Acoustic Archtop Tone

[AKA]

Yes!

Here is an example of Pasquale doing some Masterclass teaching on an 18” Trenier.

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[AKA]

I find that playing a nice acoustic archtop is a significant reward in and of itself. An upper bout soundport enhances the experience for me.

I also enjoy enhancing the acoustic tone with a bit of the amp’d sound, similar to the approach Jim Hall used sometimes when comping.

[deacon Mark]

I remember Johnny Smith saying he only wanted 20 frets on his guitar otherwise the pickup would be right over where he picks. That might be the only thing I have in common with the "The Great One." I find the best tone right at the end of fingerboard and over the pickup. QAman has it down on one of his points. I also find that certain pickups give me more trouble than others just because of how they sit on the the neck as all but one of my guitars have floaters. The Gibson Super400ces though does not cause a problem and I think it is just the way it sits on the top. I play right on top of the neck pickup.

Playing all acoustic requires a bit more preperation and thought to get the sound out you get no help from an amp. Amps can help and hide certain sounds that one has no access to on an acoustic.

In the end when I hear someone playing the guitar I ultimately want to hand them an acoustic guitar ( any type is ok) and here them make music. I love Pat Methany but really I want to hand him my L5c and just have him play some tunes with nothing else but the guitar and a pick if he wants one. To me you cannot hid behind anything with the acoustic guitar you have to produce sound. I could explain why I do not like players who tap on the frets. No names here but I never have found that something I never like listen to

[Spook410]

This..

...

And I prefer Rob's playing in the videos shared above. He plays with feeling and uses dynamics to support the music. The other cats are putting in too much effort to impress rather than simply playing beautiful music.

Nylon string, flat top, gypsy jazz, solid/semi/archtop electric, acoustic archtop. All different. All wonderful. Recommend at least three of each. But have to admit a special fondness for acoustic archtops. Something about the envelope.. attack, sustain, decay. Just seems right for so much of what I like to play.

[Archie]

I want to spit out some ideas and likely ignorant assumptions I have come to realise, correctly or incorrectly, about acoustic archtops and archtops in general.

I'm shooting from the hip but bare in mind, this is being posited as a thought, not as fact.

There are two types of jazz guitar. One that you play for other people and one that you play for yourself. We have an overwhelming amount of the former. This has created a chasm between what we perceive an archtop to be and what it really can be. What we perceive an archtop to be is based in an overton window of 'guitar designed because history for audience'.
But for the last 20 years, there is no audience, so why keep making something to appeal to something that isn't there? (I'm speaking broadly so bare with).

If we keep driving down the same road of expecting an archtop, designed for an audience, to make this magical 'acoustic' breakthrough', then this is likely a dead end and all the currently renowned traditional builders, Campellone, Keontopp, Trenier etc.. aren't going to change that (that's not a dig, they are clearly incredibly talented and skilled builders). Would any of them be 2x better than D'Aquisto? Which is likely what you would need to be, before you can build an archtop that will beat an acoustic, or a classical guitar and we can all sit back as the ones who chose the better style of instrument.

Both Ken Parker, Monteleone and Ribecke understand this (imo) I haven't spoken to them in person so I couldn't be totally wrong.
When you hear someone play a Parker guitar, it shouldn't sound 'good' to you the listener (well it should and does but indulge me). It should sound good to the player. Only by focusing on the player, can the archtop become the acoustic beast so many are hoping it will be. That is why Monteleone, Parker, Ribecke etc.. have moved away from convention.
Of course their guitars sound great to an audience but they sound even better to the person playing them and I can hand on heart say, the most overwhelming acoustic archtop I have played, that rinses all the others I have owned and tried, doesn't have any f holes or an over hole and isn't really designed for an audience.

It's designed for me; the player!

(I probably went off a little with the sentence but I was trying to be a bit poetic). I'm also trying to make a very fine point about reaching the pinnacle of acoustic archtop tone, in comparison to flat top and classical guitars. I'm not saying traditional archtops don't sound good. Well all love them because they sound awesome.

[AKA]

I have come to realize ..[that only] [/FONT]by focusing on the player, can the archtop become the acoustic beast so many are hoping it will be. …

Then, throw a mic on it ?

[Archie]

Then, throw a mic on it ?

You can do that but it kinda defeats the point and I still don't think it gets you there. An archtop with F-holes is an inferior acoustic product. An oval hole less so but I still suspect it's not enough.
Again I'm making assumptions, guesses and some potential faulty reasoning.

[gitman]

This..




Nylon string, flat top, gypsy jazz, solid/semi/archtop electric, acoustic archtop. All different. All wonderful. Recommend at least three of each. But have to admit a special fondness for acoustic archtops. Something about the envelope.. attack, sustain, decay. Just seems right for so much of what I like to play.

NEVER complete, off the top of my head ....

