Brace repair on new (to me) guitar - how does this look?

[chris32895]

If anyone has been on the Guitar, Gears, & Gizmos thread for the Epiphone Zephyr Regent you might have seen this, but I'm posting here as it's a bit more relevant.

Got this guitar in yesterday and when taking an endoscope to the inside found the treble-side bracing seems to have been broken at some point but was repaired. Pics were done before stringing the instrument up but I did take a look inside after stringing up with a set of 11's and the brace did not seem to have shifted. Top is not warped at all, sound does not seem affected (guitar is pretty good sounding, actually), and I am not seeming to get any weird buzzes that would indicate a loose brace.

My concern at this point is the longevity of the instrument, i.e. will this repair survive some years of playing and/or higher gauge strings? I can still return the instrument (I did NOT know about this brace issue before purchasing) or I could keep it. If I kept it I'd just want to be fairly sure the brace repair is solid.

[AllanAllen]

Send a message to MCampellone or deacon Mark. I honestly wouldn't trust anyone else's opinion on this. As far as I know, they are the only resident lutihiers.

[chris32895]

Yeah we'll see if they want to chime in. Didn't pay a ton, guitar sounds pretty good, and the brace has not moved so I may just live with it. I did reach out to the shop saying I'm disappointed it did not come in the condition they described so maybe they'll throw something my way to make up for it.

[AllanAllen]

I would ping them in a private message. MCampellone runs the Campellone guitar company, so it's possible he's going to miss the thread.

I can't see if there is glue on it, but I have heard that a woodglue bond is stronger than the natural wood. So my HIGHLY UNINFORMED opinion is, if it works now it'll probably keep working.

[chris32895]

On the part where it has a visible crack there is wood glue on it. It's hard to take a picture with the endoscope I have and the quality isn't the best

[Jimmy blue note]

Do you know anything about who did the repair? The work looks neat and cleanly done but the damage does look substantial. It it was done by a skilled luthier, glue worked in deeply, clamped solidly and set, there's no reason that guitar won't give you many years of solid use. It's a laminate top and that's about the worst thing that can result from a top trauma.
While you're at it, check the neck join and any tell tale finish checks at the headstock join/nut area. Massive trauma damage is not always localized.

Honestly, it's always hard to tell if something was done properly without knowing the full story. Done well, it's going to be fine. If it's improperly glued, it's not easy to tell from looking deeper at the internal fracture join.
Personally, if the guitar feels fine, has good geometry (action not too high or too low) and there's no damage to the laminations or plies, I would not worry.

I'm only a seasoned luthier but I've seen these types of damages and repaired many in my day. The grain splits are long, lateral for the most part and it's on a laminated top.
My vote is for playing it with confidence. Did the person who sold it to you know anything about this? It's serious enough to have warranted mention at the time of the sale.

My opinion. Good luck

[AllanAllen]

I knew I was forgetting a third luthier.

[chris32895]

Do you know anything about who did the repair? The work looks neat and cleanly done but the damage does look substantial. It it was done by a skilled luthier, glue worked in deeply, clamped solidly and set, there's no reason that guitar won't give you many years of solid use. It's a laminate top and that's about the worst thing that can result from a top trauma.
While you're at it, check the neck join and any tell tale finish checks at the headstock join/nut area. Massive trauma damage is not always localized.

Honestly, it's always hard to tell if something was done properly without knowing the full story. Done well, it's going to be fine. If it's improperly glued, it's not easy to tell from looking deeper at the internal fracture join.
Personally, if the guitar feels fine, has good geometry (action not too high or too low) and there's no damage to the laminations or plies, I would not worry.

I'm only a seasoned luthier but I've seen these types of damages and repaired many in my day. The grain splits are long, lateral for the most part and it's on a laminated top.
My vote is for playing it with confidence. Did the person who sold it to you know anything about this? It's serious enough to have warranted mention at the time of the sale.

My opinion. Good luck

OK so I did message the shop and they gave me a call back. They admitted it was their mistake for not checking, but the rest of the instrument is so clean (it looks essentially new) that they didn't think to check any braces. There is no indication of impact anywhere on the guitar or anything of that sort and it is not creaky, flexy, and sounds pretty good. I see where they are coming from. They did say they would make it right with either a paid return/refund or partial refund if I keep the instrument.

