Acoustic Archtop Tone

[cmajor9]

L5OEF15 - Thanks for a great pair of posts! Exactly right that the L-5, like every other instrument in early jazz ensembles, was ‘borrowed’ from a different purpose. For the brass and sax, it was marching bands; for the L-5 and other archtops, mandolin orchestras.

[L50EF15]

I would be remiss if I didn’t add a few more examples, including some examples of plectrum guitar, or archtop classical, by Johnny Smith:

I am not sure what guitar he’s using here, but it could have been an Epiphone Emperor Concert, of which only three are known to exist: Epiphone Emperor Concert Arch Top Acoustic Guitar (1949) | RetroFret

Lang, of course, prefigured this:

And of course, I have to mention a modern master of prewar jazz guitar, Jonathan Stout. Compare the sound here on a 1932 “16 L5,

with a genuine Lloyd Loar signed version from 1924:

https://youtube.com/shorts/MUUntrV30...9hTLhqMtE0966L

and a 1939 L5 (the “Advanced” L5, with a 17” lower bout and X bracing instead of the traditional parallel bracing):

https://youtu.be/7uE7JEH5718?si=2FA4GnbqThxqoT-v

And here, with a 1928 (oval sound hole 16” lower bout, parallel braced) L4:

The L4, consistent with the Lang/Ventuti recording upthread, has more bass than the L5 to my ears, but it does not give up anything in clarity. I have a theory that players used to steel string flattops, especially Martin style dreadnoughts, would get along with an oval or round hole archtop like an L4 or L75 better than an L5 or other f hole for that reason. It’s like a dread with more clarity.

Yes, I am plotting and saving to get an L4 or L75… I even emailed Gibson to see about custom ordering an archtop version of a J45. That would be interesting, but it seems that it can’t be done.

Finally, Selmer and Selmer-Maccaferri guitars were mentioned upthread. Django Reinhardt’s unaccompanied pieces using a Selmer petit bouche are fascinating to compare with the American archtop sound:

I think both types are more versatile than they’re often pigeonholed.

[Archie]

[QUOTE=daverepair;1285192]

’Very difficult to get round the horrendous string screeching on archtops with acoustic strings.
I think the Maccaferi is still the superior instrument for this type of thing.’

As one who uses bronze strings on my vintage Epis, I must beg to differ with ‘horrendous string screeching on archtops with acoustic strings’.

To each his/her own, of course! I find the bronze strings to give great tone to these instruments(as acoustics), much stronger than nickel. But then, I’m playing in the earlier style of Lang, Lonnie Johnson, Teddy Bunn, or a modern player like Matt Munisteri, to name just a few.

I agree that a Selmer style guitar(the later petite bouche is what I’m familiar with) is indeed excellent for vintage acoustic jazz: it’s volume and cut seems superior to my cherished Epiphones, although the tone of the Epis is more ‘full’, IMO.

I don’t disagree with you. I use bronze strings on one of my acoustic Archtops and it sounds much better but… the string screeching is horrendous.
It’s just part of the trade off.
I can’t help feel and would like input from luthiers that the focused sound and Archtop brings, also focuses the sound of the strings when being vibrated by skin.
As if the finger moving up and down the fretboard, is acting like a bow.

Do try a D-hole Maccaferi, they are a much more complete solo instrument. The petite bouche is better for ‘soloing’ in a mix. The D is better for when playing solo. It’s much warmer and with a deeper sound but also with that characteristic attack you expect.
Django used one in his early days.

Here is a wonderful account of Django and his guitar from a young Englishmen that played with Django

Django’s Selmer | Gypsy Jazz UK

[Peter C]

Just trying to figure out how you're strumming that cutaway Epiphone with the controls mounted in the f-hole.

[Max405]

Truly an exception to the rule : a D'Aquisto in the hands of a MASTER ...

I particularly like this one. The notes stay bloomed for a longer period of time. Perhaps its the players technique helping it along a bit, but this is the 1st time I've ever heard this in a guitar. Thats incredible.
JD

[Chris236]

Just trying to figure out how you're strumming that cutaway Epiphone with the controls mounted in the f-hole.

I don’t play chords with the pick much. It’s kind of a lost art though - love the way early Jim Hall did….Dutch fellow Martin Van Der Grinton (sp?) is a master of it too. Triumph’s of course work great for that but it’s the fat, loud, focused single note sound that keeps me coming back.

