Need new amp

[CliffR]

The Mesa Boogie Studio 22 is a great amp too. The + version came with the same graphic equaliser as the Mk I. (Not sure if both had reverb, or just the +).

[ThatRhythmMan]

It depends on which amps you're talking about. When it comes to Twin Reverbs, from best sounding to worst i'd say it goes:

- Real pre-CBS blackface, very early CBS Silverface (same circuit as BF), or mid-CBS (80 Watt) that has been blackfaced; all about the same, and the differences between one example and another will be due to condition and speakers.
- 65 Reissue (PCB wiring)
- mid-CBS wihout BF mods (I don't like these much)
- Later CBS (the ones that are >100 watts with master volumes and circuits that can't be BF'ed; I really can't stand these)

With Deluxes and Princetons (and also Vibrolux Reverbs), the circuits didn't change nearly as much as with the bigger Fender amps up until the point that Fender stopped making them in the early 80s, and they're all great. The reissues are excellent too. Definitely not garbage, but I do think that original SF's and BF's in good condition are a little better. I've played my 78 PR side by side with a 65 PRRI a lot; mine is louder and bigger sounding, but the 65 PRRI is still a really good sounding amp.

They're all repairable, it's just that PCB-based ones tend to be more expensive to repair than point to point because it takes more time.

I'm looking into that amp now and my perception is that it offers a blackface copy type clean sound, but does have a master volume. Does master volume mess with the organics of the sound?

i've never played through one of those. In general, Mesa master volumes work well because Mesa in general bakes a lot of the tone and distortion into the preamp. Master voiumes in Fender-style amps that have low gain, clean preamp sections tend not to be very useful.


SFAIK, all their models except the very earliest ones are a mix of PCB and hand wiring. In general, they're pretty bullet proof. They're expensive because they use high quality components and construction and pack a ton of features and power into compact packages, and because Mesa also does a lot of product development and research.

The amp techs I know would definitely, wholeheartedly disagree with you on that “bulletproof” adjective to describe Mesa amps. Apparently they generally aren’t much fun to work on either.


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[John A.]

The amp techs I know would definitely, wholeheartedly disagree with you on that “bulletproof” adjective to describe Mesa amps. Apparently they generally aren’t much fun to work on either.


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Hard to work on is true, but there are an awful lot of 30-40 year old boogies out there still alive and kicking. Bulletproof is probably a poor choice of words, since all tube require service and most experience some sort of failure/breakage, but Boogies do pretty well in the wild from what I've seen.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Hard to work on is true, but there are an awful lot of 30-40 year old boogies out there still alive and kicking. Bulletproof is probably a poor choice of words, since all tube require service and most experience some sort of failure/breakage, but Boogies do pretty well in the wild from what I've seen.

No doubt lots of them still out there. I know nothing about amp circuitry, but a major complaint that I’ve heard is that the component routing isn’t always optimal, leading to extraneous noise issues. I’m not anti-Mesa, but I’ve pretty much always found something else I prefer over their amps from clean to insane high gain.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The amp techs I know would definitely, wholeheartedly disagree with you on that “bulletproof” adjective to describe Mesa amps. Apparently they generally aren’t much fun to work on either.

But techs only see the ones that need something. I’ve known many Boogie owners, and none of the simple ones (Boogies, not owners ) had any repair issues beyond the occasional tube replacement. Besides the Mk 1, I’ve had a Subway Blues, a .50 Caliber, a first gen Walkabout, and a .22 Caliber. None had any issues except the Walkabout, which was built like a cheap toy - the input jack was secured only to the board, and it broke out. I bought the smaller ones hoping to find one that could sub for the 65 pound monster - but none could.

They’re not as easy to work on as Twins, Princetons and the like. But the cluttered ones are the complex ones. There’s so much cr@p inside a Mk 4 that I don’t know how they get fixed. The only problem with access on an original 1x12 narrow cab Boogie is that the chassis is a little small for the amount of stuff inside. With the optional fan inside, it runs very cool. So component degradation from heat is not a major issue. Mine had a Rotron Whisperfan in it that was inaudible.

[wintermoon]

Nothing against Mesas but I can't remember the last time I saw one in use.
I'd stick w something like a Fender, if you don't like it for some reason it'll be a much easier sell down the road

[John A.]

No doubt lots of them still out there. I know nothing about amp circuitry, but a major complaint that I’ve heard is that the component routing isn’t always optimal, leading to extraneous noise issues. I’m not anti-Mesa, but I’ve pretty much always found something else I prefer over their amps from clean to insane high gain.


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I've never owned a Mesa amp (though I did have a V-Twin pre-amp for a while, which was great), but I've played through many in studios, borrowing other peoples', etc. There are a few I like and would be happy owning, but the stars never aligned as far as one turning up at a price I could pay at the moment when I was amp shopping goes. Not on my radar these days because I'm headed in another direction altogether amp-wise.

