Jeff Berlin's thoughts on music education

[Christian Miller]

Jeff has been causing some discussion on Facebook of late. I hope he won't mind (I do think he's posted here in the past) but he posted this on Facebook which I thought was worth presenting as a source of discussion.



I thought it was interesting that the bass player quit for that reason.

That said, I don't think that suiting the teaching to the student means teaching a different syllabus. OTOH a set curriculum can be taught with creativity. From what I've seen of Jeff's teaching, I'd say he does this.

[AllanAllen]

I don’t understand. They say core curriculum, but it sounds like private lessons. Maybe the bass dept is so small enrolling is just private lessons…

[kris]

Maybe we need to ask the question: how many brilliant musicians who want to pass on their knowledge to others?

[Christian Miller]

This is not anything new for Jeff. His criticism of other educators is his daily, weekly and lifelong MO for years. He makes public apologies to well know teachers he has scorched, every now and again, and then gets back on the soapbox...and rinse and repeat. Bipolarish. he often looks for, finds and post evidentiary information to support his agenda.

Evidentiary information - is that the same thing as evidence? I think what you are saying as that he looks for evidence to support his pre-arrived conclusions, is that correct? I think there's some truth to that.

But I would think that anybody attending college (any field of study) would have to presume limited personal attention and a teacher / curriculum oriented environment. Outside of the curriculum, the teacher can only lean on their own experiences and ability to translate/transmit information. Private lessons are available.

I'm aware of Jeff's history on the matter. What I thought was of interest is the identification of people coming in with their own patent concepts and teaching those, that the teaching was teacher-centred. I think there's a lot of truth to this.

Music education is awash in concepts and ideas - also guru figures. Particularly in the states, I think. Some of these concepts become bandwagons everyone jumps on sometimes with a cult like intensity. In voice for many years it was something called Estill Voicecraft, for example. Very technical, supposedly science-rooted (though it has been critiqued) and I found it baffling and completely unhelpful when I was training.

'Im sure we can all think of loads of examples. (Which is not to say that these systems aren't without uses.)

Add to that historically many teachers in jazz have been autodidacts* who have derived a system of their own - George Russell, Barry Harris, Chuck Wayne, Lennie Tristano etc etc - or the students of those autodidacts - and it's easy to see how this situation has arisen. People most often pass on what they themselves were taught, of course. There's reverence of and loyalty to great teachers, but I think that may be found most in the classical world, and I'm not sure that's something I think is altogher healthy. My experiences with the classical world is that it is has big problems.

There's also the archetype of the Salesman type with the Big Idea. Also truth-tellers railing against the System (tm) in exchange for internet eyeballs which has become the leitmotif of our era. Is Jeff one of those? Maybe.

I'm not sure if I'd support uniformity in music education, but it's striking how many schools there are. And then these big bandwagons rolling in. In past that might have been the chord scale system. I see Barry Harris as one that's on the move right now, maybe Partimento in the classical world.

*(maybe not in music generally, but in jazz as jazz education wasn't formalised this stage)

[djg]

Jeff has been causing some discussion on Facebook of late. I hope he won't mind (I do think he's posted here in the past) but he posted this on Facebook which I thought was worth presenting as a source of discussion.



I thought it was interesting that the bass player quit for that reason.

That said, I don't think that suiting the teaching to the student means teaching a different syllabus. OTOH a set curriculum can be taught with creativity. From what I've seen of Jeff's teaching, I'd say he does this.

jeff berlin at it again? is this some sort of groundhog day thingy? what is next? metheny dissing kenny g? fuck wayne shorter? the ken burns debacle? i feel so old.

[pamosmusic]

That last paragraph doesn’t make any sense.

Bass program assigns the right teacher to the right student but all other instruments teach the same curriculum to everyone —- but bass education needs to be fixed?

Is he saying that assigning the right teachers to the right students is a bad thing?

[Christian Miller]

jeff berlin at it again? is this some sort of groundhog day thingy? what is next? metheny dissing kenny g? fuck wayne shorter? the ken burns debacle? i feel so old.

What would I say to Jeff?

[Christian Miller]

And I should mention, speaking only for myself...Jeff is a fantastic musician and teacher.

In the 'What are you listening to' thread, I posted a tune last week that Jeff wrote from Master Strokes (the Bruford, Berlin, Holdsworth album)

Yeah, I think this for example is just a beautiful little lesson that everyone interested in learning jazz should watch.

