Jeff Berlin's thoughts on music education

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I don’t know if anyone actually teaches that way.

for my own learning I pretty much follow the out of time/slow and in time/work up to tempo thing that I suspect most players do, but I’m making assumptions here. I think Jeff is too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It feels like the usual internet formula of (1) Says controversial thing, (2) redefines terms in unusual ways to render it uncontroversial to the point of banal, (3) responds to imagined outcry over thing he said.

I guess it’s not a practice tool when you have this idiosyncratic separation of performance and practice.

[Christian Miller]

It feels like the usual internet formula of (1) Says controversial thing, (2) redefines terms in unusual ways to render it uncontroversial to the point of banal, (3) responds to imagined outcry over thing he said.

I guess it’s not a practice tool when you have this idiosyncratic separation of performance and practice.

Yes, although I kind of think there’s value in making the distinction between the two activities within practice.

Performance to me means doing it in front of other people, but I’m old fashioned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Yes, although I kind of think there’s value in making the distinction between the two activities within practice.

Performance to me means doing it in front of other people, but I’m old fashioned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah really kind of takes the hot out of the hot take though

[Hep To The Jive]

Are you sure this is true?

*If* it’s true, then maybe it’s only true on records. Or maybe it’s not as dramatic. Certain vibes (the Invisible Cinema vibe maybe) are probably on the clock. But sure, up tunes still rush when the band gets excited. The live music too is till - yknow - live.

This one starts around 280-290 and ends about 25 clicks faster.

I was listening to Adam Rogers on Sight the other day and I Hear a Rhapsody rushes about twenty clicks.

This is one I was listening to this morning. Melody 160, solos start around 170 and end around 185.

Im a big metronome guy but not sure I can agree with you on that one.

Yea I'm pretty sure. I already posted some videos somewhere to exemplify it, but look up Max Roach/Clifford Brown Live and see if i'm right or wrong. Unfortunately can't check your videos, it's unavailable, need to change the VPN region I guess.

But a little bit to rush yea it's normal, it's excitment. Even though for the studio I prefer the click track.

Also I think metronome can teach you to lock in the groove, which for me is the most important thing playing in a band. The feeling of locking in and grooving together as a band is the best. Maybe for straight ahead jazz players the priorities are different, I don't know.

[Christian Miller]

Just let people swing Hep ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

But a little bit to rush yea it's normal, it's excitment. Even though for the studio I prefer the click track.

Well yeah that’s a little different than the vibe of that first post. Preference is preference I guess.

Also I think metronome can teach you to lock in the groove, which for me is the most important thing playing in a band. The feeling of locking in and grooving together as a band is the best. Maybe for straight ahead jazz players the priorities are different, I don't know.

For the record I asked for a metronome for Christmas when I was 15 and never looked back. Love me a metronome. I think the point Christian et al are making is that locking into a band and locking into a metronome aren’t quite the same thing. A band is more loose and flexible at its best.

The part of the argument where a metronome is a crutch and doesn’t teach good time feel is the bit that I think is a red herring. Isn’t meant to. And you don’t just have to have it whacking away on a quarter note the whole time either — creative use of a metronome is a really good way to strengthen the time feel you pick up by practicing in other ways.

[Hep To The Jive]

I think the point Christian et al are making is that locking into a band and locking into a metronome aren’t quite the same thing. A band is more loose and flexible at its best.

And that's what I disagree with. Consider metronome is your personal drummer with perfect timing. If you can't lock in with it, how do you expect to lock in with a real one? You think somehow your timing will magically become great on the bandstand where it's "loose and flexible''? I'd never teach that philosophy. Of course pros would talk about playing behind and on top of the beat, that all will come from experience later, never worry that metronome will stop you from it. I guess that's my point.

The part of the argument where a metronome is a crutch and doesn’t teach good time feel is the bit that I think is a red herring. Isn’t meant to. And you don’t just have to have it whacking away on a quarter note the whole time either — creative use of a metronome is a really good way to strengthen the time feel you pick up by practicing in other ways.

Obviously 'metronome is a crutch' is bs argument, or how Americans would say gaslighting )) Then playing with drummers also a ''crutch''. Sure, it could be. Doesn't have to be, don't blame the tool.

Agree with creative use, i practice jazz or any 8th note based grooves on 2 and 4. Basic, but again, it works and it's proven. 16th grooves on the downbeat.