Nylon string, flat top, gypsy jazz, solid/semi/archtop electric, acoustic archtop. All different. All wonderful. Recommend at least three of each. But have to admit a special fondness for acoustic archtops. Something about the envelope.. attack, sustain, decay. Just seems right for so much of what I like to play.[/QUOTE]

Nylon string .
- Marcin Dylla :

- Kevin Seddiki :

- Ralph Towner :

- Metheny :

- Yamandu Costa :

- Chet Atkins
- Earl Klugh


Gypsy/Selmer
- Josho Stephan :

- Bireli Lagrene :

- Django

Flat top

- Bryon Sutton :

- Tony Rice :

-

Solid body
- Ted Greene
- Ed Bickert
- John Abercrombie
- Pat Martino
- Bill Frisell
- Mike Stern

Semi hollowbody
- Larry Carlton
- John Scofield
- Mike Moreno
- Kurt Rosenwinkel
- Wolfgang Muthspiel

Hollowbody archtop
- Wes
- Kenny Burrell
- George Benson
- Jim Hall
- Tuck Andress
-

[Rob MacKillop]

I love your tone here! You’re right - why on earth did you sell it? ?

I sold the D’Aquisto New Yorker (Japanese-made) for two reasons:

1. To put together money for the Elferink

2. Because it had that strange acoustic phenomenon of sounding much better when recorded than what you hear in the room. I found it uninspiring to play, but have to admit it sounds great when recorded. The Elferink sounded great in the room, but quite rough when recorded.

So, when you compare guitars through YouTube videos, you have no idea if it sounds close to that in the room. Some do, some don’t.

I sometimes feel I should buy the New Yorker again if I see one second hand, if only for videos…

[gitman]

Add-on :
Flamenco
- Vicente Amigo :

(No, I didn't forget Paco - he is the ever-reigning king, past and present and future ....)

Brazilian guitar
- Romero Lubambo :

Anything by Julian Bream, The Brothers Assad, Baden Powell, and and and .....
There are so many great musicians worldwide in all genres and styles who can make the acoustic guitar sound like an orchestra, like the human voice, the wind, the ocean, it's without boundaries and will continue to amaze and enchant us. In this respect we live in truly wonderful times ....

[skykomishone]

QAman,

Your comments above regarding your experience and approach to acoustic archtop playing with picks is the kind of information that I think adds discernable value to our topics.
And your ability to lay it out here for us in a clean and clear manner free of judgment about others preferences makes it comfortable to read and not feel like you are being critical.

You are always a gentleman who shows respect for others opinion and possessing knowledge that I value.

Thanks!

S

[QAman]

QAman,

Your comments above regarding your experience and approach to acoustic archtop playing with picks is the kind of information that I think adds discernable value to our topics.
And your ability to lay it out here for us in a clean and clear manner free of judgment about others preferences makes it comfortable to read and not feel like you are being critical.

You are always a gentleman who shows respect for others opinion and possessing knowledge that I value.

Thanks!

S

Sky,
Thanks for the very kind words. You too have been a pleasure to converse with over the years.
I guess gentlemen gravitate towards gentlemen - the World could certainly use more civility.

Forums can get a bit touchy at times, but if you provide useful information it can spark some interesting and healthy dialogue.

We have to remember that there is a global presence here, with different cultures and experiences - and if we keep an open mind
we can all learn something.

Hope all is well with you and the family.


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[Gregc57]

That Metheny piece touched my heart.........
and that's what it's all about*

[coyote-1]

One aspect that I also find distracting in this example (Trenier) is the pick-attack that is heard with each note. It takes an enormous effort and patience to develop the precision in the right hand to minimize this and the same is true re the left hand and the noise the fingertips make when sliding on the wound strings. An acoustic archtop guitar amplifies these and fresh strings even more

Yes. I’ve noticed this with my carved spruce Eastman. And I’m getting a new pick sound with the mother of pearl picks. Every single tiny sound gets amplified by the spruce top. This did not happen with my laminate top guitar.

I view it as a challenge. All of it forces me to make my practice very precise,

[QAman]

You want to hear great acoustic Archtop tone - listen to this brand new Trenier just strung up

Bryant Trenier on Instagram: "Brown @newyorker on it’s first day, going a good direction, I’d say.
#eastofthesunandwestofthemoon #archtopguitar #newguitarday"


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[AKA]

I felt bad about the negative comments regarding the example posted above featuring Will Sellenraad playing an acoustic archtop. This post features Will playing an amp’d Trenier.

[pcjazz]

Re #5 - I find that rest strokes into the body of the guitar produce the best tone, but of course this requires the pick to be angled into the string. I agree with your other points.

I’ve been playing straight acoustic Archtop’s for nearly 40 years. There are so many variables to obtaining a great tone, but in my opinion here are a few “ must do “ things when playing chord melody style.

