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Thanks, but I sense that you're missing the finer points, here. This isn't about speculating in Kay guitars per se.. just the sometimes very unpredictable nature of the collector's markets.
Originally Posted by sgosnell
In any case, I doubt I'll be around long enough to see where Kay values end up, so that's one market that's safe from my interests.
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01-19-2024 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
If it hasn't increased in value for 75 years or so, further increase is unlikely, IMO. If the headstock says Gibson or Epiphone, the value may increase by a lot. If it says Kay, or another brand built by Kay or its immediate competitors, I don't expect any increase at all, even to keep up with inflation. But I could be wrong. I was wrong once before.
You're all messed up here. It's not like the only difference between a Kay and a Gibson is the name on the headstock. This analogy is so bad, I'm surprised I didn't say it.
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All that needs to happen is for a well-shown Kay to appear in the hands of some hot new star in their viral music video, or in a blockbuster Hollywood film.. and there will be a big old bubble market.
With the ongoing popularity of US-style "rocker" culture in Japan, I'm surprised these "cheap" but stylish, older pieces aren't commanding values driven by that market.
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Get Taylor Swift playing a Kay in a video, and boom!
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Yep, there you go.. point is, there are potentially many different drivers of value in these secondary (and tertiary) markets. Things can change suddenly. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Text is a difficult medium for exchanging information. I didn't say that the only difference between a Kay, Harmony, or whatever, and a Gibson or Epiphone is the name. I was just saying that while Gibson values are exorbitant, IMO, Kay values will never approach those, nor likely even increase. Kay was always known as a budget brand, always will be. And they aren't rare. Scarcity increases prices, no doubt, but Kay et al produced millions of guitars, and many of them are still around today, going for the amazingly high price of $500 or so. Predictions are very difficult, especially of the future, but I predict that future values of Kay guitars will change less than the rate of inflation. Again, I could be wrong, I was once before
, but I'm not putting my retirement account into guitars, neither Kay nor Gibson.
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Kay made some decent and giggable guitars over the years. The Barney Kessel model was $400 in 1959. For comparison, a ‘59 175DN was $305. As I recall, it had a solid top and played pretty well. I was only 13 then, but I’d been playing for 3 years and tried every guitar that came into my dealer’s shop.
FWIW, Norman has a Kay archtop on his site for which he’s asking $3495. There’s really no appropriate comment to add to that.
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$400 in 1959 is like $4K today.. wow. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
So apparently not all Kays were lowly "budget" models! That's some serious cash.. could have bought a nice car for that money.
And IMO that's a very stylish, handsome instrument. Great curb appeal, as we say.
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For many of us, our first encounter with a guitar was a Harmony or Kay. Flattops. They were pervasive because they were massively produced and cheap. IIRC, I was probably 6 or 8 and had a friend who's family had one. I'm sure there are others like me that when they saw anything that they could make a note on would pick it up and give it a try. That's all I can recall about these kinds of instruments. I have no experience with the archtops at that age except hearing them being played on that era's radio's, and those were more likely Gibson's or Epiphones, or Gretch I imagine. Kalamazoo brand comes to mind as one I've also seen as a next tier down from Gibson, and that a major artist or two have used. But I've not encountered them myself.
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Those kay archtops come up often on shopgoodwill.com. if you are patient decent one go cheaper than $500. You could also go the modern version of the same guitar, with a return if needed.
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Sorry, which are those? Originally Posted by Brian859
Anyway, I like old, used stuff. After all, everything else I own is used.. and a lot of it is getting pretty old, too!
I have a pair of Sorel boots that are old enough to be grandparents. =)
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One question about Harmony guitars.. Do we know if these instruments were OEM'd out to retailers?
I'm looking at an ad for a Harmony guitar that's branded "Holiday", wondering if this is the same Holiday as the Holiday Stations & Stores that eventually became Holiday gas stations only?
Iirc, Holiday rebranded Huffy bikes with their name, and I'm thinking they might have done the same with Harmony guitars. Thanks.
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Holiday was a line made by Chicago Musical Instruments for Aldens, a catalogue mail-order company. The designs were based on Harmony guitars.