They called the original owner (I'm getting the vibe that the instrument was sold on consignment) asking about the brace issue and he was not aware of any bracing issue whatsoever. The shop says he's a frequent customer and pretty well known/liked in the area so they have little reason to doubt him. The shop owner seems pretty knowledgeable and speculates that because a while back the guitar got upgraded electronics, he thinks the person who did the work most likely had their hand on the top and put a little too much pressure on there and so it cracked at which point they must have repaired that brace without the original owner knowing. The shop owner also tried to call the place that did those upgrades/repair but they are no longer in business (I wonder why. Side note: the lead for the new pickup had blue painters tape running along it, pretty weird). The upgrades/repair were done back in '05 (the original invoice was in the case) so if this theory is true that means the top has been stable close to 20 years.

I called a local luthier asking if they'd take a look at the repair job and tell me if it's stable at all, but he has ethical qualms with critiquing another's work and says he'd prefer not to. I'm getting some work done on a classical probably this next week and might bring the archtop along and ask him one more time, if it's even worth the trouble.

Thanks again to everyone for all the inputs.

[chris32895]

Also forgot to mention, action is fairly low, could be a little lower. Might need a fret dressing but I am satisfied with how it plays. The distance from the top to the strings resting in the saddles is 1" equally for all strings, maybe a little lower.

[garybaldy]

OK so I did message the shop and they gave me a call back. They admitted it was their mistake for not checking, but the rest of the instrument is so clean (it looks essentially new) that they didn't think to check any braces. There is no indication of impact anywhere on the guitar or anything of that sort and it is not creaky, flexy, and sounds pretty good. I see where they are coming from. They did say they would make it right with either a paid return/refund or partial refund if I keep the instrument.

They called the original owner (I'm getting the vibe that the instrument was sold on consignment) asking about the brace issue and he was not aware of any bracing issue whatsoever. The shop says he's a frequent customer and pretty well known/liked in the area so they have little reason to doubt him. The shop owner seems pretty knowledgeable and speculates that because a while back the guitar got upgraded electronics, he thinks the person who did the work most likely had their hand on the top and put a little too much pressure on there and so it cracked at which point they must have repaired that brace without the original owner knowing. The shop owner also tried to call the place that did those upgrades/repair but they are no longer in business (I wonder why. Side note: the lead for the new pickup had blue painters tape running along it, pretty weird). The upgrades/repair were done back in '05 (the original invoice was in the case) so if this theory is true that means the top has been stable close to 20 years.

I called a local luthier asking if they'd take a look at the repair job and tell me if it's stable at all, but he has ethical qualms with critiquing another's work and says he'd prefer not to. I'm getting some work done on a classical probably this next week and might bring the archtop along and ask him one more time, if it's even worth the trouble.

Thanks again to everyone for all the inputs.

It looks a great guitar. I would want to keep it. If you can get a partially refund that's great.
I would take it to a reputable luthier, not ask for a critique but ask him what needs to be done (if anything), get him to do the work and pay him. I would then cease worrying - I am a worrier!

[Jimmy blue note]

Also forgot to mention, action is fairly low, could be a little lower. Might need a fret dressing but I am satisfied with how it plays. The distance from the top to the strings resting in the saddles is 1" equally for all strings, maybe a little lower.

So I'll assume there's ample thread to allow adjustment up or down on the bridge posts, right?
The interaction you describe seems to indicate you're dealing with an honorable individual (shop) and the history of trouble free use speaks more than anything I could ever speculate; that's the true test.
I'd accept any compensation or adjustment they were offering since your assumption was for an untainted and issue-free factory integral instrument. But that's just me.

And judging another person's work as a professional giving professional commentary for a customer, there's no shame or ethical conflict there. A luthier's work is their calling card, they stand by it or they are responsible for their work. End of story. If it's not good, a knowledgeable luthier can help the customer by being honest and doing their best to assure the owner, through approval or through doing the work that will give the owner confidence to play and love that instrument. That's my job, as I see it.
I do work I won't be embarrassed by or that will endure under scrutiny. That's what an owner is owed and it's what keeps people coming back. Honesty, expertise, integrity, knowledge and love for the work. Your luthier can offer that even to the point of seeing your instrument as compromised but assuring that when it leaves the shop it will be reliably and practically perfect.

Right?

