Jeff Berlin's thoughts on music education

[James W]

I wish my music education course was like that, mine was very academic after the first year.

Ditto.

We did have orchestration classes but that was pretty uninspiring, whether because of the lecturer or something else I'm not sure. Peter's syllabus sounds more demanding than mine was... although it's possible I think this because of my slight tendency to slack off...

I'd say in my course we didn't have as many hours of classes but you just had to be more motivated to put in time for all the coursework, and it was down to you to acquire skills etc.

[pamosmusic]

Interesting. Pretty standard in the states. Most people didn’t have the jazz stuff, but still.

Everyone I know had some variation on the theory, ear training, piano triad … always nine hours and five credits though they often got there a different way (ear training as a lab for a four credit theory class, whatever). I also don’t know anyone who got more than one credit for an ensemble or who wasn’t require to be in 1-2 a semester.

[Hep To The Jive]

My first music school was in Russia, that was 'fun'. Thick skin required. Ear training was the class I was dreading the most. I only learned how to read music a few months before the school with a private tutor. I couldn't connect a pitch to a written note too fast. The teacher would play a melody a few times and ask everyone wrote it down? If not she'd say now for 'specially gifted' I'll play two more times haha. The humiliation was real! No regrets though, I learned a lot of stuff I wouldn't on my own.

[AllanAllen]

I’m probably lumped in with StarJasmime’s anti-music school people. But my whole question is, why do you want to go?

I’ve seen a few teenagers ask here if music college is a good idea and their goal is to be a gigging jazz musician. In my opinion, unless you can already play and are using school as an excuse to move from Iowa to NYC, it’s not a good path. A lot of financial risk and in the end you still have to get lucky, network the right people and be on the night someone checks you out.

Also, for my personality, I’d rather work a desk job and play at night. I don’t want to teach lessons, record jingles or create content as a day job.

There isn’t a single person on this forum living off performance income. And the romanticized idea of professional musician is someone living off gigs.

[pamosmusic]

I’m probably lumped in with StarJasmime’s anti-music school people. But my whole question is, why do you want to go?

I’ve seen a few teenagers ask here if music college is a good idea and their goal is to be a gigging jazz musician. In my opinion, unless you can already play and are using school as an excuse to move from Iowa to NYC, it’s not a good path. A lot of financial risk and in the end you still have to get lucky, network the right people and be on the night someone checks you out.

I don’t think you’re wrong about this, necessarily but I would say two things.

The first thing is that you would want to have a really certain sense of what they’d be missing if you’re going to discourage them from going. Do you have that?

There’s a lot of stuff you can do on your own — lessons being the big one, but there’s a lot going on at music school. Per the schedule above, lessons were two out of thirty or so hours of classes I took generally.

The other thing I’d say relates to this:

Also, for my personality, I’d rather work a desk job and play at night. I don’t want to teach lessons, record jingles or create content as a day job.

There isn’t a single person on this forum living off performance income. And the romanticized idea of professional musician is someone living off gigs.

Thats actually fine and I don’t think I’m all that different, but you might be framing it the wrong way. I don’t want to take a bunch of gigs I don’t like or be gone 25 weekends a year to play in a good wedding band, be in the military, or do some of the other things people do when they make a real living performing. I would say first of all that music school actually prepares you pretty well for Swiss army gigs like that.

But also, I don’t want gigs like that so my fallback isn’t a desk job. Teaching in community jazz classes and arranging for elementary jazz bands IS my desk job. Every job I’ve worked since has been music adjacent so I got the opportunity to run errands to the Ed Sullivan Theater and tell Aaron Goldberg his friend was bringing in too many guests on his dime. And that was because of my background, if not because of some specific credential I got in music school.

So I’m not rolling in money, but music school worked out alright for me.

If I’m talking to someone about music school I’m definitely realistic. Like performing for a living means Taking. The. Gig. And otherwise being a musician for a living means teaching. That last bit was drilled into my head all four years all the time. Pedagogy classes, out the wazoo. And honestly I don’t think they hit it hard enough. Anyway … it’s not a simple decision and people shouldn’t be pie in the Sky about it and it’s not for everyone, etc. but still.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting. Pretty standard in the states. Most people didn’t have the jazz stuff, but still.

Everyone I know had some variation on the theory, ear training, piano triad … always nine hours and five credits though they often got there a different way (ear training as a lab for a four credit theory class, whatever). I also don’t know anyone who got more than one credit for an ensemble or who wasn’t require to be in 1-2 a semester.

