Acoustic Archtop Tone

[Hammertone]

Unusual f-holes for a Comins. Backstory?

This one was custom ordered at the same time as the Chinery blue and that were made at the same time. I got it from the original owner and sent it back to Bill Comins for some restoration work. It was reunited with the Chinery guitar in Bill’s workshop as he was doing the same work on it.

Ahhh, 1995 (as marked on the barely visible label) - early enough for Bill's f-holes to still be a work in progress.

[Hammertone]

The only way to understand acoustic archtop tone is to experience it live as a player and as a listener, IMO. Today was a bit of fun - a few '30s fully-carved archtops being compared. The '37 S-400 is out of frame. Four completely different-sounding guitars. Too much fun, actually, but still legal.

[ThatRhythmMan]

The only way to understand acoustic archtop tone is to experience it live as a player and as a listener, IMO. Today was a bit of fun - a few '30s fully-carved archtops being compared. The '37 S-400 is out of frame. Four completely different-sounding guitars. Too much fun, actually, but still legal.

How did that Ward guitar hold up against those heavy hitters?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hammertone]

How did that Ward guitar hold up against those heavy hitters?

The '30s Gibson-built Montgomery Ward is an interesting guitar.
-16" wide
-24 3/4" scale
-medium-sized v-shaped mahogany neck, non-elevated rosewood board
-parallel braced, kerfed
-carved spruce top
-carved mahogany back
-mahogany rims (3 11/16" deep at the neck end, 4" deep at the butt end)
-unique fan inlays in the neck.

It sounds very similar to many of the pre-Advanced 16" Gibson L-5 / L-7 / L-10 / L-12 archtops. Unlike most of the other ghost-built Gibsons from Cromwell, Kalamazoo, and so forth, which typically have pressed plates, this MW has carved plates and extra-deep rims. Certainly not as loud or as complex as the '38 Epi Triumph or the '38 D'A Excel, it nevertheless held its own quite nicely. Predictably less bass response, well-balanced sound, good mid-range punch and treble response, but an excellent guitar nonetheless, IMO. Great way to get into that style of guitar for under $2,000.

[RJVB]

It sounds very similar to many of the pre-Advanced 16" Gibson L-5 / L-7 / L-10 / L-12 archtops.

That's to be expected given the design, no?
Looks like a nicely comfortable wide nut, too - 1.75" or even more than that? Always hard to tell with a short scale length like that (which is also one of the things I like about my Loar which is essentially a clone of that same family).

Certainly not as loud or as complex as the '38 Epi Triumph or the '38 D'A Excel, it nevertheless held its own quite nicely. Predictably less bass response, well-balanced sound, good mid-range punch and treble response, but an excellent guitar nonetheless, IMO. Great way to get into that style of guitar for under $2,000.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Is that due to the hog B&S or also to the top being too thick?

[Gilpy]

Joe

You aren't kidding the player nails it ! And that's a 15 inch instrument ? The builder's site shows what seem to be stock / low-option instruments attractively priced and very well made. And that sound ! Has anyone here ever played one ?
Is that my music room I hear calling to me and telling me there's room for another ?? : )

Take care Joe!

Dennis

The Rancourt in that clip has been mine for several years. It has a wonderful tone and is responsive to the lightest touch. It has an amazing dynamic range and retains it’s open sound at any volume. And it’s easy to play. Although it has a K&K pickup, I never plug it in.
After I had it a little while, I sold my other very nice hand-made archtops. They just weren’t getting played.

[RJVB]

The Rancourt in that clip has been mine for several years. It has a wonderful tone and is responsive to the lightest touch.

Don't hesitate to add more proof

[FourOnSix]

The Rancourt in that clip has been mine for several years. It has a wonderful tone and is responsive to the lightest touch. It has an amazing dynamic range and retains it’s open sound at any volume. And it’s easy to play. Although it has a K&K pickup, I never plug it in.
After I had it a little while, I sold my other very nice hand-made archtops. They just weren’t getting played.

