So what's the story with 50s Kay archtops?

[WimWalther]

I don't know guitar values, which might be why this seems like a giveaway to me..

1950's Kay Electric Archtop w/Case + Original Pickup - musical instruments - by owner - sale - craigslist

What a handsome veteran instrument! Under six hundred bucks, in a period case? It's like right out of a Louvin Brothers performance or something..

Do these old Kay archtops just not demand big values?

[Cunamara]

Well, there is a lot of information on on the Internet about those and I don't want to repeat all of it. Suffice to say, Kay and Harmony etc. instruments were low-cost plywood guitars with faux flamed wood finishing, etc. They served a purpose but they don't hold a candle to a Gibson, Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild, etc. of the same era- let alone one of the boutique luthier instruments. They do have a certain charm, and there is a community of folks who collect these things and have a lot of information about them.

[WimWalther]

Ok, I see. So the better quality guitars of this era were made of solid planks rather than laminated (ply-)wood? On the upside, I'd think that plywood is less prone to splitting?

Not sure what you mean by "faux" flaming.. you mean that the flame is simulated with paint?

Btw, 20-some years back, I picked up a ca. '61 Gretsch elec archtop from a garage sale for $75. It had a blonde sunburst finish, with some heavy cracking, though the wood was solid. Came in a nice period case.

I consigned it for sale, and it went for around $600 iirc. This is my only direct experience with guitars of this style & era, which is why $550 seems so cheap to me for the Kay, in 2024.

[bendingtens]

From what I've read, Harmony didn't use plywoods until the 1970s. Before that, it was birch and mahogany. Both Harmony & Kay made some high-end arch tops during the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Harmony Cremonas have carved tops. So do Kay Television models. I have a friend with a natural finish Harmony H-62 and I can attest it is a beautiful playing and sounding guitar. After all, it has Gibson P-13 pickups.

[oldane]

Kay and Harmony instruments must be seen as budget alternatives to the instruments from say Gibson or Fender. Their quality reflected their price and the workmanship, finish and playability was not at all on par with the more expensive guitars from Gibson, Fender etc. Not all old gutars are fine guitars. These days someone wanting to buy a budget priced guitar will be better off checking the offerings from say Ibanez, Epiphone or Squier (Fender).

In the first years of the 1960s many British rock/pop musicians used Harmony guitars - for example Keith Richards, Brian Jones and Spencer Davis - largely due to the low availability of the higher end American instruments in Europe (and maybe especially in UK?) at that time. John Lennon bought his first Rickenbacker while The Beatles were in Hamburg. George Harrison bought his first Gretsch Duo Jet from a sailor in Liverpool who had bought it in the US. Before that, George Harrison had wanted a Strat but couldn't find one anywhere and ended up with another three pickup guitar from a now forgotten czechoslovakian factory.

However, that changed with the explosion in number of rock/pop groups, which created a big market for guitars. Soon everybody had switched to the now well known American instruments from Gibson, Epiphone (which was still made in Kalamazoo at that time), Fender, Gretsch, Rickenbacker etc. and the Harmony and Kay guitars slid back into obscurity.

In the 1950s Barney Kessel went into an endorsement agreement with Kay who named a guitar after him but he later said that it was an awful guitar that he never played except for the ad photos.

I may add that the German Höfner guitars were also used very much in Europe before the more expensive American brands took over the market, but after that the demand for them dropped sharply. Thus I was able to buy a Höfner 456 in good condition in 1968 for next to nothing from a second hand shop.

[GuyBoden]

My first guitar in the 1970's as a teenager was a cheap Kay guitar from Woolworths UK.

It was a terrible guitar, but looked ok.

[Doctor Jeff]

I always thought that most Harmonys and Kays of the era used solid woods and pressed backs and tops.

Their top of the line instruments were on a par with other manufacturers including Epiphone and Gibson, excluding carved tops of course.

The issue with most of the vintage Harmonys/Kays is the neck. They’re generally thick as a baseball bat but tend to bow and get heel separation. Always advisable to check them out in person and see how playable they are.

Here’s my ‘64 Harmony Brilliant Cutaway (pressed top). A perfect guitar in every way with a perfect neck. I added the DA RC1000 RI.

[Doctor Jeff]

BTW, you’re up in the TC area? Home to Willie’s, Lavonne’s and Twin Town?

You ever see Dan Neale play? An old buddy of mine. He was in a trio with Pat Donahue about a month ago—used to fill in for Pat on Prairie Home Companion from time to time. He also plays with Mark Stary a lot—good singer-songwriter in the alt-country vein.

[SlowJoeJones]

I had a 17” Silvertone that had an aftermarket HB routed into the top. The guitar had no truss rod but an outrageously thick neck….sounded great, played great. A great instrument I’m sorry I got rid of.

[John A.]

I don't know guitar values, which might be why this seems like a giveaway to me..

1950's Kay Electric Archtop w/Case + Original Pickup - musical instruments - by owner - sale - craigslist

What a handsome veteran instrument! Under six hundred bucks, in a period case? It's like right out of a Louvin Brothers performance or something..

Do these old Kay archtops just not demand big values?

There are some earlier ones that are legit, good instruments. But by the '50s Kay had become a bargain brand and OEM for department star brands. Most of them were very poorly made, and they mostly sound and play poorly (ditto for Harmony and Stella). They were also typically made without truss rods, so 50-70 years down the road (honestly, 10-20) the necks tend to be a wreck. But some people like them and they've picked up a certain kitschy cachet. They were also used on blues and early rock and roll records (e.g., Jimmy Reed), and if you want that kind of crude sound they're the thing. For $500, there are many used modern entry-level guitars that are much, much better in terms of playability and consistency (even if they don't sound like Jimmy Reed).