[lawson-stone]

This looks like a keeper. If it's been stable 20 years, I'd just play it and enjoy it.

[RJVB]

If nobody who did any work on this guitar and can still be contacted is aware of any brace issues, is it possible that this repair was in fact done at the factory? I can't help but notice how paint flowed inside; no idea how common that is but it seems sloppy. Could this have been a "factory second"?

If it's true what's said about wood-glue bonds, a properly done repair should leave the brace about just as strong as it was before breaking. Remember that the 2 halves of the top plate are also "just" glued together, and that join probably gets to endure a lot more stress than this brace repair!

I'd also accept the partial refund, play the guitar, and put the money aside in case I'd ever need to have that brace re-repaired. Seems close enough to the f-hole that that should be doable. If the shop where you bought the instrument is close enough you could even see if they agree to committing to have such a repair done for a decent fee should it ever be necessary within a reasonable lapse of time.

[Jimmy blue note]

If nobody who did any work on this guitar and can still be contacted is aware of any brace issues, is it possible that this repair was in fact done at the factory? I can't help but notice how paint flowed inside; no idea how common that is but it seems sloppy. Could this have been a "factory second"?

.

When I first read this, I thought "No way they'd have this kind of damage on a brand new guitar" but the next day I remembered working at Ibanez. We'd get guitars from all over the far east, from the docks to the truck and loaded to the warehouse distribution stacks. We'd be unloading, lifting sliding and tossing crates of guitars. On rare occasions, one would take a fall and the crated guitars (6 in a bundle each in its own shipping box) would smack onto the concrete floor.
That's why we meticulously inspected for any signs of damage and had a very long QC process; damage from a fall is traumatic and even in a packed overseas crate, it's enough to break braces.
Sometimes that bundle would go into the stacks and if the tech didn't look carefully inside, it could indeed hit the retail market with internal damage.
Usually we'd pull a fallen crate aside for close scrutiny but not always.
So yeah, it might have even been damaged in transit. It happens, even "brand new". And if it was lucky enough to have been spotted, it would have been pulled immediately and branded/stamped with an "S" punch at the headstock.
I can only relate what the procedure was at Ibanez and their distribution is unique (and good). For an Epi, I don't know if they use a centralized clearing house with a comprehensive post shipping QC facility. Obviously in that scenario, a shipping trauma would tend not to be addressed in the same way.
This is an internal breach and as you know, not apparent unless you either hear something amiss, notice wonky action of use an endoscope at the time of purchase.

Overall though, I'd consider it a relatively safe repaired buy, but have the seller adjust the guitar as if it were being sold as a seriously broken, but repaired second.

[RJVB]

I really meant at the factory. As in, the brace broke for whatever reason, possibly because it was machine-made from a board that already had the beginnings of a crack or a weak spot that had been close to a knot or whatever. If I look at that brace I see something that doesn't look like it could never have been made out of crate wood, if you know what I mean.
With the sort of production process they probably have going on in those far-east factories, would it really be inconceivable that this broken or cracked brace wouldn't have been used with additional glue in the right places, esp. if time and effort had already been spent to mate it to the top? (Or, if these tops are arched by glueing them under constraint onto preformed braces that'd be another possible cause for breakage?!)

[MCampellone]

My first thought is that an impact strong enough to crack a top brace would probably have left some visible damage on the exterior of the guitar, and apparently there isn't any - makes me think the brace was damaged and repaired at the factory before the guitar was completely assembled. Also supporting that idea, there isn't a mess of glue around the break - can't imagine this type of repair turning out that clean if the only access was through the f-hole -

[Jimmy blue note]

My first thought is that an impact strong enough to crack a top brace would probably have left some visible damage on the exterior of the guitar, and apparently there isn't any - makes me think the brace was damaged and repaired at the factory before the guitar was completely assembled. Also supporting that idea, there isn't a mess of glue around the break - can't imagine this type of repair turning out that clean if the only access was through the f-hole -

