Playing in an Organ Trio

[adrian335]

Do you have any tips for playing an organ trio? Are there any hints (or traps) on chord voicings and soloing in that format where the keyboard player is playing melody and bass line?

[m78w]

As far as chords are concerned most guys tend to take a "percussive" approach. Using more simple voicings, and sticking to one or two per chord chance, than one would in a normal trio setting. As for soloing all the normal "rules" apply.

Check out any of the Pat Martino recordings with Trudy Pitts, Joey Defrancesco and/or Jimmy Smith. As well as any Jimmy Smith albums with Wes Montgomery and/or Kenny Burrell for more inspiration.

MW

[jseaberry]

I agree with that, but I have found that you may have to brighten your tone if you are normally using a very dark, bass-y tone, as it is easy to get caught in the bottom end of the organ sound. Finding your space is tough, as you usually have drums, and the organ covers the basslines; there is a Mike's masterclass by Steve Herberman on "Chordal Riffs and Shout Choruses" that I attended that seems to fit the guitar's role in organ trios very well. You might like it.

[m78w]

The Steve Herberman class is excellent! It's definately worth the 29$ price tag, great video and excellent hand outs to accompany it.

MW

[derek]

Originally Posted by jseaberry

I agree with that, but I have found that you may have to brighten your tone if you are normally using a very dark, bass-y tone, as it is easy to get caught in the bottom end of the organ sound. Finding your space is tough, as you usually have drums, and the organ covers the basslines; there is a Mike's masterclass by Steve Herberman on "Chordal Riffs and Shout Choruses" that I attended that seems to fit the guitar's role in organ trios very well. You might like it.

Good call. I have thought about picking that one up. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Alan Kroeger]

Strange I was reading this topic when it first popped up but most of the appropriate suggestions were already posted. So I figured why just echo what others have already posted

But... I was going through my CD collection packing it up, cause I am moving, and discovered I had a copy of the Wes Montgomery Jimmy Smith team up "The Dynamic Duo". I popped it in for a listen to see what further useful comments could be added here.
THE INCREDIBLE JIMMY SMITH - The Dynamic Duo

One thing with this recording, and likely many other similar band configurations, is these two very strong players tend to stay out of each others way. Smith lays off heavy chording when Wes is comping and mostly he just does melodic shouts under him at a lowered volume and the same goes for Wes when Smith is playing chords.
In other tunes they have a brass section so both players simplify what they are playing so they can make the best use of the instrumentation.

So you might want to figure out how to not duplicate what an organist is playing. As in not play a lot of chords that overlap what the organist is playing if you are comping. Likewise the organist needs to figure out if they want you to comp and lay off burying you. They either want a guitar player playing or it might be better if you lay back or stay out if the organist wants to take over.

I would say it would be fun to play with an organist on a regular basis but you might need to figure out some cues between the two instrumentalist as to when to dive in and take over, when to just stay out, when to backup, and what kind of backups will be used at different moments.

Wes in this recording actually used a fairly bright tone which had a touch of overdrive or tube distortion and was fairly percussive in his comping.

That's about it but it could be a worthwhile recording to have if you want to hear how two dominant players work things out with each other.

[adrian335]

Hey Thank you for all yuor suggestions - I'll need to do some work to follow them.

[Frank Bechlarz]

Hi Adrian 335,
in Addition to the reply from m78w, there are some really amazing records with Pat Martino and Don Patterson on organ. My favorite album is These are soulful days. You can get it under the title Steady comin at YA (32Jazz). Some other record are Boppin ´n Burnin ( not available I guess ), Dem New York Dues or Just friends.I´ve never heard from a record, where Pat Martino played with Jimmy Smith. With Joy de Francesco Pat played Live at Yoshis and there is a video on You Tube where Pat playin Sunny with Joey de Francesco and John Scofield. Another real good CD is After the rain with John McLaughlin and Joey de Francesco and Elvin Jones. All of these CD´s are good examples how can I play with an organ player.

All the best

Frank

[m78w]

You're right Frank, I meant to write Don Patterson but must have had Jimmy on my mind!

Also if you're into the funk/soul side of jazz Medeski Martin and Wood as well as Soulive are great organ trios from that genre.

MW

[mr. beaumont]

grant green's records with organ players also come to mind as must listens, as does howard roberts' "hr is a dirty guitar player" ... for grant, "his majesty king funk" (while not a trio, but with larry young) seems to bring his comping to the front a bit more than on the blue note records...

when i've played with organ players, i've tended to use a brighter tone, and keep the voicings small and on the middle strings so that they "pop."

[Frank Bechlarz]

Another good organ band was Tony Williams Lifetime. Check out the title Big Nick. The organ player was Larry Young and for sure ( you are right Mr.Beaumont ) some Grant Green records with Larry Young. On the DVD from John Scofield "three ways Live" there two Tunes ( a Blues and a rhythm change Tune ) with Don Pullen on organ. Great Stuff.

Have a nice time
Frank

[Alan Kroeger]

Ah yes the talented Larry Young... died too young, too bad he really had some interesting ideas.
My introduction to his playing was the Miles Davis "Bitches Brew" album Jazz and Blues was in vogue with young rockers then. So getting started as a young lad in the late 60's - 70's got me and many others interested in the music and least capturing the sound and style of Jazz.

[gtr_5155]

Has anyone heard Joe Gloss' playing with Organissmo? Seems like he has added a modern touch to the staid organ trio.No disrespect to the old masters that we all love,but his sound and style seems to mix well without conflicting.

[m78w]

Joe Gloss is one of the best young guitarists around. I used to live in Kalamazoo and would go hear them at Bell's Brewery all the time. There's some great youtube videos of Organissimo, definately worth checking out.

MW

[yorg]

hi guys,
if you want a good full,rich sound in a trio try to pick up an old leslie box,with the revolving speaker and run your guitar through that.
sounds good solo too!
cheers yorg.

[m78w]

Ted Greene used a Leslie for his Solo album. They're great, just really big and expensive. But, and I could be wrong, but there is a pedal now that can imitate a Leslie.

MW

[mr. beaumont]

my buddy has a hughes and kettner tube rotosphere...about the best leslie simulation i've heard...but it ain't cheap (but very economical compared to a real leslie)

the Boss rotary speaker simulator is supposed to be quite good, and not too much moolah. i use an old Ross (not Boss) orange phaser and it's decent for that sound. charlie hunter used to use a ross before he went tube rotosphere...got to talk to him once and he was very cool about talking tone...the Ross' pop up on fleabay every now and then for under a hundred bones...

[Coda]

I find an important part of the Organ Trio is the comp. I play in an Organ Trio, albeit a little unconventional (organ/guitar/sax)....But I find that keep a good swinging comp really keeps everything together...My Organ player is a shredder too, so I find I need to play more conservatively to keep the balance...Sometimes I find that steady Quarter comps work the best....yet on other tunes, you really hafta make it swing.....