Piano tuning

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm happy that I achieved tuning my piano correctly. I'm thinking about going to work tuning pianos. Wondering if anyone has any forethought on this.

I'm using the PianoMeter app. It sets the temperament and the ideal stretch for the individual piano. You just need the technique to hit that mark with 1 string. Then you tune the unisons aurally. If you try to tune the unisons with only the app, they can all be in the same 1 cent range but still be off from each other. You can use it as a guide, but you still have to use your ear to find where the unison is pure. Apparently, pro piano tuners use apps. Although there are still aural tuners out there.

Here is the read out of my piano. It stretches the treble 31 cents sharp and the bass 50 cents flat. The stretch is most extreme for a spinet. I think the bass sounds bad ass.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I would not let someone tune my piano who needs an app instead of being able to use his/her ears.

[Bobby Timmons]

Can you not read? You're still required to use your ears with the app.

You tune the unisons aurally. If you try to tune the unisons with only the app, they can all be in the same 1 cent range but still be off from each other(, and will still result in an out sounding note). You can use it as a guide, but you still have to use your ear to find where the unison is pure.

You also use your ear to check the piano when you're finished. Both all the unisons, and playing through all the chords to make sure everything sounds pleasing and nothing is off. Piano tuners say good unisons are the backbone of a good tuning job. The intervals are important too, but if the unisons are all perfect, that's a lot of what makes a tuning sound great.

Many pro tuners use apps these days. Aural tuning will always be a quality standard, but that method doesn't have a monopoly on quality.

Another thing is that a piano only really holds its tune perfectly for about a week, 2 at the most. So an exquisite tuning will only sound that way for a week or 2, and then it will just sound average (or bad) for the majority of its lifespan. So top notch tuning jobs are only needed for elite situations like concert halls or recording studios. Tuning a random old lady's piano or some practice room pianos with an app is totally satisfactory. As they're never going to be in perfect tune anyway, being tuned every several months.

A tech who runs a piano tech school's views on app vs aural:

The bot's breakdown:

Do you know about what proportion of pro piano tuners use an app vs aurally? Is it observable which method is superior? And could you break down the pros and cons of each method?

ChatGPT said:

The use of apps versus aural tuning among professional piano tuners varies, and the preference for one method over the other is often influenced by the tuner's training, experience, and personal preference. Here’s a breakdown of the current landscape, along with the pros and cons of each method:

Proportion of Pro Piano Tuners Using Apps vs. Aural Tuning

• Aural Tuning: Traditionally, a significant number of professional piano tuners have relied on aural tuning, which is the process of tuning a piano by ear, without electronic aids. However, the percentage has likely decreased with the advent of high-quality tuning apps and devices.
• Tuning Apps: In recent years, a growing number of professional tuners have adopted the use of tuning apps or electronic tuning devices (ETDs). Estimates suggest that a substantial portion, perhaps up to 50% or more, of professional tuners now use some form of digital assistance, though this varies widely by region and specific tuning community.

Observing Which Method is Superior

• Skill-Dependent: The superiority of one method over the other is highly dependent on the skill and experience of the tuner. A highly skilled aural tuner can produce results just as precise as those achieved with a tuning app.
• Blended Approach: Many professional tuners use a hybrid approach, relying on a tuning app for the initial rough tuning or setting the temperament, and then fine-tuning by ear. This allows them to leverage the precision of technology while ensuring the final tuning is musically satisfying.

Pros and Cons of Aural Tuning

Pros:

• Musicality: Aural tuning allows the tuner to focus on the musical intervals and how they sound in context, often resulting in a more pleasing, natural sound.
• Flexibility: Aural tuners can make adjustments based on the specific piano and its unique characteristics, leading to a more personalized tuning.
• No Dependence on Technology: Aural tuning doesn’t require batteries or devices, making it more reliable in any environment.

Cons:

• Time-Consuming: Aural tuning can be more time-consuming, especially for complex tunings.
• Learning Curve: It requires years of practice and experience to become proficient, which can be a barrier for new tuners.
• Subjectivity: Aural tuning can be subjective, leading to slight variations depending on the tuner’s ear and preference.

Pros and Cons of Tuning Apps

Pros:

• Precision: High-quality tuning apps can provide highly accurate pitch measurements, helping to achieve a precise tuning.
• Efficiency: Apps can speed up the tuning process, especially for less experienced tuners or when time is a factor.
• Consistency: Using an app can result in a more consistent tuning across different pianos, as it removes much of the subjectivity.

Cons:

• Over-Reliance: Tuners who rely too heavily on apps may miss out on the subtleties that an ear-focused approach can bring, potentially leading to a less musical result.
• Cost: Professional-grade tuning apps and ETDs can be expensive.
• Technology Dependence: Apps require functioning devices and batteries, which could be limiting in certain situations.

Conclusion

There isn't a clear "superior" method between aural tuning and using an app. Each has its strengths, and the best results often come from a combination of both. The most skilled tuners can adapt their approach to the needs of the piano and the preferences of the client, using their ears to make final adjustments that technology alone might not catch.

[kris]

I would not let someone tune my piano who needs an app instead of being able to use his/her ears.

My wife is a classical pianist. She once invited a professional piano-servisant. He used his ears, but he also messed around using a tuner...
I watched him tune pianos and I've done it myself several times - it's not difficult.
It's worse when you have to change a broken string - I can't do that on the piano.