That makes sense Mark, but that's overlooking the fact that at the factory, it's way too easy not to use that top at all, simply toss it and not repair where there'd be a very possibility of not getting full retail as a "second". The time when the braces are joined (pressed) to the top is pretty early on...in the white; that's when I'd guess damage like this would occur. Way too easy to toss that top, or even remove it completely, run a chisel down the join and put the top back in the queue for a second run. In my time at Ibanez, many guitars with less serious damage were instantly pulled off the QC line and scrapped completely, depending on the type of damage.
Yes that's a neat repair, but I've done work that's just as neat as that as working through the pickup hole on an inverted guitar on a bench allows easy access, even to clean up. I've used a brace jack and caul arrangement to assure clean repairs that were even virtually undetectable and certainly sound as far as overall strength.
I will note that as an Ibanez employee I never would have been allowed to do such extensive repairs. The reason? It's simply not cost efficient. A guitar has a very well calculated labour/materials calculus to be competitive in the wholesale market. Repairs at the factory stage are wasteful, risk damage to the reputation (as a guitar that hits retail as damaged goods is devastating to a brand's reputation), and honestly, a lot cheaper to destroy. There are no seconds that ever leave a factory without serious indication in the stamped serial number.

That's my experience from working on the inside (pun intended). You know. You're at the top of the game in your own business. If you detected a fatal flaw in an incomplete guitar on the bench, something someone could undeniably cite as defective workmanship, you'd never "fix it" on the assembly line and pass it off as pristine. Or at least I would never.

We had an adage that you must know. An apprentice makes mistakes. A journeyman makes mistakes and learns how to hide them. A master doesn't make mistakes.
Much of a guitar's reputation depends on providing the appearance of a master's work.

Just my opinion though. I respect your assessment, Mark. All just speculation from this point in time.

[MCampellone]

That makes sense Mark, but that's overlooking the fact that at the factory, it's way too easy not to use that top at all, simply toss it and not repair where there'd be a very possibility of not getting full retail as a "second". The time when the braces are joined (pressed) to the top is pretty early on...in the white; that's when I'd guess damage like this would occur. Way too easy to toss that top, or even remove it completely, run a chisel down the join and put the top back in the queue for a second run. In my time at Ibanez, many guitars with less serious damage were instantly pulled off the QC line and scrapped completely, depending on the type of damage.
Yes that's a neat repair, but I've done work that's just as neat as that as working through the pickup hole on an inverted guitar on a bench allows easy access, even to clean up. I've used a brace jack and caul arrangement to assure clean repairs that were even virtually undetectable and certainly sound as far as overall strength.
I will note that as an Ibanez employee I never would have been allowed to do such extensive repairs. The reason? It's simply not cost efficient. A guitar has a very well calculated labour/materials calculus to be competitive in the wholesale market. Repairs at the factory stage are wasteful, risk damage to the reputation (as a guitar that hits retail as damaged goods is devastating to a brand's reputation), and honestly, a lot cheaper to destroy. There are no seconds that ever leave a factory without serious indication in the stamped serial number.

That's my experience from working on the inside (pun intended). You know. You're at the top of the game in your own business. If you detected a fatal flaw in an incomplete guitar on the bench, something someone could undeniably cite as defective workmanship, you'd never "fix it" on the assembly line and pass it off as pristine. Or at least I would never.

We had an adage that you must know. An apprentice makes mistakes. A journeyman makes mistakes and learns how to hide them. A master doesn't make mistakes.
Much of a guitar's reputation depends on providing the appearance of a master's work.

Just my opinion though. I respect your assessment, Mark. All just speculation from this point in time.

All points well taken, JBN - just thought it odd that there's no exterior evidence of any impact strong enough to crack a brace - well, like you said, just speculation.
Btw, if anyone contacts me about brace repair, I'll refer them to you - sounds like you're better at it than I am

[Jimmy blue note]

Btw, if anyone contacts me about brace repair, I'll refer them to you - sounds like you're better at it than I am

Hunting down rattles, getting rid of electrical hums, making exact duplicates of someone else's work because someone is looking for a way not to pay full price... Yup. These are reasons why they invented the words "Not me. But I know somebody really good who'd love to do it!"
Ha
I should stop by and say hello one of these days. I just moved to CT.

[chris32895]

Thanks to everyone who responded! I've decided to keep the guitar. It is just a great playing guitar for a price that I'll probably never seen again so I don't think it makes sense to get rid of it. I did take the guitar to a luthier who did a couple checks pressing the top and looked at the pictures on here and he signed off on it, agreeing with many of you who said the brace was likely damaged at the factory. Perhaps the person who installed the Gibson '57 did the damage and repaired it, but in either case the brace is glued and has been solid for around 20 years.