Yeah, me doing a lesson a week of basic piano skills would have been far more use to me than being able to do masters level humanities research, but there you go…


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[Christian Miller]

I’m probably lumped in with StarJasmime’s anti-music school people. But my whole question is, why do you want to go?

I’ve seen a few teenagers ask here if music college is a good idea and their goal is to be a gigging jazz musician. In my opinion, unless you can already play and are using school as an excuse to move from Iowa to NYC, it’s not a good path. A lot of financial risk and in the end you still have to get lucky, network the right people and be on the night someone checks you out.

Also, for my personality, I’d rather work a desk job and play at night. I don’t want to teach lessons, record jingles or create content as a day job.

There isn’t a single person on this forum living off performance income. And the romanticized idea of professional musician is someone living off gigs.

I think my playing career would have gone better if I’d gone to music college. But with a few miles on the clock it doesn’t matter.

I worked a desk job for about ten years and played in the evening. I know others who do that. It’s not that unusual? Especially to afford capital city rents. Not everyone is a teacher etc.


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[pamosmusic]

I think my playing career would have gone better if I’d gone to music college. But with a few miles on the clock it doesn’t matter.

I worked a desk job for about ten years and played in the evening. I know others who do that. It’s not that unusual? Especially to afford capital city rents. Not everyone is a teacher etc.


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Great bass player I played with in New York was a paralegal. Another bass player was a manager for a coffee roastery. A drummer I played with ran a boys and girls club in the Bronx. Another one performed at a kids zone sort of place in Brooklyn. Obviously restaurants, restaurants, restaurants, and more restaurants (which in New York probably pays better than any of the above).

People do all sorts of stuff to make it happen.

[Hep To The Jive]

I’m probably lumped in with StarJasmime’s anti-music school people. But my whole question is, why do you want to go?

I’ve seen a few teenagers ask here if music college is a good idea and their goal is to be a gigging jazz musician. In my opinion, unless you can already play and are using school as an excuse to move from Iowa to NYC, it’s not a good path. A lot of financial risk and in the end you still have to get lucky, network the right people and be on the night someone checks you out.

Also, for my personality, I’d rather work a desk job and play at night. I don’t want to teach lessons, record jingles or create content as a day job.

There isn’t a single person on this forum living off performance income. And the romanticized idea of professional musician is someone living off gigs.

There are people on this forum who live off the performance. I personally know at least one. They might not post too often, but anyway. Also I lived off the gigs last year, I had one day of teaching half a day, but even if i didn't it wouldn't affect my income too much so i can say that. This year have been slower. That's the deal, it's not stable.

[Christian Miller]

There are people on this forum who live off the performance. I personally know at least one. They might not post too often, but anyway. Also I lived off the gigs last year, I had one day of teaching half a day, but even if i didn't it wouldn't affect my income too much so i can say that. This year have been slower. That's the deal, it's not stable.

Yeah I’ve gone through periods of mostly playing for a living. It has its irritations and problems.


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[starjasmine]

Peter and others have underscored something I left out of my original post because it was already getting long :-/

A certain part of curriculum varies according to declared major and the school itself, at least in the US.

• Regardless of major, everyone has to meet about two years of "general education" requirements that are intended to guarantee basic literacy in English, math, and sciences.
• The other part of coursework varies according to declared major: a performance major will take more ensemble classes than a composition major, for example, and the applied lessons would be in composition rather than performance on a specific instrument. Everybody takes a certain amount of piano (which I think is a good thing) but the music ed major would be required to gain basic proficiency on every orchestral instrument, so that they can teach a marching band class someday. OTOH, a jazz performance major is much more focused on advanced proficiency on your declared instrument. I never touched an oboe or a bassoon, although in the years prior to enrolling in the jazz major I did learn to play trumpet, baritone, tuba, double bass, electric bass and clarinet in addition to becoming a terrible pianist.
• In the US, every declared major also must complete a certain amount of class credit in elective coursework within the major. So I was a performance major but I took multiple semesters in big-band arranging and multitrack recording engineering as electives. My school also had jazz theory that picked up where the standard theory block ending with Stravinsky left off.

Then there are private schools like GIT and Dick Groves, which are yet another viable path. A lot of great players went to GIT instead of traditional music colleges, with very effective outcomes. Some folks treated Dick Groves like that, while others went there AFTER getting the traditional degree.