[Max405]

This is my Rancourt 15" archtop (not me playing it!) It's strictly an acoustic instrument.
By far, the nicest sounding archtop I've played. It is somewhat non-traditional in materials and construction: Cedar top, Peruvian walnut back and sides, top braces carved from the top plates, side sound port.
It's my favorite guitar, good for any style of music.

Wowsy wow-wow! That guitar sounds HUGE! And I'm Old Fashioned was played with surgical precision by the player.
This, I believe is one of those songs Johnny Recorded acoustically on the Legends Album that Deacon was writing about. This guitar and the player nails it perfectly. On a 15" guitar.. Incredible.
JD

[Max405]

The "Autumn" instrument as played by Anthony [at 3:50] seems, to me, the absolutely perfect acoustic archtop tone.

AKA

AKA, I agree. I never really LISTENED to these guitars before. It is so great so hear them masterfully played. The limitless complexity of these are really unlocked by a player like Anthony. That was a real treat.
AKA, you started a GREAT thread. Thanks buddy.
JD

[TAA]

Chris. #122,

Great follow-up to the pelican, thanks!

“45 Triumph I recently picked up. The CC floater is interesting…I kinda like it but probably not enough to to keep me from swapping it out for a HB.”

FWIW I ordered a 1967 L-5C with a single Johnny Smith pickup. Played it for gigs through 1971 and then sent it back to Gibson to have a single HB pickup installed. This guitar was sold in 1982. Memory time here….when it came back from Gibson, at the time, I thought it sounded better with the JS pickup. But that was just me, only 52-years ago! Was it the pickup itself, was it the (3) holes cut into the top (pickup and two controls), who knows?

Tom

[ThatRhythmMan]

[QUOTE=Archie;1285233]

I don’t disagree with you. I use bronze strings on one of my acoustic Archtops and it sounds much better but… the string screeching is horrendous.
It’s just part of the trade off.
I can’t help feel and would like input from luthiers that the focused sound and Archtop brings, also focuses the sound of the strings when being vibrated by skin.
As if the finger moving up and down the fretboard, is acting like a bow.

Do try a D-hole Maccaferi, they are a much more complete solo instrument. The petite bouche is better for ‘soloing’ in a mix. The D is better for when playing solo. It’s much warmer and with a deeper sound but also with that characteristic attack you expect.
Django used one in his early days.

Here is a wonderful account of Django and his guitar from a young Englishmen that played with Django

Django’s Selmer | Gypsy Jazz UK

Have you tried coated strings like Elixir Nanoweb? The coating can cut down on string noise tremendously. Otherwise technique adjustments are the only thing that helps.


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[Chris236]

Chris. #122,

Great follow-up to the pelican, thanks!

“45 Triumph I recently picked up. The CC floater is interesting…I kinda like it but probably not enough to to keep me from swapping it out for a HB.”

FWIW I ordered a 1967 L-5C with a single Johnny Smith pickup. Played it for gigs through 1971 and then sent it back to Gibson to have a single HB pickup installed. This guitar was sold in 1982. Memory time here….when it came back from Gibson, at the time, I thought it sounded better with the JS pickup. But that was just me, only 52-years ago! Was it the pickup itself, was it the (3) holes cut into the top (pickup and two controls), who knows?

Tom

Tom - I had an L7P that also had HB‘rs routed into the top….at a funny angle (to avoid the bracing I guess.) It was another one on the list of guitars I should have kept! I’m probably gonna replace that CC with a floating HB similar to what’s on the lighter finished guitar, however.

[TAA]

Chris,

This is what I have today on my ‘52 L-5C, a Biltoft CC replica. The pickup has a RH bracket that is glued to the underside of the pickguard. So far I like it. I thought about replacing it with my original ‘67 JS single pup but not enough room under the bottom end of the fingerboard.

Tom

[Chris236]

Chris,

This is what I have today on my ‘52 L-5C, a Biltoft CC replica. The pickup has a RH bracket that is glued to the underside of the pickguard. So far I like it. I thought about replacing it with my original ‘67 JS single pup but not enough room under the bottom end of the fingerboard.

Tom

Yep - same pick up that’s on the triumph but with the neck mounting bracket.

[D'Aquisto Fan]

I particularly like this one. The notes stay bloomed for a longer period of time. Perhaps its the players technique helping it along a bit, but this is the 1st time I've ever heard this in a guitar. Thats incredible.
JD

I agree, Joe. I wonder specifically what D'Aquisto is being played here?