[AllanAllen]

The band speeding up a little is fine, the drummer hearing a 160 count, coming it at 155, then going to 190 six bars in, is not fine.

A good drummer is absolutely a crutch, play some gigs without drums, or with the drummer above and then play with a solid guy. It's downright easy.

[Freddels]

Honestly that might be sillier?

That’s a super common use case for a metronome. Rushing is kind of the universal human condition. So a metronome is a great way to make sure you’re actually practicing as slowly as you set out to practice.

Not according to my music professor friends.

[pamosmusic]

Not according to my music professor friends.

Oh dang. I got got.

[AllanAllen]

Oh dang. I got got.

RIP in peace bro.

[Cunamara]

for my own learning I pretty much follow the out of time/slow and in time/work up to tempo thing

I don't know any other way to do it. Go through once (many more than once in my case) just to get the notes under the fingers, then try to get the time relationships right and then bring it up to tempo.

[DawgBone]

The band speeding up a little is fine, the drummer hearing a 160 count, coming it at 155, then going to 190 six bars in, is not fine.

A good drummer is absolutely a crutch, play some gigs without drums, or with the drummer above and then play with a solid guy. It's downright easy.

Most drummers I know immediately dump it down to 130 cause they cannot play a shuffle at 160. I have seen this dozens of times at various jams. Most people can't count. They can't keep time. Drummers are sadly some of the worst today since the advent of affordable kits.

If you a) have good time and b) don't step on toes and c) have a great attitude, you can basically get hired all over the place as a side man even if you are an otherwise average guitarist because those are the things that make someone easy to work with on stage.

[CliffR]

I don't know any other way to do it. Go through once (many more than once in my case) just to get the notes under the fingers, then try to get the time relationships right and then bring it up to tempo.

I used to learn just the notes first, then the timing, but more recently I've found it useful to learn the time relationships concurrently. At least, learning whether a not is on or off the beat, part of a triplet, etc etc. This way I find that learning the note sequence sounds much more like the music even if it's not up to tempo.

[AllanAllen]

I used to learn just the notes first, then the timing, but more recently I've found it useful to learn the time relationships concurrently. At least, learning whether a not is on or off the beat, part of a triplet, etc etc. This way I find that learning the note sequence sounds much more like the music even if it's not up to tempo.

I think that’s a good idea. Now, if I’m learning something by reading, I’ll go by lick, basically from one rest to the next. Usually they are 1 bar, maybe spilling over to 6 beats. So I can take in the notes and rhythm. As long as it’s short phrases.

It’s funny to put that in writing and realize how little I’ve come along after 18 months of “focused effort” learning to read.

[CliffR]

I dunno. Don't beat yourself up. I think 'learning how to learn' is a skill we're all continually improving.

[AllanAllen]

I appreciate the pep talk.

[deacon Mark]

I don't really get at all what Jeff had to say. Frankly going to school to be a musician is fine but really in the grand scheme of things I think other occupations are better. I am going against all the grain of music and probably what folks here think but really if you have the ears and the dedication not much of musical school will get you except credentials for some teaching and a resume.

I am way to practical these days to ever suggest someone should pursue a degree in music.

[starjasmine]

People vote with their feet. i.e. those who didn't go to music school seem to be the most vocal advocates of not going to music school, and I don't believe that I'm hearing too many folks say they have regrets about getting their music degree.

I am VERY glad that I got a music degree. It got me where I needed to go as a musician, catching me up on what I missed by not growing up with a pro musician in the household.

But I didn't go to music school because I thought it was a good way to make money. I went because I wanted to learn to play. All of the industry pros on faculty were super up-front about the challenges and difficult realities of the music biz.

No, it's not the only way to learn, and it might not be the right choice for everyone. For me, it was absolutely the right choice, and I have no regrets about that decision.

That said, both the music biz and the cost of college have both changed radically since I came up, so the considerations for whether to pursue that degree might be a bit different now.

[Alter]

I very much agree with the previous poster. Perhaps the most difficult thing to navigate today is how dynamic and rapidly changing the nature of the music business is, because technological developments, society and peoples lifestyles changing, and corporate greed have affected it so drastically. The basic thing that musicians needed to do to support themselves was be good at playing live and recording music. No longer enough.

On Jeff Berlins thoughts, i saw that too when i was in Berklee. There was a core, but it was very much open and every teacher would do their thing. But i realized that that was the best way to get the most out of the very talented and generally enthusiastic people that taught there. If you study with high level teachers, you want to get their perspective and what they have discovered and accomplished through their journey. I found the program extremely well designed and practical.