I guess the point is that there are different journeys to take in music education, so it's advisable not to paint the subject with too broad a brush.

[AllanAllen]

Great bass player I played with in New York was a paralegal. Another bass player was a manager for a coffee roastery. A drummer I played with ran a boys and girls club in the Bronx. Another one performed at a kids zone sort of place in Brooklyn. Obviously restaurants, restaurants, restaurants, and more restaurants (which in New York probably pays better than any of the above).

People do all sorts of stuff to make it happen.

Exactly, that’s the reality I’d like kids looking at music school to understand.

[AllanAllen]

There are people on this forum who live off the performance. I personally know at least one. They might not post too often, but anyway. Also I lived off the gigs last year, I had one day of teaching half a day, but even if i didn't it wouldn't affect my income too much so i can say that. This year have been slower. That's the deal, it's not stable.

Supplementing retirement income with gigs doesn’t count.

Going to music school so you can support yourself after you retire from a career in law is all kinds of backwards.

[pamosmusic]

Exactly, that’s the reality I’d like kids looking at music school to understand.

But none of the stuff in the much longer post I put in there before?

And I guess my point is — if someone is going to take it upon themselves to communicate that reality, they should have a realistic picture too.

For example … the rest of the picture …

Law office guy moved to New York and just gigged for about three months and then needed to make more money. He could’ve taken gigs he didn’t want or he could’ve continued in the same vein and taken other work, so he chose the latter. It wasn’t out of desperation. He’s also a full time player now. Splits between straight ahead, trad, and some singer songwriter stuff. He’s doing what he wants to do, it just took a little longer to establish than he could float with the money he had together when he moved. I’m sure he teaches too, but not his main thing.

The coffee bass player I’m not sure.

The kid zone drummer is the full time drummer for Sammy Rae and the Friends and is opening for Jacob Collier in the near future apparently?

The boys and girls club drummer still gigs a lot but is more involved in the organization because he loves it.

So I don’t know. It takes time to network and people are always going to balance taking artistic work they don’t want to take or, since it’s work they’d rather not do anyway, opting for some temporary stability. And when the goal is to make a living playing music you want to play, the best choice in the long term might actually be a choice that looks from the outside like you’re taking menial work because music can’t support you. Sometimes that’s true, but other times it’s not.

So when you’re describing the harsh reality to the young guns, you might want to make sure that you’re sure you’re describing it accurately.

[Tal_175]

So I don’t know. It takes time to network and people are always going to balance taking artistic work they don’t want to take or, since it’s work they’d rather not do anyway, opting for some temporary stability. And when the goal is to make a living playing music you want to play, the best choice in the long term might actually be a choice that looks from the outside like you’re taking menial work because music can’t support you. Sometimes that’s true, but other times it’s not.

I know some musicians (jazz and classical) who make a living playing music. It's interesting that their experience is very different from what you describe here. They live with the fear of losing their place on the call list of their contacts. One person I know couldn't take vacations for years because she didn't want to lose her contact to the next person on the list. She had to even cancel trip plans in the last minute when her contacts called. She was relieved when covid happened. Finally she could take some time off without the risk losing her place on the call list. I've met others in the similar situation. When the phone rings, they have to go regardless of how "artistically" unfulfilling the gig is (even if they don't need the money from that gig). That's if they want to support themselves mainly with gigs in employers market. If you take a couple of months of, there is a chance the gigs won't be there when you come back. It may take years to climb back up to the first or second call of your contacts.

Maybe New York is different in that respect.

[pamosmusic]

I know some musicians (jazz and classical) who make a living playing music. It's interesting that their experience is very different from what you describe here. They live with the fear of losing their place on the call list of their contacts. One person I know couldn't take vacations for years because she didn't want to lose her contact to the next person on the list. She had to even cancel trip plans in the last minute when her contacts called.

Okay so what do you mean “call list?”

Just like … who their people are calling for various gigs? If so, I have literally never heard of someone skipping or canceling vacations for that reason. I have the people I like. If they can’t make it I call the next person. There’s always a chance that the person I call turns out to be awesome and maybe I start calling them. That’s just life. Not really an existential risk.

You mentioned classical musicians, and orchestral jobs are about the scarcest and most competitive jobs on gods green earth, so maybe that. They also tend to be stable with contractual vacation time and tenure tracks. Otherwise no idea.

What is this gig?