1 - Use a 1.3 mm pick and dress the radius to suit the tone you are after. Increase the radius to get warmer, and round the edges like classical players dress their nails. I use a series of manicure files to dress my picks and each guitar in my collection has a custom dressed pick to suit that instrument. I burnish the pick edges to a high gloss. Going larger than 1.4mm causes a loss of some dynamics

2- Right hand needs to be close to end of fingerboard.

3. For more sustain use round core strings. Hex core are too stiff and have increased fretting resistance.

4. Learn to alter your attack to get a smooth legato technique. A firm right hand is a killer when playing chord melody.

5. Pick 90 degrees to string, any angle introduces some noise and you lose tone.

Of course, no two players will sound the same - on the same guitar.

Making music is an art form - and requires years of developing great technique when playing Archtop’s acoustically. While my playing is not at a professional level - I feel my tone is very round and legato - and I’ve received some very nice compliments over the years for incorporating the aforementioned practices. It’s something you have to really work at to achieve great success.

Great post AKA !


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[Archie]

Meh….nothing special there sound wise to my ears. Most archtops with similar dimensions, appointments and round wound strings will sound pretty close. Lol @ spending 10k on that but people do crazier things all the time I guess.

1) I see nothing wrong with the first part of this post. Everyone is allowed an opinion and shouldn't be attacked or or insulted for having it. I do not like Grasso’s tone and never have. I don’t like his tone when he plays carved tops and I don’t like it when he plays laminate tops. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect Trenier and or Grasso’s accomplishments.
I’m not going to be forced into liking it and no one should be bullied into accepting it as good or bad


2) The last part is probably the bit that caused the agro. Mocking people for sending £10k on something they think is worth £10k, is not going to win you friends or influence people and what is the point?
Your perfectly acceptable comment on a guitars tone (we all have and make them) is enough to suggest you’re not as impressed with some of said builders guitars, as others are.

I don’t like Joe Pass’s, Jim Hall’s, Pat Metheny’s, John Scofield’s and John Abercrombie’s tone but we can all respect them and enjoy their art.

3) People rarely make amazing first entrances onto forums, so I think we can leave a little room here a new member to settle in, or not. Lots of people have Asperger's and other such slightly anti social tendencies. It’s up to us to mitigate that or at least give some room for it.

My Asperger's has got me I to a lot of trouble on forums in the past. It’s only by being on them (this one) that over time, I’ve learnt how to behave (just).

Instead of being defensive in the face of a mild provocation, let’s ask our new friend why he thinks that and what he likes? Most people quickly become less combative when they feel they’re amongst friends.

[pcjazz]

Archie, just to establish a point of reference, whose tone do you like?

[Stringswinger]

I was at the home of a fellow forum member (he can identify himself if he wishes to) and I played three of his acoustic guitars. They were a D'Aquisto New Yorker, a Trenier (I believe it was a Broadway) and a Flattop made by the Santa Cruz Guitar Company (a jumbo sized model with a cutaway). My favorite of the three? The Santa Cruz Flattop. And that was the least valuable guitar of the three. I thought the other two sounded good (I liked the Trenier better than the D'Aquisto and his Trenier was the best of the three Treniers that I have tried), but my ear liked the flattop the best . Value and how much one likes a guitar do not necessarily go hand in hand.

I think acoustic archtops vary from guitar to guitar (like any guitar made of wood) and sound different in a room where one is playing them than they do on a compressed Internet video. So as always, my advice is to play before you buy, or deal with a reputable dealer who will allow a return.

Furthermore, I think there is a huge tonal difference between the original Gibson style acoustic archtop (Which includes D'Angelico, Epiphone, Guild, Campellone, Triggs and others) and the more modern acoustic archtops as pioneered by Jimmy D'Aquisto (Which includes Benedetto, Trenier, Borys, Monteleone and many others). Which is better sounding? That has a simple answer, whichever one you prefer.

[JazzEJoe]

1) I see nothing wrong with the first part of this post. Everyone is allowed an opinion and shouldn't be attacked or or insulted for having it. I do not like Grasso’s tone and never have. I don’t like his tone when he plays carved tops and I don’t like it when he plays laminate tops. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect Trenier and or Grasso’s accomplishments.
I’m not going to be forced into liking it and no one should be bullied into accepting it as good or bad


2) The last part is probably the bit that caused the agro. Mocking people for sending £10k on something they think is worth £10k, is not going to win you friends or influence people and what is the point?
Your perfectly acceptable comment on a guitars tone (we all have and make them) is enough to suggest you’re not as impressed with some of said builders guitars, as others are.

I don’t like Joe Pass’s, Jim Hall’s, Pat Metheny’s, John Scofield’s and John Abercrombie’s tone but we can all respect them and enjoy their art.