[wintermoon]

I agree, Joe. I wonder specifically what D'Aquisto is being played here?

late 80s NYer iirc

[D'Aquisto Fan]

late 80s NYer iirc

Thanks! It does sound great.

[Chris236]

Chris,

This is what I have today on my ‘52 L-5C, a Biltoft CC replica. The pickup has a RH bracket that is glued to the underside of the pickguard. So far I like it. I thought about replacing it with my original ‘67 JS single pup but not enough room under the bottom end of the fingerboard.

Tom

and by the way, nice guitar! Pete will make you a floating HB under 10 mm. Worked for me in a similar situation.

[TAA]

Chris,

Not too sure I need a HB pup. No more gigging, competing with a drummer, etc. Just selfish lower volume home entertainment doodling. Comments about Biltoft say he sends two sets of magnets but I didn’t get a second magnet. However, maybe this particular pup doesn’t lend itself to switching magnets.

Tom

[ThatRhythmMan]

Chris,

Not too sure I need a HB pup. No more gigging, competing with a drummer, etc. Just selfish lower volume home entertainment doodling. Comments about Biltoft say he sends two sets of magnets but I didn’t get a second magnet. However, maybe this particular pup doesn’t lend itself to switching magnets.

Tom

That’s correct. You can’t really swap out the magnets in these CC type floaters. He will make this one with the magnet your choice though, and he’s done one at just 8 mm thick for me. I ended up not needing it so thin for the guitar it ended up on rather than it’s originally intended destination, but it sounds just great.




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[TAA]

Rman,

Very nice photo! That’s the nice thing about this forum….the nice photos all of us are treated to!

Looks like yours is glued to the underside like mine. I only have a volume control, so I adjust the tone on the 1953 Gibson GA-20 amp with a single tone control…no separate bass and treble knobs!

I scratched my head quite a bit before I ordered it. Big interest was the clearance available under the strings. I did a mockup with various thicknesses of white styrene glued together with MEK. Found a thickness that appeared to work and sent Pete a photo. He said his thinnest model would work so that’s what I ordered. Didn’t know enough about pup magnets to tell Pete what I wanted, so he made the choice. You can see in the first photo that the clearance worked out pretty good.

Tom

[Dennis D]

Wowsy wow-wow! That guitar sounds HUGE! And I'm Old Fashioned was played with surgical precision by the player.
This, I believe is one of those songs Johnny Recorded acoustically on the Legends Album that Deacon was writing about. This guitar and the player nails it perfectly. On a 15" guitar.. Incredible.
JD

Joe

You aren't kidding the player nails it ! And that's a 15 inch instrument ? The builder's site shows what seem to be stock / low-option instruments attractively priced and very well made. And that sound ! Has anyone here ever played one ?
Is that my music room I hear calling to me and telling me there's room for another ?? : )

Take care Joe!

Dennis

[Hammertone]

That’s correct. You can’t really swap out the magnets in these CC type floaters. He will make this one with the magnet your choice though, and he’s done one at just 8 mm thick for me. I ended up not needing it so thin for the guitar it ended up on rather than it’s originally intended destination, but it sounds just great.

Unusual f-holes for a Comins. Backstory?

[xavierbarcelo]

Joe

You aren't kidding the player nails it ! And that's a 15 inch instrument ? The builder's site shows what seem to be stock / low-option instruments attractively priced and very well made. And that sound ! Has anyone here ever played one ?
Is that my music room I hear calling to me and telling me there's room for another ?? : )

Take care Joe!

Dennis

Rancourt guitars are amazing, are they not?

Here’s the same player with another 15 inch guitar. Amazing tones, in my view!

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[ThatRhythmMan]

Unusual f-holes for a Comins. Backstory?

This one was custom ordered at the same time as the Chinery blue and that were made at the same time. I got it from the original owner and sent it back to Bill Comins for some restoration work. It was reunited with the Chinery guitar in Bill’s workshop as he was doing the same work on it.




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[RJVB]

Wowsy wow-wow! That guitar sounds HUGE!

Not to suggest anything bad about Rancourt guitars, but can't just about any guitar sound huge on a recording.
(I listened to the recording again through small notebook speakers while reading other messages in the thread, and do think the player seems to be trying to push the guitar a bit too hard in places.)

I would be remiss if I didn’t add a few more examples, including some examples of plectrum guitar, or archtop classical, by Johnny Smith:

Nice! Many of the old recordings of those players are hard to bear in terms of sound quality and absolutely not the reference for how beautiful an acoustic archtop can sound I'd pursue. Glad I clicked rather randomly on this one!