I've met others in the similar situation. When the phone rings, they have to go regardless of how "artistically" unfulfilling the gig is (even if they don't need the money from that gig). That's if they want to support themselves mainly with gigs in employers market.

Im not sure any of that contradicts what I said? Some people want to do this. Other people choose to work to avoid this and it takes much longer to build up the kind of network they can rely on for the work they want to do.

If you take a couple of months of, there is a chance the gigs won't be there when you come back. It may take years to climb back up to the first or second call.

Well yeah man a couple months off will do that but that’s a far cry from a week at the beach with your wife or whatever.

Consistent unreliability is a different thing. I have never heard someone say “yeah she was on vacation the other week so she’s out.” I have heard people say “yeah I haven’t been able to get him out for the last few, so who knows.” But that’s a different thing.

If you’re generally reliable and easy to work with and you play the music well

[Tal_175]

Just like … who their people are calling for various gigs? If so, I have literally never heard of someone skipping or canceling vacations for that reason. I have the people I like. If they can’t make it I call the next person. There’s always a chance that the person I call turns out to be awesome and maybe I start calling them. That’s just life. Not really an existential risk.

Yeah, but it may feel like an existential risk if your only income is gigs.

You mentioned classical musicians, and orchestral jobs are about the scarcest and most competitive jobs on gods green earth, so maybe that. They also tend to be stable with contractual vacation time and tenure tracks. Otherwise no idea.

Classical musicians who don't have a tenure in an orchestra but have to take jobs like musicals, concerts, large events, substitute orchestra work.

Im not sure any of that contradicts what I said? Some people want to do this. Other people choose to work to avoid this and it takes much longer to build up the kind of network they can rely on for the work they want to do.

Maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you were saying that some (actively gigging) musicians only take gigs that they find artistically fulfilling, although reading it again, I may have parsed your sentence differently than you intended. I was contrasting that with the experience of people who have to take the "bad" gigs to not lose the good gigs.

Consistent unreliability is a different thing. I have never heard someone say “yeah she was on vacation the other week so she’s out.”

Of course they won't say that or think that in the moment, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. When the market is extremely supply heavy and there are dozens of musicians who'd kill to that that gig, job insecurity creeps in.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you were saying that some (actively gigging) musicians only take gigs that they find artistically fulfilling, although reading it again, I may have parsed your sentence differently than you intended.

No that’s the opposite of what I was saying.

To be a gigging musician, you have to take a lot of gigs. If you want to be choosy, you have to do other work like teaching or something different.

Though with time, you can build up a consistent schedule doing work you like to do. So in the long term it can be better to be choosy than to dive right in. You’d have to the right balance though so that you’re out and people are calling you.

[starjasmine]

Okay so what do you mean “call list?”

Just like … who their people are calling for various gigs? If so, I have literally never heard of someone skipping or canceling vacations for that reason. I have the people I like. If they can’t make it I call the next person. There’s always a chance that the person I call turns out to be awesome and maybe I start calling them. That’s just life. Not really an existential risk.

Yes, he's talking about the list of musicians that a contractor prefers working with, in order of preference.

Sometimes the contracting musician will wait for a callback from a preferred player and other times they won't. Waiting for a callback usually happens when there is a rehearsed band with a name and an act that commands premium pay and the client expects the people in the promo photo to be on the stand.** In those situations, the bandmembers often have made a commitment to make those gigs their priority, agreeing that they will cancel sideman gigs with other acts in the event of a conflict. If the client really wants a specific act, the agent or bandleader may need to confirm availability of all the bandmembers before taking a gig.

Flip side, I knew* a drummer who booked a LOT of jazz casuals. Everyone on his list was an A-list player. No rehearsals, no bullshit, just show up and play and get paid well at nice venues. His policy was that if you didn't answer the phone, he would immediately call the next player on his list for that chair. Nothing personal about it; he was a super nice guy and a great player. Always paid the night of the gig even if the venue had not paid him yet.

He worked a lot because he always took gigs even if he didn't know exactly who would be available, and this worked out well for him because he was a great player who knew a slew of other great players. No matter who was on the stand, the gig would be top-notch. 9 times out of 10, though, if you called him back ten minutes later, he would have already filled the chair for that evening. Miss too many calls and, yeah, that guy who did answer the phone would outrank you in the preference order.

If you were on his list, you worked a lot. If your only income is from music, then, yeah, getting bumped down the list could have a serious negative effect on your income.