Not everyone has what it takes to become a pro musician. I used to see that all the time say in Berklee, and everywhere else. People would envy someone like Lionel Lueke or Lage Lund, etc, and become miserable and unhappy because they couldn't reach that level. But i knew both these players, and like everyone else on that level, they would work their a@@ off, practicing and living around the instrument and music all day and night, with an extreme passion and dedication (plus the talent). Like in any business, can't have the results without the work.

People talk about money and doing something other than art if you are mainly interested in money as if it is a secret. It is literally the first thing anyone even vaguely interested in pursuing anything art related knows. They are either too passionate to care, or well off financially, especially these days.

[Christian Miller]

People vote with their feet. i.e. those who didn't go to music school seem to be the most vocal advocates of not going to music school, and I don't believe that I'm hearing too many folks say they have regrets about getting their music degree.

I don’t know - it seems to me at least on YouTube that there’s a stream of Berklee grads cashing in clicks by saying it’s overrated. I don’t know how genuine this is.

While I on the other hand who didn’t go to music college would advise anyone serious about music to go.

Among other things I think music college actually teaches a lot of soft skills that even those who go aren’t aware of. Networking and so on is also important. But you need to be ready mentally and playing wise.

I don’t think I would have dealt with music school very well at 18 years old lol. I think you have to go in with the right attitude and your eyes open.

It is an awful lot of money esp. in the US.

If I had my time again I’d apply for bursary for study in New York. That’s what I’d advise a serious young student and it’s an increasingly well trodden path for UK musicians.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

People vote with their feet. i.e. those who didn't go to music school seem to be the most vocal advocates of not going to music school, and I don't believe that I'm hearing too many folks say they have regrets about getting their music degree.

I am VERY glad that I got a music degree. It got me where I needed to go as a musician, catching me up on what I missed by not growing up with a pro musician in the household.

But I didn't go to music school because I thought it was a good way to make money. I went because I wanted to learn to play. All of the industry pros on faculty were super up-front about the challenges and difficult realities of the music biz.

No, it's not the only way to learn, and it might not be the right choice for everyone. For me, it was absolutely the right choice, and I have no regrets about that decision.

That said, both the music biz and the cost of college have both changed radically since I came up, so the considerations for whether to pursue that degree might be a bit different now.

Yeah I think quite a lot of this is true. With some space for quite a lot of Christian’s to be true too.

An interesting note for the Music School is Dumb folks:

One of my roommates was a math major and he would take like … four classes a semester, which seemed luxurious to me. But one of those classes was always absolutely brutal. Like a third of the class has to retake or something. So he’d have this pretty mild class load but if you didn’t have the chops for something you pretty much just switched majors.

With music, on the other hand, I don’t think I took any classes that were widowmakers like that, but holy mother of god we had to take so many classes. Here’s what a semester of my freshman year looked like:

Theory — 3 credits, 3 hours
Spanish — 3 credits, 3 hours
Jazz lessons — 1 credit, 1 hour
Classical lessons — 1 credit, 1 hour
Masterclass — 0 credits, 2 hours
Piano — 1 credit, 3 hours
Ear Training — 1 credit, 3 hours
Percussion Tech — 1 credit, 3 hours
Jazz Ensemble — 1 credit, 3 hours
Jazz Combo — 1 credit, 3 hours
Guitar Orchestra — 1 credit, 3 hours
Music Technology — 1 credit, 3 hours

So that’s 15 credit hours adding up to 32 hours of class each week. Of course, none of that accounts for outside practice.

So part of my thing about music school is that most majors are fake. You can’t tell me a business major prepares you for the world and a music major doesn’t, because neither of them has much to do with a real job at the end of the day. The difference is that if you come out of a music degree and can play then it’s at least proof that you know how to put your freaking nose to the grindstone.

So when goobers on this site say they don’t have much time to practice and also say music school isn’t practical, I have a little chuckle because music school is where I learned to make time for it.

Anyway.

[James W]

What's Percussion Tech?

[pamosmusic]

What's Percussion Tech?

Percussion techniques … to be a music education major you had to take Percussion, Woodwinds, Brass, Strings, and Voice. Classroom classes where you’d work through common beginner methods and stuff.

[Christian Miller]

I wish my music education course was like that, mine was very academic after the first year.