I'm not sure if I am with him on the metronome thing, but I do value that he's presenting the other side of the debate - I think a lot of young players can come up thinking that jazz musicians have always practiced on click and that the click is the tool by which all the masters developed their time and feel. Which is not true - Barry Harris said that he'd never used one, for instance. The idea of their being a debate about whether or not to use the metronome is beyond the ken of players because for them it's always been drummed into them that using a metronome is the ONLY way to develop time/feel.

But that's another, quite fascinating and complex, debate that people usually end up having a very boring and knee jerk response to.

[kris]

The bass player is usually an accompanist.
The art of accompaniment on bass-is probably here.

[Freddels]

I'm not sure if I am with him on the metronome thing,

The thing that most people don't get about Jeff's view of use of the metronome is actually quite simple. Jeff states that the metronome is not a practice tool.
It's a performance tool.

He stresses that one should work on new music without a metronome so that you learn the piece slowly and get it under your fingers.
To not worry about the time when learning the piece. Otherwise, you will keep repeating the same parts over and over and making the same mistakes over and over because you are trying to play it in time. Just learn it slowly.

Once you know it so well that you are at a level to perform it, then you can put the metronome on and perform the piece in time.

[pamosmusic]

The thing that most people don't get about Jeff's view of use of the metronome is actually quite simple. Jeff states that the metronome is not a practice tool.
It's a performance tool.

He stresses that one should work on new music without a metronome so that you learn the piece slowly and get it under your fingers.
To not worry about the time when learning the piece. Otherwise, you will keep repeating the same parts over and over and making the same mistakes over and over because you are trying to play it in time. Just learn it slowly.

Once you know it so well that you are at a level to perform it, then you can put the metronome on and perform the piece in time.

Honestly that might be sillier?

That’s a super common use case for a metronome. Rushing is kind of the universal human condition. So a metronome is a great way to make sure you’re actually practicing as slowly as you set out to practice.

[DawgBone]

Jeff Berlin was located in Clearwater/St. Pete for quite a few years and was known by local musicians for his bombastic opinions.

[Jimmy blue note]

Everybody who achieves mastery on an instrument, in an art, in an endeavour of life, does it on their own. You can be guided by the helping hand of an insightful teacher or mentor, or you can be dissuaded by someone with whom you don't have any kind of common ground. But if you are out to master the instrument, it's really helpful, if not essential, to be exposed to others so you can find your own track.
I've known so many musicians that have become masters of their craft and artists in their field. They all immersed themselves in an environment where they could learn; whether through positive or negative interactions. They all found others with whom they found the sympatico and confidence to find themselves. And they all got past blaming others, individual or institutional, for failure to achieve.

Learning to play. You're on your own. But if you're smart enough to have your own filters, you can take something from every situation you find yourself in, and synthesize something nobody else can do.

You do this well, some school will take credit for your achievements. You wind up being grumpy and bitter, yeah, plenty of people to blame.

[AllanAllen]

Honestly that might be sillier?

That’s a super common use case for a metronome. Rushing is kind of the universal human condition. So a metronome is a great way to make sure you’re actually practicing as slowly as you set out to practice.

Yeah, but you have to set the click slow enough to get through it. Otherwise you just restart over and over. Like Freddels said

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, but you have to set the click slow enough to get through it. Otherwise you just restart over and over. Like Freddels said

Well yeah. If you’re using a metronome to practice slowly, then you should probably start by setting it slowly.

My metronome rarely goes to far above 60. If the metronome doesn’t go low enough, it can click the eighth note.

Also “get through” what? I always tell students you can take it slower or make it smaller. So if you set the metronome slowly and can’t get through whatever it is, you’re playing to fast OR playing too much. Or both.

[AllanAllen]

For me personally, it’s getting through all the chunks of bebop heads.

[pamosmusic]

For me personally, it’s getting through all the chunks of bebop heads.

Eighth note 80 baby.

My metronome is currently set to 42.

Also like … yeah get your fingerings together. So it’s not like anyone is saying you just sight read to a metronome and then walk away calling it practice. If that’s what he’s arguing against, it’s a straw man for sure.

[AllanAllen]

Mine goes down to 40. It almost never goes over 60. If I’m playing at speed I’m playing along to records anyway.

[Hep To The Jive]

The thing that most people don't get about Jeff's view of use of the metronome is actually quite simple. Jeff states that the metronome is not a practice tool.
It's a performance tool.