Again, I have to qualify this story with the context that it was back when there was a lot of good-paying casual work: before DJs, streaming, video games and so on. Lately I've been seeing YouTube vids about how people make money as contract songwriters - they claim to make $100k/year in income without a label or a publishing deal. IDK how true these stories are.

*Sadly, he has gone to the great bandstand in the sky; RIP, JF.
**Full disclosure: these are usually not jazz gigs ;-)

[Hep To The Jive]

Supplementing retirement income with gigs doesn’t count.

Going to music school so you can support yourself after you retire from a career in law is all kinds of backwards.

Ha? Retirment income, still far from it lol! Maybe you think the wrong person, some retired lawer?

I'd be curious to know who went to music school after retirment, not that there's anything wrong with it...

[Hep To The Jive]

What put me off in the US college system is insane amout of writing papers you have to do in many classes. I went for the music major, and spending time writing papers instead of practicing actual music was super annoying. I never considered going to graduate school because of that.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, he's talking about the list of musicians that a contractor prefers working with, in order of preference.

Sometimes the contracting musician will wait for a callback from a preferred player and other times they won't. Waiting for a callback usually happens when there is a rehearsed band with a name and an act that commands premium pay and the client expects the people in the promo photo to be on the stand.** In those situations, the bandmembers often have made a commitment to make those gigs their priority, agreeing that they will cancel sideman gigs with other acts in the event of a conflict. If the client really wants a specific act, the agent or bandleader may need to confirm availability of all the bandmembers before taking a gig.

Flip side, I knew* a drummer who booked a LOT of jazz casuals. Everyone on his list was an A-list player. No rehearsals, no bullshit, just show up and play and get paid well at nice venues. His policy was that if you didn't answer the phone, he would immediately call the next player on his list for that chair. Nothing personal about it; he was a super nice guy and a great player. Always paid the night of the gig even if the venue had not paid him yet.

He worked a lot because he always took gigs even if he didn't know exactly who would be available, and this worked out well for him because he was a great player who knew a slew of other great players. No matter who was on the stand, the gig would be top-notch. 9 times out of 10, though, if you called him back ten minutes later, he would have already filled the chair for that evening. Miss too many calls and, yeah, that guy who did answer the phone would outrank you in the preference order.

If you were on his list, you worked a lot. If your only income is from music, then, yeah, getting bumped down the list could have a serious negative effect on your income.

Yeah sure. I mean, I get all this, but Tal is describing a level of intensity in that respect that I don’t think I’ve ever encountered. Someone not taking and/or canceling vacations for years is a whole thing.

People can be workaholics. I get that. I might even be one of them. But I could take a vacation (don’t ask me if I am this summer).

But more to the point, I have some friends that have big time regular gigs, touring bands, high dollar society bands. That kind of thing. They take vacations now and again. In the situation Tal described, the issue wouldn’t be that they were gone, it would be that the bandleader called them when they were gone, which would presumably mean the bandleader was unaware.

[AllanAllen]

Ha? Retirment income, still far from it lol! Maybe you think the wrong person, some retired lawer?

I'd be curious to know who went to music school after retirment, not that there's anything wrong with it...

You’re not understanding my point.

[starjasmine]

I have a sax player friend who described the LA scene exactly like that - very cutthroat. If you misread a chart in a rehearsal band, you were out and there were ten guys waiting to take your spot.

Of course, there is a certain amount of personal risk tolerance involved too. If you can't stand the idea of losing work, then you might not take that vacation.

[Tal_175]

Yeah sure. I mean, I get all this, but Tal is describing a level of intensity in that respect that I don’t think I’ve ever encountered. Someone not taking and/or canceling vacations for years is a whole thing.

People can be workaholics. I get that. I might even be one of them. But I could take a vacation (don’t ask me if I am this summer).

But more to the point, I have some friends that have big time regular gigs, touring bands, high dollar society bands. That kind of thing. They take vacations now and again. In the situation Tal described, the issue wouldn’t be that they were gone, it would be that the bandleader called them when they were gone, which would presumably mean the bandleader was unaware.

The issue is not whether the band leader is unaware. The issue would be that their first call is not available to take the gig so it goes to the next. The contact is not necessarily the band leader by the way. It could be an organizer of a annual event, booking agent or other intermediary contact. Every gigging musicians situation is different. The vacation cancelling happened only for some of her most important contacts that typically booked highly competitive and well paid gigs.