[pauln]

I don't think the "unison" strings are intended to be absolute unison at the end of the actual process.
If you pursue the piano tuning I'd be interested in how the unisions are formally comparatively tuned to achieve the desired note's tone quality.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ The unisons are ideally intended to aurally sound at absolute unisons.

In practice, on the PianoMeter, you can get the strings to all be within 1 cent of each other and it can still sound like an out note. The fine tuning is more precise than that.

Further, each string's fundamental and harmonics have subtle wavering. You have to use your ear to find the best match. Tune below, then above, then find the most pure spot.

So measured with a tuning device, the strings will measure differently at the millicent level because of the natural variation. Aurally, you want them to sound identical, like how a digital piano sounds - 1 single pitch. But in reality you can't always get it like that. But that is the goal.

How to do this is you want to line up the harmonics so the unison note sounds the same or almost the same as 1 string.

Out to about 5 cents sharp or flat, the fundamental pitch can sound the same. You have to listen to all the harmonics to line them up exactly.

The 'sound envelope' can inform you about how in tune it is. A single string has a consistent rise and fall in volume from attack to decay. If the harmonics of unisons are off, they will phase with each other and create a pulsing effect in volume. A perfectly tuned unison will have a consistent rise and fall in volume like a bell.

Notice how at about 22 seconds it sounded like the same pitch, but that wasn't quite right? It wasn't right until he lined up the harmonics at about 29 seconds. They went from subtle phasing with each other and cancelling volume, to no phasing at all, all lining up, a volume boost, and a pure stable sound.

[AllanAllen]

I had a piano for a while, the guy who tuned it used a fork and did the rest by ear. It was amazing to hear him play, the best my piano ever sounded. All I ever learned was doorbell songs and when the saints go marching in.

[Bobby Timmons]

I had a piano for a while.

Oh yeah, what kind was it? Didn't want to keep it? It makes your house more jazzy to have a piano. Then your band mates can come play it.

The guy who tuned it used a fork and did the rest by ear.

Aural tuning is hardcore. I'm educating myself on the process. May as well. I think I'm good to go with tuning with the app.

It was amazing to hear him play, the best my piano ever sounded. All I ever learned was doorbell songs and when the saints go marching in.

At least you're past that on guitar.

[kris]

Many people use digital pianos where traditional tuning is unnecessary.
Weather conditions do not affect the tuning of such instruments.
All you need is electricity.
Then you have more time to practice and you don't think about the out-of-tune piano.
Technology is developing.

[AllanAllen]

Oh yeah, what kind was it? Didn't want to keep it? It makes your house more jazzy to have a piano. Then your band mates can come play it.

Aural tuning is hardcore. I'm educating myself on the process. May as well. I think I'm good to go with tuning with the app.

At least you're past that on guitar.

It was a Baldwin parlor piano. It belonged to my wife’s grandmother. Sister in law asked for it and my wife said sure. I guess she wanted the room, I wasn’t part of the conversation.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Well I guess the wife can do what she wants with it if it's her piano. I love Baldwin. It has the perfect combo of warmth but rich harmonics. Other pianos sound good to me but never have that perfect balance.

Many people use digital pianos where traditional tuning is unnecessary.
Weather conditions do not affect the tuning of such instruments.
All you need is electricity.
Then you have more time to practice and you don't think about the out-of-tune piano.
Technology is developing.

I like my digital piano. I can practice at 55 decibels instead of 75 and be completely inaudible to my neighbors. It is also a sinch to record direct and sounds great.

A main reason I avoided getting an acoustic piano was paying for tuning and having it be out of tune a lot of the time between tunings. Then I investigated and found out about the good tuning software and realized I would probably be able to keep it in pretty good tune all of the time. On top of that, I could even go to work tuning and make $$ if I learned it well. So that made me decide to get one.

I ended up really happy with the result of my tuning. Sounds completely in tune and great. I'll be able to keep it that way all the time which is a real luxury. Full tunings aren't even necessary after the initial rough and fine full tunings. Just do touch ups every week or 2.

kris, did you come back because of my joke while you were gone that I missed you calling me the theorist?

[supersoul]

I just bought an old full-size Kurzweil digital piano for €20.
It still weighs a shit ton. I can't move it myself without wheels.
There is a stretched tuning, for solo playing, and a regular chromatic one, for playing with other people. I honestly can't tell the difference yet.

[Bobby Timmons]

Well that's a pretty good price even though it weighs 500 pounds! That's cool it comes with a not stretched tuning for playing with others. I actually asked the bot how acoustic pianos blend with other instruments and he said mostly it's negligible since it's less than 1 hertz, but also some instruments can adjust pitch, and other reasons like it just sounds good.

Yeah I can hear the stretch. Both on my Yamaha digital and my Baldwin spinet. The Baldwin is stretched more because spinets have more inharmonicity. The treble is stretched 31 cents sharp and the bass is stretched 50 cents flat! I think it sounds really cool. You not only notice it at the extreme ends of the range but when you're only playing chords. It gives the sound a tension and a brilliance. I think my ear got sensitized to it from tuning. The Yamaha has less stretch because it's modeled after a grand which have less inharmonicity and therefor less stretch.

[Bobby Timmons]

Well my piano is in tune af. There is nothing left to practice tuning on. I'm going to work as a piano tuner. If someone will hire me lol.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Maybe it works out if you dress like Pepper the Bot while tuning pianos. So people would think their pianos are tuned by AI.

[Bobby Timmons]

Lol