He stresses that one should work on new music without a metronome so that you learn the piece slowly and get it under your fingers.
To not worry about the time when learning the piece. Otherwise, you will keep repeating the same parts over and over and making the same mistakes over and over because you are trying to play it in time. Just learn it slowly.

Once you know it so well that you are at a level to perform it, then you can put the metronome on and perform the piece in time.

I agree with that. Some call it pre-practice, when you actually finding the notes and getting to know a phrase or whatever, figuring out the fingerings etc. You don't need metronome for that. Once it's under your fingers and you're ready to take it to the performance level than you drill it with the click. That's how I do it.

[Hep To The Jive]

I'm not sure if I am with him on the metronome thing, but I do value that he's presenting the other side of the debate - I think a lot of young players can come up thinking that jazz musicians have always practiced on click and that the click is the tool by which all the masters developed their time and feel. Which is not true - Barry Harris said that he'd never used one, for instance. The idea of their being a debate about whether or not to use the metronome is beyond the ken of players because for them it's always been drummed into them that using a metronome is the ONLY way to develop time/feel.

But that's another, quite fascinating and complex, debate that people usually end up having a very boring and knee jerk response to.

Yea, I always ready for a boring and knee jerk response to debates like that. Never say ONLY, but a MUST way to develop the time feel. All these talk masters of the past didn't use it blah blah, I'm sorry but starting a tune at 150 and ending at 180 is just not a thing anymore. It worked at that time, but not today. The music has changed, the jazz has changed influenced by other styles. But sure let's live in the past.

[pamosmusic]

I'm sorry but starting a tune at 150 and ending at 180 is just not a thing anymore. It worked at that time, but not today.

Are you sure this is true?

*If* it’s true, then maybe it’s only true on records. Or maybe it’s not as dramatic. Certain vibes (the Invisible Cinema vibe maybe) are probably on the clock. But sure, up tunes still rush when the band gets excited. The live music too is till - yknow - live.

This one starts around 280-290 and ends about 25 clicks faster.

I was listening to Adam Rogers on Sight the other day and I Hear a Rhapsody rushes about twenty clicks.

This is one I was listening to this morning. Melody 160, solos start around 170 and end around 185.

Im a big metronome guy but not sure I can agree with you on that one.

[GuyBoden]

Mine goes down to 40. It almost never goes over 60. If I’m playing at speed I’m playing along to records anyway.

Yes, I've been playing with the metronome set on 30 everyday. But, that's only the first beat, you find the other three beats yourself.

[Christian Miller]

The thing that most people don't get about Jeff's view of use of the metronome is actually quite simple. Jeff states that the metronome is not a practice tool.
It's a performance tool.

He stresses that one should work on new music without a metronome so that you learn the piece slowly and get it under your fingers.
To not worry about the time when learning the piece. Otherwise, you will keep repeating the same parts over and over and making the same mistakes over and over because you are trying to play it in time. Just learn it slowly.

Once you know it so well that you are at a level to perform it, then you can put the metronome on and perform the piece in time.

I think Jeff is right on this.

HOWEVER - one of the biggest issues is as Peter points out is that kids often try to practice too fast. So you have to find a way to slow them down.

I don’t have them do this to a click actually, because that creates other tensions. I just try to demonstrate how slow I mean by playing with them but allow them to be elastic early on. I then might use the metronome later in the process.

Good demonstration by the teacher is a lot of it … you have to be on your game constantly because they pick up on everything.

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[pamosmusic]

I think Jeff Berlin is right on this.

HOWEVER - one of the biggest issues is as Peter points out is that kids often try to practice too fast. So you have to find a way to slow them down.

I don’t have them do this to a click actually, because that creates other tensions. I just try to demonstrate how slow I mean by playing with them. I then might use the metronome later in the process.

Good demonstration by the teacher is a lot of it … you have to be on your game constantly because they pick up on everything.

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I don’t think he’s wrong, I just don’t know of anyone out there saying practice should always be with a metronome or that sight reading to a slow click is how you learn a new figure.

But maybe I’m wrong.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t think he’s wrong, I just don’t know of anyone out there saying practice should always be with a metronome or that sight reading to a slow click is how you learn a new figure.

But maybe I’m wrong.

Yeah I don’t know if anyone actually teaches that way.

for my own learning I pretty much follow the out of time/slow and in time/work up to tempo thing that I suspect most players do, but I’m making assumptions here. I think Jeff is too.


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