I remember in a PM a few years ago you said you had a Rancourt on order. That guitar sounds mighty sweet!

[Hammertone]

It sounds very similar to many of the pre-Advanced 16" Gibson L-5 / L-7 / L-10 / L-12 archtops. Unlike most of the other ghost-built Gibsons from Cromwell, Kalamazoo, and so forth, which typically have pressed plates, this MW has carved plates and extra-deep rims. Certainly not as loud or as complex as the '38 Epi Triumph or the '38 D'A Excel, it nevertheless held its own quite nicely. Predictably less bass response, well-balanced sound, good mid-range punch and treble response, but an excellent guitar nonetheless, IMO. Great way to get into that style of guitar for under $2,000.

That's to be expected given the design, no?
Looks like a nicely comfortable wide nut, too - 1.75" or even more than that? Always hard to tell with a short scale length like that (which is also one of the things I like about my Loar which is essentially a clone of that same family). ...

Nut width is 1 3/4". Neck profile is a medium-sized V - quite comfortable, IMO.

Is that due to the hog B&S or also to the top being too thick?...

The top is not too thick - it's quite similar in thickness to various other '30s carved-top guitars that I have examined. IMO, the mahogany back affects the tone and probably warms it up a bit, but, to your first point, the design (16" non-cut deep-bodied, carved archtop) is the key factor. Smaller guitars simply do not sound like bigger guitars.

[gitman]

You all need to check out this guy Vilray from NYC - an absolute gem, not only because he is a really good guitarist with a great sound on his vintage EPI DELUXE but also because of his stellar songwriting, singing and whistling !!!!

vilray on Instagram: "ONCE WAS A BUSKER, loved sweating or freezing playing this undersung Irving Berlin gem at several different tempos between trains"

vilray on Instagram: "@jacobrexzimmerman whirled into town for our Brooklyn celebration of the release of 'I Love A Love Song!'. So of course I twisted his arm and had him read down my hat-tip to the Duke's Queen Suite that I call Fanfare for a Queen."

[coyote-1]

I just did a head-to-head comparison to a single-cutaway dreadnought that I have. It’s not a flawless comparison, as the AR610ce (single cutaway, 3 18” deep, solid spruce top, solid mahogany back and sides) has flatwounds and the dreadnought has roundwounds, but it’s useful nonetheless.

Played individually, the biggest tonal difference is not on the low E and A strings, nor on the high E and B. The big difference is in the D and G strings. That’s where the dreadnought gets its fullness. And then when you strum an open chord, you can hear that in effect.

The AR610ce though, while not being quite as full sounding, does have a very acoustic richness. It’s not a big band archtop like the maple side/back instruments. It functions more than well enough both for “jazz chords” and soloing, and for strumming & singing old folk songs.

[powerwagonjohn]

I find this an interesting conversation and that's why I come here. I especially like the old Epiphone content. I have had my 1952 Gibson L-4 for 12 years now and it is definitely a keeper. But I was not prepared for the tonal difference in the old Epiphones. I found a 1952 Zenith a few years ago that needs some work and is also a great guitar with it's own thing going. But my 1950 Triumph really put a smile on my face and has only been in it's case a couple times since I bought it last spring. I bought it for the "experience" and it has been that and more. I can not put it down. I am using nickel bronze round wound strings, I did try my old DeArmond 1000 on it but I like it as an acoustic much better. Life is good.
Thanks john

[Max405]

The Rancourt in that clip has been mine for several years. It has a wonderful tone and is responsive to the lightest touch. It has an amazing dynamic range and retains it’s open sound at any volume. And it’s easy to play. Although it has a K&K pickup, I never plug it in.
After I had it a little while, I sold my other very nice hand-made archtops. They just weren’t getting played.

Gilpy,
I’m glad you love that guitar. I would too!
I found it have extraordinary range.
Sometimes you find a guitar that changes your plans. Great stuff.
Joe D

[coyote-1]

>>Must be the thickness/shaping of the top.