[Jabberwocky]

For my money, the Milkman The Amp 50 and a Raezer's Edge Mini6 or Mini8 hit all the right spots. Listen to Hideo Date:

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Nothing against Mesas but I can't remember the last time I saw one in use.

There's a very good reason for that - they've gotten crazy expensive and are simply not worth the money to most players. The Mark VII 1x12 combo is about $4k. The 25W Rectoverb 1x12 is $2100 and the 50W Badlander 1x12 is a hair under $3k. Welcome to the weird, wacky, wonderful world of Gibson in the 21st century.

Used original Mk 1s are out there at asking prices of $3k to $4k and above, which is even more insane than it is for new ones. So I can't imagine that any sensible player would want one instead of the many great amps out there for far less money (including your beloved Twin). Any amp over 60 pounds and $2k has to be an ideal combination of sound and value to be considered by more than a handful of players today.

[John A.]

There's a very good reason for that - they've gotten crazy expensive and are simply not worth the money to most players. The Mark VII 1x12 combo is about $4k. The 25W Rectoverb 1x12 is $2100 and the 50W Badlander 1x12 is a hair under $3k. Welcome to the weird, wacky, wonderful world of Gibson in the 21st century.

Used original Mk 1s are out there at asking prices of $3k to $4k and above, which is even more insane than it is for new ones. So I can't imagine that any sensible player would want one instead of the many great amps out there for far less money (including your beloved Twin). Any amp over 60 pounds and $2k has to be an ideal combination of sound and value to be considered by more than a handful of players today.

They've also never really been marketed toward or sought by jazz players (other than people at the more fusion-y end of the spectrum). But I forgot the big G bought them, so yeah, there's that too.

[Hammertone]

I regularly use a Mesa TA-30 lunchbox head with various cabs. It's small, light, has useful power scaling (15w, 30w, 40w), two channels, spring reverb, and some very useful voices (Vox, Vox Top Boost, Fender Tweed, Marshall, Mesa). It's set up more for live playing than studio playing, IMO. I think it's a great Swiss Army amp. Cheap used, since no one knows anything about it and it looks a bit different form the usual Mesa fare. And dead-easy to adjust live on the gig. I tend to run one side clean and the other side dirty. Too much fun!

[rpjazzguitar]

I gigged with a Boogie Mark III for some years.

I'd get it adjusted and it would sound terrific.

But heaven forbid if I needed to re-adjust to, say, the club filling up and the sound of the room changing. I'd think, "I need a touch more treble" and I'd end up having to adjust every knob. That's only a small exaggeration.

[bluejaybill]

That is good information. That would drive me nuts. That may have just taken MB off the table. I spoke to Louis at Louis Electric today on the phone and he explained that his Deltone Reverb is basically a Deluxe/Twin Reverb blended because it has a mid control like the twins have. Althogh he uses a tube powered rectifier rather than SS rectifier like the fenders, but said he can build it with a ss rectefier just like the fender and make an exact clone... this is tempting - especially becase he is local here in nyc

Does anyone have experience with his amps? Louis Electric. Are they high quality? For the price point - Mid 2k's

I have heard great things about the Louis amps, you should roll out to NJ and check them out in person. I have a Fat Jimmy that is conceptually very similar to those.

I don't think you need a SS rectifier on that amp, Deluxe Reverbs always had a tube. They sound great, a classic amp. A Louis amp will probably be more "stout" than vintage one. Meaning louder and less "saggy" than an original.

[Jabberwocky]

The Louis Electric amps are very nice. But a more cost effective way is to buy a B-stock Fender DRRI and ship it to George Alessandro to have the PCB replaced with a handwired hardwired turret-board with discrete components. I think I paid George $600. George said that the Fender Schumacher transformers are very nice already. If you wish to have them changed I recommend Soursound transformers.

[Litterick]

How many more amps would I own, if we had a B-stock market in my country?

[ccroft]

Just another shout-out for Mesa. I've been playing them for a long time.

Got a 100 watt Mark nuttin' in '76 which I gigged around 20 hours a week for 10 years. I never heard about it being hard to service since it never needed servicing. I've also never understood the whole 'hard to dial in' thing. Clearly a simpler amp than the newer ones though.

Traded that in for a Studio 22+ in around '92 for obvious reasons. I still have it, but I prefer the ToneBlock202 these days. Might very well be the Mesa is better suited to the Les Paul fusion thing I was doing in the 70's. It was also great for the art-rock East Village odd-ball solid-body thing I was doing in the 80's.

The 100 watt was pt to pt. The 22+ is pcb, but the pots and jacks are mounted on the chassis. Solid build. Sort of a hybrid I guess. I had a bit of modding done to it and my guy was able to work on the pcb.

[JazzIsGood]

Never thought I'd see a Mesa Boogie thread on a jazz guitar forum! I used to want one of those dual rectifier stacks when I played nu metal in the 90s. Too expenxive tho, so I settled for a Peavy.

