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Yeah, Catherine''s all over the map. But he can swing.
Metheny swing? If that Ornette tune on Bright Size...if you don't think that swings...well...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-26-2017 at 09:56 PM.
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03-26-2017 09:02 PM
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Catherine is very good.
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I've always dug Catherine, though mostly it has just been YouTube clips. Any good non-fusion/prog album recommendations?
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I used to listen to Coryell/Catherine Twin House a lot. 1977:
Originally Posted by Jehu
The same duo in 2011:
Last edited by KirkP; 03-27-2017 at 12:29 AM.
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So true. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I've heard and enjoyed Philip Catherine's playing in several contexts - mostly on vinyl (two particular favourites also have him playing an Ovation, along with Larry Coryell), but I hadn't seen him live (except on video, including with a teenage Birelli Lagrène). Originally Posted by NSJ
PM was on the Lenny Breau documentary put together by Breau's daughter, singng his high praises for being utterly unique in the jazz world. He asked Breau how he does his harmonics.
Never heard of this Catherine fellow, I'll check him out. Straight ahead, I presume. One does not use the words "properly swing" with the, ahem, avant-guarde types.
What I heard on Saturday - through an enormous PA, and played back via the desk on which it had been recorded - was unlike anything? I'd ever heard by Philip Catherine. (Or by Chet, who?se sound is so recognisable. But not only were the lines long, they were fast and clean. And not a crack - in either notes nor the proverbial eggshells?.) Catherine sounded similar to Billy Bean on Airegin, from The West Coast Sessions.Last edited by destinytot; 03-27-2017 at 05:43 AM.
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Found this. (Pepe's live recording sounds way better to me. EDIT The guitar sounded 'darker' and less 'jangly', and the soloing was stunningly good - which I can't say about the first track below. )
Last edited by destinytot; 03-27-2017 at 05:44 AM.
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Bought this on cassette when it came out: Originally Posted by KirkP
To me, Grapelli sounds particularly elegant on that last one. This is my favourite of the Coryell-Catherine collaborations (esp. @ 20:12):
Last edited by destinytot; 03-27-2017 at 06:19 AM.
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whatever...just give me Ed Bickert
Last edited by BFrench; 03-27-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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I'd be happy listening to him all day. Originally Posted by BFrench
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Since this has become a offshot Philip Catherine thread, I thought I'd share my favorites:
All in trio format--
I remember You (tribute to Baker with Tom Harrell)
Moods volume 1 and 2 (more Harrell)
The afforementioned Chet's Choice (and there's a few live discs from this era too, gotta dig 'em out, they're all good)
Something Different with Dexter Gordon is also a favorite
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Hmmm... I think it's.... good? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I can't help but feel that if I say anything I'll come across as someone who doesn't really think post fusion style jazz can swing, which I don't like as a sentiment, but I find it hard to think of counter examples.
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I'm not talking about the whole album:
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In terms of time-feel-swing, how do you compare, for example, Keith Jarrett's Standards Trio with his American Quartet/European Quartet groups from the 1970s? Originally Posted by christianm77
People say that bebop is the foundation of all modern jazz, but I think it's really two specific groups: Miles' 2nd Quintet and Keith's American Quartet (with Dewey/Paul Motian/Haden). Post functional harmony, abandonment for conventional Tin Pan Alley songform, a bit elastic conception of time, etc. To me, that's the foundation of "post fusion" modern jazz. Those two groups right there.
Keith's Standards Trio seems to be a retreat from that. But I think he, Jack and Gary swing for the fences (or in British parlance, aim for the boundary shots) within the conventional Tin Pan Alley songform, and they swing harder.
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Yeah it sounds good, it's a great solo. I mean I could get into the minutiae of it which which serve only to make me sound as if I believe I can play better than Metheny. No. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Metheny has great time.
Anyway I believe you could take this track as the manifesto for all the contemporary jazz guitar playing that has gone on in the past 40 years or so. Most players do indeed sound like him, and those who do not are trying not to sound like him.