No. Look a the neck heel. See how it small it is. It save lots of weight and helps make the instruments more balanced

Is it possible that the old Gibsons et al were built with old-growth wood, and that’s one of the elements making the sonic difference?

[RancourtGuitars]

Joe

You aren't kidding the player nails it ! And that's a 15 inch instrument ? The builder's site shows what seem to be stock / low-option instruments attractively priced and very well made. And that sound ! Has anyone here ever played one ?
Is that my music room I hear calling to me and telling me there's room for another ?? : )

Take care Joe!

Dennis

Thank you so much for the kind words Dennis! haha, and good humour!
Best regards,
G.

[RJVB]

stock / low-option instruments attractively priced

The only one fitting that description I see currently is the keeping-yourself-warm instrument aka t-shirt but in that category I'd really want the turtle-neck option

The other instruments currently on the site are indeed attractive (but sadly for me priced as I'd expect).

[RancourtGuitars]

The only one fitting that description I see currently is the keeping-yourself-warm instrument aka t-shirt but in that category I'd really want the turtle-neck option

The other instruments currently on the site are indeed attractive (but sadly for me priced as I'd expect).

Hahaha!
I don't have any stock instruments on the website for now. But I have to upgrade the website soon.

I do have guitars coming available on my Reverb Boutique every now and then.

For custom orders, I do have a base model for my 15-16" options. It is the Standard Signature model. Around 6k

Same build quality and materials but stripped down in terms of esthetic details and less upgrade options.

That's one of those that I finished for a player this summer.


Best regards,

Guillaume

[RJVB]

For custom orders, I do have a base model for my 15-16" options. It is the Standard Signature model. Around 6k

Yeah, even I would call that (almost) attractive, at least if I lived in Canada. (Still don't have that kind of money to put in a guitar though )

[jads57]

So although still not inexpensive,I get spending $10 k on a bespoke Hand Carved instrument vs a solid body guitar say from Fender

[joman50]

mic setup could have been better with some EQ and light compression

[Rickco]

Great comparison of three iconic archtops, of course you cant really compare sounds on a utube but that said Im wondering why Bryant named his Broadway. I have a '35 Epi Broadway (walnut model) that sounds more like the DA in the video and easily compares to any of the archtops mentioned, I also thought I saw a Trenier Broadway with walnut body for sale now cant find it but it seems it would resemble an Epi more than Gib. The one that fits my hand the best would be my choice, I find them all equal but different.

[m_d]

You all need to check out this guy Vilray from NYC - an absolute gem, not only because he is a really good guitarist with a great sound on his vintage EPI DELUXE but also because of his stellar songwriting, singing and whistling !!!!

vilray on Instagram: "ONCE WAS A BUSKER, loved sweating or freezing playing this undersung Irving Berlin gem at several different tempos between trains"

vilray on Instagram: "@jacobrexzimmerman whirled into town for our Brooklyn celebration of the release of 'I Love A Love Song!'. So of course I twisted his arm and had him read down my hat-tip to the Duke's Queen Suite that I call Fanfare for a Queen."

Absolutely love Vilray. He's amazing. He takes you back decades in time, but it's a timeless sound.

[Marty Grass]

One of my favorites played on an amplified flattop. Probably not my favorite top, but the passion is apparent.

I know I'm in the minority, but the acoustic archtop jazz guitar seems a bit too bright when played acoustically. This is personal preference. It sounds infinitly better amplified for chord melody and of course for single note solos.

Acoustically the flattop wins.

[mrwoland]

I play acoustic archtops, so I have some videos for you:

[skykomishone]

MG,
The last one is definitely the best looking guitar of the bunch.
I thought the guitar she is playing sounded like a poor example, and also not quite in tune. I find that tuning and intonation on classical guitars can be challenging. Although the last one I picked up surprised me in that respect, thank you 2B!