Wow the prices quoted by NeverShouldHaveSoldIt are pretty nuts! I was just starting to think "hmm maybe I should try one" when that post made me NOT want to try one....cause I might like it....and then I might buy 4 of them.

Well what's the verdict op?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Never thought I'd see a Mesa Boogie thread on a jazz guitar forum!

Keep in mind that it's never been easy to make a living as a jazz guitarist. Many (if not most) of the top local and regional jazz musicians from the late 1940s until now played whatever they could to make a living. And few could afford multiple amplifiers for different gigs. The early Boogies were great general purpose amps. Like many working musicians of the day, I used my '70s HunRee for jazz dates, weddings, commercial gigs, blues festivals, and everything else that came along - and it was fantastic. They were / are durable, reliable, and versatile enough for any setting. I even played keyboard or bass through it when helping out other bands.

Many pop hits were recorded by name jazz guitarists over the years, more than a few under pseudonyms. Frank Virtue's original group backed Rosemary Clooney, Patti Page, June CHristy and many others before "resorting" to rock and roll. Their biggest hit was Guitar Boogie Shuffle, and their lead guitarist was none other than Jimmy Bruno Sr. Mickey Baker was half of Mickey and Sylvia. Phil Upchurch made some great pop music. I still think his version of You Can't Sit Down is the best one ever recorded. After paying his dues for a while, he was able to do it on multiple guitars and amps appropriate to the needs. But those of us who never made it to that level had to make do with less (or just lesser) stuff, and a Boogie 1x12 was enough for so many.

Upchurch could easily have made all of these with a simple Boogie -

[Stringswinger]

I have had a bunch of tube amps over the years. Mostly Fenders and Mesas (and dialed in, a Mesa can sound great for all kinds of jazz guitar). I have also had Vox, Kustom, Marshall and Crate tube amps. I still have a tube amp, a 1964 Noverb Princeton. I think I keep it out of nostalgia more than anything. I have three Class D Henriksens which do almost every gig I play and a Quilter (which would be my choice for a rock, blues or fusion gig, if I ever do another gig of that sort which is doubtful at this point).

I get that there is a difference between solid state and tube tone and that Quilters or Tonemasters do not get you to a 100 percent tube amp tone. I also think that the vintage Fender tube amps (and their handwired custom shop offerings of more modern times) sound better than the PCB board reissues. If I was looking for one amp and it had to have that classic Fender tube amp sound, I would look for a vintage (pre 1970) Fender amp (Twin, Pro or Deluxe) and have it serviced by a top notch tech and loaded with a top notch speaker and some NOS American made tubes. I would also buy a supply of NOS tubes to keep it going for a decade or two. This would not be the cheapest way to go, but it will get you to a no compromise sound and will retain it's value better than any other offering. With high quality gear, the price is soon forgotten, while the quality is enjoyed over the long term.

To the OP, good luck in your choice.

[SierraTango]

I was amp shopping and my local dealer had a Fillmore 25 in stock. I was really looking for a small grab and go amp and ended up with a Fender Champion 20, however I did have a chance to play my Pisano 880 through the Fillmore and was absolutely knocked out by it. Fab clean tones, although I didn't try any dirt, I'm sure it could do that very well.

I'm aware that the OP is looking for a tube amp, however just to be contrary, I'm throwing Evans amps into the mix here. Specifically the RE300 model. 26 lbs, 300 watts of American made goodness. Plus superb customer service from Scot the owner. I have been gigging with my JE200 for many years and it's been rock solid. Some folks refer to them as the Mesa Boogie of SS amps, it takes some tweeking to get your sound, but it can sound very, very tube amp Fender-ish if that's the goal.

Mimi Fox putting a Fillmore 25 to good use here.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'm throwing Evans amps into the mix here. Specifically the RE300 model. 26 lbs, 300 watts of American made goodness. Plus superb customer service from Scot the owner. I have been gigging with my JE200 for many years and it's been rock solid. Some folks refer to them as the Mesa Boogie of SS amps, it takes some tweeking to get your sound, but it can sound very, very tube amp Fender-ish if that's the goal.

+1! I’ve had 2 and loved them both. I even got a call from them about a week after I bought each one, asking me if I was happy with it. I discovered them when Jimmy Bruno was using one. He changed endorsements like we change our clothes back then, so he left them for another. But Ron Eschete (one of my favorite players and a major reason I switched to 7 strings) has used Evans amps for many years.

[NYC]

I bought a very very very good condition and well preserved '64 twin reverb blackface that I found for sale listed here in NYC. Its great. Very glad i finally figured this out. Thanks to all

[st.bede]

I bought a very very very good condition and well preserved '64 twin reverb blackface that I found for sale listed here in NYC. Its great. Very glad i finally figured this out. Thanks to all

That is a great amp. Good find.