb. That would be the easiest and most permanent solution.

That is way more expensive than the heat treatment, but is a better solution for sure.

[Rickco]

Man you guys really got me going! Ive been looking at a classical someone gave me thats a very poor quality old student model coming apart. Backs coming off, necks bowed but not twisted, all solid woods (mahog & spruce ) and it will require correction for neck angle. This post got it on the bench. The only small problem is although I spent many years as a cabinetmaker I never work on my guitars as its a specialty I have no knowledge of (thats why I come here). I really want to dive in to this guitar as I have nothing to loose and if I can make it playable the next thing is to see if I can make it into a Tres. Im sure this is not hide glue, its old but looks like "titebond". looking for a nudge in the direction to finding these things out, old, very not web savy, only come here, can handle youtube probably next stop. suggestions welcome I follow all you guys. The pictures really helped and Jimmy BNs info my starting point.
Thanks

[Woody Sound]

I just don't see the problem with adding thickness to fingerboard. Remove the FB and then put in another piece of same wood on the neck and reglue the fb. That would be the easiest and most permanent solution.

Yes, BUT: It would make the neck profile a bit "chunkier." That might or might not matter to a given person.

[Jimmy blue note]

I've seen classicals with super low action, but they tend to be uncommon. .

Flamenco music demands a low action and the music even incorporates the effects caused by low action. While traditionally white in colour (cypress) there are flamenco guitars with tuning machines and built with rosewood, flamenco negro, that have low action but many of the traits of a classical guitar.
I see lower action in flamenco guitars and Brazilian guitars, sometimes refered to as choro guitar, and that music is a lot more eclectic and accepting of "non traditional" specs.

[RJVB]

Flamenco music demands a low action and the music even incorporates the effects caused by low action.

Yet not long ago I came across a YT video by a Spanish builder explaining that until relatively recently there was really only a single type of Spanish/classical guitar that was used to play both styles.

[Alter]

In Spain, hybrid classical/flamenco guitars are very popular, instruments that are somehow between the two genres and can handle both (mostly darker voiced Flamenco guitars that is).