[mr. beaumont]

Yes, they are obviously (once you're holding one in your hands) a factory made instrument...but they can be nice.

Mine is late 50's/early 60's, based on what I can find in old catalogs...model pops up around '57, gone by '62, IIRC. It was called the "Master Cutaway" model, appears to have a solid pressed top, laminated back and sides. It has the narrowest nut I think that's legal on a 6 string guitar, and a true "baseball bat" neck profile, round and deep. Couple that with some seriously skinny fretwire, and it is not the easiest guitar to play...but it feels and sounds good for rhythm guitar, so I jacked the action up to about 3.5mm and I think it does the job admirably.

Would have retailed for $75 back in the day, which adjusted for inflation puts it around the cost of a Godin 5th Ave/Kingpin today...which I think is interesting as the Kingpin certainly owes some of it's aesthetic to the old Chicago catalog guitars...

Anyway, here I am playing it. It's a fun guitar.

[WimWalther]

All very interesting, I need more time to read through all of this. But, very briefly, how can I tell a plywood model from one made of solid, carved wood? Are the laminations visible, maybe in the f-holes? Thanks.

[mr. beaumont]

All very interesting, I need more time to read through all of this. But, very briefly, how can I tell a plywood model from one made of solid, carved wood? Are the laminations visible, maybe in the f-holes? Thanks.

Yes, that's probably the easiest way, though some of these guitars are finished rather thickly on that f-hole edge. But if you can see the grain continue, then solid, if it looks like a sandwich, laminated.

Best way is probably to take a small mirror and see if the grain is the same inside as it is outside.

There's also the "light trick," where you take a bright LED style flashlight and put it close to the top and see if the light comes through...but I think I've heard some laminates are made in a way that this can happen too.

[sgosnell]

The value of a guitar is determined by what the market is willing to pay. There are few, or no, buyers willing to pay more for Kay and similar guitars, regardless of quality or materials. If two guitars are for sale, of objectively equal quality, and one has Gibson on the headstock and the other has Kay (or any other name not well-known) then the one branded Gibson will command a far higher price, simply because of the brand name. That's just basic economics, and it's the same with any product of any type. That's why companies have to aggressively protect their brand names and trademarks.

[WimWalther]

The "light trick".. So the idea is that the solid pieces are more translucent than the laminated type?

If so, it's probably due to the way plywood is produced, with alternating grains in successive layers.

[WimWalther]

The value of a guitar is determined by what the market is willing to pay.

Oh, you don't say? ;-)

[unknownguitarplayer]

I had a thing for Kay and National archtops for a while, back when you could buy them for next to nothing. In particular, I was fixated on the ones where the neck was a mahogany shell surrounding a magnesium bar. The heel was very flat (see pic) and you adjusted the neck angle with a hex wrench. Neat concept, except for the fact that the guitars played and sounded terrible. However, the semi-hollows with bolt-on necks were even worse.

[mr. beaumont]

The "light trick".. So the idea is that the solid pieces are more translucent than the laminated type?

If so, it's probably due to the way plywood is produced, with alternating grains in successive layers.

That's my understanding. I'm not sure what would lead some laminates to "trick the trick" so to speak...

[sgosnell]

Some laminates are much thinner than others. I suspect thickness matters, in multiple ways.

[sgosnell]

Oh, you don't say? ;-)

You asked if those archtops just don't demand big values. No, they don't, simply because no one is willing to pay more. They may be decent instruments, but they will never be valuable. I have an Old Kraftsman ES330 copy that belonged to my father,so it's valuable to me, but I might have trouble getting anyone else to take it for free, nevermind paying thousands of dollars for it. I'll just keep it.

[WimWalther]

They may be decent instruments, but they will never be valuable.

Heh, careful.. that's what we all thought about generic, commodity x86 PC hardware from the 90s.. Couldn't give the stuff away, and there were literally tons of it everywhere.

Different story, now..

The way things usually go with collector value is like this: At first, only the high-end, widely-known stuff demands value. But as supplies dwindle, and prices soar, then the next-tier stuff is "rediscovered" and begins to gain status in the market.

This cycle often repeats until even the low-end dreck acquires value.. because everything else is out of reach.

[sgosnell]

If it hasn't increased in value for 75 years or so, further increase is unlikely, IMO. If the headstock says Gibson or Epiphone, the value may increase by a lot. If it says Kay, or another brand built by Kay or its immediate competitors, I don't expect any increase at all, even to keep up with inflation. But I could be wrong. I was wrong once before.

[WimWalther]

While you may very well be right, it's worth considering what's happened with old car values in the last 20+ years.

In the late 90s, 1950s sedans were all but worthless.. nobody wanted them, and you could buy running & driving survivors for $600-$1K.

Not any more.. people are even doing full restorations on 4-door family cars these days.

[John A.]

Heh, careful.. that's what we all thought about generic, commodity x86 PC hardware from the 90s.. Couldn't give the stuff away, and there were literally tons of it everywhere.

Different story, now..

The way things usually go with collector value is like this: At first, only the high-end, widely-known stuff demands value. But as supplies dwindle, and prices soar, then the next-tier stuff is "rediscovered" and begins to gain status in the market.

This cycle often repeats until even the low-end dreck acquires value.. because everything else is out of reach.

I'd say $500 for that Kay reflects a collectors' premium for low-end dreck already.

[sgosnell]

Well, everyone's value judgments can differ from others. If you think Kays will sell for astronomical sums in the future, you're more than welcome to buy as many as you want or can afford. I won't be any competition. Good luck on your investment.