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Harmony, like Kay, built guitars for other companies, sold under a variety of brand names, including their own. I've seen Old Kraftsman guitars built by both Kay and Harmony, and it's easy to tell the difference by the headstock shapes. Both companies built decent but unspectacular guitars. Some were pretty good, some were just firewood shaped like guitars. The quality varied a lot, but never was higher than pretty good, and you have to search to find those.
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The modern version of that kay is the godin 5th avenue kingpin p90 as shown above. It had a comfortable neck with a truss rod. That one above is for sale on the GC used website. And if you don't like it, you can return it to your local guitar center store. And there is an old harmony archtop up for bids on the goodwill site now. There were several nice kays, harmonys, ect. over the past few weeks that ended. With a little patience, you can find one. Originally Posted by WimWalther
Vintage Harmony Broadway Acoustic Guitar | ShopGoodwill.com
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@Brian
I see, thank you.
Can't say that I'm necessarily in the market for one of these pieces, just more that I knew nothing about them and didn't understand why they seemed so inexpensive, despite being American-made 1950s-60s vintage instruments.
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Kay also made plywood double basses. From a fit and finish standpoint you can say they don't hold a candle to others from that era, but there are legit players who love their tubby sound.
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Thanks, that's a neat piece of info. I'll have to keep an eye (ear?) out for those. Do you know how they were primarily sold - mail order catalog, department stores, music shops? Originally Posted by Krinky
Tubby or not, they must be a few steps up from a gut-strung wash tub & mop handle.. =)
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Nothing wrong with nice old '50s 16" Kay K6835 laminated box in good shape, like this one. Heck, I'll even throw in a pickguard and a hardshell case:
mid-late 1950s Kay Model K6835 16" acoustic archtop guitar
Last edited by Hammertone; 01-31-2024 at 03:37 AM.
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I recall seeing some Kays back in the 60's, and I had a very poor impression of the quality.
Harmony was different in my limited experience. I had the impression that they were decent lower cost guitars. I recall seeing a rock band where the lead guitarist played a Harmony solid body and sounded great.
My teacher played an L5. The guitar he had for students was a Harmony Monterey. Meaning, good enough to do that job but not good enough to worry about.
I worked in a store that couldn't get Fenders or Gibsons but they did get Zim Gars and stuff like that. One of the less known brands they sold was Hagstrom, which I recall as pretty nice guitars for the price.
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I worked in a store that couldn't get Fenders or Gibsons but they did get Zim Gars and stuff like that. One of the less known brands they sold was Hagstrom, which I recall as pretty nice guitars for the price.[/QUOTE]
So did I. In fact, we had decals with the "Zim Gar name" on it to place on unlabelled student guitars.
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Zim Gar.. this was a brand? I'd need to look that up, never heard of it. Though this isn't surprising - back during the golden age of US manufacturing, we built so much stuff of every description in this country that it boggles the mind.
I have a friend who's a long-time wrench and farm implement collector. The number of different firms that built & sold just those items alone is difficult to count, and some had catalogs with dozens or hundreds of items.
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So here's a bit I found interesting. Based on some brief research, it seems that the Harmony guitars which were sold into the UK were marked with the Aldens name.
Can anyone confirm this? I was looking at Harmony models on ebay (they want $$ for that stuff). All of the pieces for sale by UK sellers were marked Aldens, while none of the US examples were.
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Some of the more collectible models from the catalogue brands have seen their prices shoot up a lot in recent years thanks to players like Dan Auerbach, etc. The Harmony H44 Stratotone, Kay K161/Silvertone 1381/1369L Thin Twin, Silvertone 1446 (Chris Isaak), Harmony H62, etc. These are all very popular with players of Americana, Blues, Roots Rock, Jump Blues, etc. Some of these models are now pretty hard to come by. For example, those Harmony H62's and Silvertone Espanada's get snatched up quick by Jump Blues players.
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It was the brand name for instruments sold by the Garfield Zimmerman Instrument Company. Those were the names of the two guys who owned the business, which was in Brooklyn as I recall. They sold contract goods, and I don’t recall ever knowing (or caring) who made them. We all thought they were little more than toys, although I never actually played one - so we might have been snobs Originally Posted by WimWalther
No one I knew growing up ever had a ZimGar guitar, but their bongos were very popular. This was probably because of Maynard G Krebs…..
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