His swing feel is to me the swing feel of contemporary jazz. Usually up tempo. Even. Cool. Lots of well placed relaxed eighth notes. Not dug in. No triplet embellishments.
Not much left of the dance music roots of jazz which you can still hear in Wes and Benson et al. But of course people are sick of Wes/Benson clones (so we listen to Pat clones instead.)
What does Pat sound like at medium swing tempo? Can he swing without double time, etc?
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Ever hear Humpty Dumpty from "Rejoicing?" More midtempo.
I get what you're saying about "dug in," but I don't think that's a necessary element to swing. Jimmy Raney never sounds like he broke a sweat in his career, and he swings like mad.
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Yeah maybe. I also think talking about this online has conditioned my ears to hearing Metheny a certain way, so it's hard to comment from a point of reasonable objectivity. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Listening again to early Metheny it's striking just how much the current crop - Lage, Gilad, Kreisberg etc - still inhabit Metheny's shadow - specifically early Metheny - as much as Kurt's. In fact I would go as far to say (in contradiction to an earlier post) that Kurt's influence on the current sound of jazz guitar might be overstated - after all who actually sounds like Kurt? I'm not talking about using a load of delay and playing intervallic lines.
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Metheny certainly was a game changer. There have only been a few in jazz guitar, and imho, aside from a few outliers like Frisell or Julian Lage who don't really take their cue from anybody-- there hasn't been another gamechanger since Metheny.
I can honestly say my playing is not influenced by him, but my writing sure is.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-27-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Apart from Gypsy Jazz I really don't care for swinging.
**Gets kicked off the forum**
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Originally Posted by DaveF
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Neither idea appeals to me - until I hear the actual music, and it becomes irresistible. Originally Posted by DaveF
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Originally Posted by DaveF
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In the meantime, Kurt himself....
Twitter
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Wow, what a crazy thread.
Over the years, I have heard or read Metheny rave on about or say they are the greatest to all of these names;
Kurt Rosenwinkel
Jimmy Raney
Kenny Burrell
George Benson
Pat Martino
Billy Bean
Robert Johnson
Jim Hall
Derek Bailey
Bill Frisell
John Scofield
Eric Gale
Calvin Newborn
Ted Greene
Jack Wilkins
Rene Thomas
Jeff Beck
Ed Cherry
Mike Moreno
Charlie Christian
Mick Goodrick
Django
Ed Bickert
Jimi Hendrix
Freddie Green
Sylvan Luc
and now Pasquale Grasso
and that's just off the top of my head, I'm betting there are probably others he really likes.
I just think the guy is a big fan who is maybe a bit prone to exaggeration!
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Post some Heavyweight Pat Metheny Grooves and Chords and Solos.I know he's a great writer because I could remember the song 'James' instantly and I hear Melodies like a layman .Melodic, lyrical Player...pretty melodies...probably more rare than just ripping it up and playing Rhythmically and chops heavy...maybe that's why he's so successful.I respect his Ability( especially writing ) and envy his success.Also I imagine he has vast knowlege of Harmony etc.- He was invited to be on UM Jazz Guitar Faculty at 19 or 20 years old= prodigy . Most of you never heard the head of Miami Jazz Faculty play...so to be on that Faculty is a serious position.I don't want to play like him....but I'm coming from R&B and expanding it a bit harmonically so sharp Rhythm ...Urban Feel.. some Jazz Guys have it some don't.Metheny may be great but even based on Time Feel forgetting about chops- you Guys can hear that Brecker is at one end of that scale and Metheny is near the other right?What's the Game Changer part of his Contribution ?Opening up some of the Pop Audience with his admittedly excellent Jazz Inspired Pop but also pointing them toward the Originators?Like Clapton and the ( early ) Stones did for the Blues Guys ? Kinda ?
Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-28-2017 at 05:31 PM.
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