3) People rarely make amazing first entrances onto forums, so I think we can leave a little room here a new member to settle in, or not. Lots of people have Asperger's and other such slightly anti social tendencies. It’s up to us to mitigate that or at least give some room for it.

My Asperger's has got me I to a lot of trouble on forums in the past. It’s only by being on them (this one) that over time, I’ve learnt how to behave (just).

Instead of being defensive in the face of a mild provocation, let’s ask our new friend why he thinks that and what he likes? Most people quickly become less combative when they feel they’re amongst friends.

I’m not sure whether to be more offended by the Asperger’s diagnosis or being told I should have my hearing checked by someone who strums cowboy chords on a 20k archtop. LOL

I’m just kidding of course. I actually agree with what stringswinger said. Most guitars are case by case but, as a fisherman, I feel like the proverb about the lure catching the fisherman, not the fish, definitely applies here! Or should I say HEAR.

Anyway, it’s silly to be upset when someone’s opinion challenges your’s. maybe what they’re saying is valid and that challenges a belief system you’re thoroughly invested in or maybe you just like to fight on the internet. At any rate, buy as many 10k archtops as you can afford for all I care! A cowboy chord is still a cowboy chord.

Happy Trails!

[FourOnSix]

I was at the home of a fellow forum member (he can identify himself if he wishes to) and I played three of his acoustic guitars. They were a D'Aquisto New Yorker, a Trenier (I believe it was a Broadway) and a Flattop made by the Santa Cruz Guitar Company (a jumbo sized model with a cutaway). My favorite of the three? The Santa Cruz Flattop. And that was the least valuable guitar of the three. I thought the other two sounded good (I liked the Trenier better than the D'Aquisto and his Trenier was the best of the three Treniers that I have tried), but my ear liked the flattop the best . Value and how much one likes a guitar do not necessarily go hand in hand.

I think acoustic archtops vary from guitar to guitar (like any guitar made of wood) and sound different in a room where one is playing them than they do on a compressed Internet video. So as always, my advice is to play before you buy, or deal with a reputable dealer who will allow a return.

Furthermore, I think there is a huge tonal difference between the original Gibson style acoustic archtop (Which includes D'Angelico, Epiphone, Guild, Campellone, Triggs and others) and the more modern acoustic archtops as pioneered by Jimmy D'Aquisto (Which includes Benedetto, Trenier, Borys, Monteleone and many others). Which is better sounding? That has a simple answer, whichever one you prefer.

Yeah, that would be me. It was a pleasure having you over to play the guitars, SS.

Not that I disagree with your premise, which I don't, but I can't help but wonder whether, had you spent more time with each of the guitars, your opinion of each of them relative to the others might have changed. Sometimes it takes me a while to warm up to a guitar, and sometimes a guitar will sound and feel different from one playing session to another. Anyway, food for thought.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I’m not sure whether to be more offended by the Asperger’s diagnosis or being told I should have my hearing checked by someone who strums cowboy chords on a 20k archtop. LOL

I’m just kidding of course. I actually agree with what stringswinger said. Most guitars are case by case but, as a fisherman, I feel like the proverb about the lure catching the fisherman, not the fish, definitely applies here! Or should I say HEAR.

Anyway, it’s silly to be upset when someone’s opinion challenges your’s. maybe what they’re saying is valid and that challenges a belief system you’re thoroughly invested in or maybe you just like to fight on the internet. At any rate, buy as many 10k archtops as you can afford for all I care! A cowboy chord is still a cowboy chord.

Happy Trails!

Cowboy chords??????

A lot of people, especially men, have significant hearing loss. It’s an honest question that could really affect the ability of one to discern subtle differences among guitars.

In my case, I have a color vision condition known as deuteranomaly which means I can’t see green as well as most people. So there are things about colors I cannot discern. On the other hand, I can hear sound in a higher range of pitch than most people (tested). I think this may give me an ability to hear subtle tonal differences better.



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[Archie]

Archie, just to establish a point of reference, whose tone do you like?

I't's not always the player, so I probably misspoke earlier. It's more the era, studio, song, guitar etc.. There are occasions where it is simply the player; Metheny, Scofield, Abercrombie, Farlow. Yet I love and admire them all greatly.

Benson's tone is often too thin, though he is my fav player; "Aside from this gypsy in France".
I think the tone on his D'Aquisto is probably the best tone one could hope to achieve live (example below).

Otherwise, Joe Pass's tone on 'intercontinental'.
Pat Martino's tone on 'El Hombre'.
Howard Roberts on "Howard Roberts Is A...'.

I'm pretty traditional. I like that somewhat thick and punchy Polytone, Black Face sound.

My issue with Grasso's tone to date (happy to be enlightened as always), is that it's very flat (imo). There seems to be an emphasis on playing lots of notes and chord inversions but little in the way of dynamics? Please give examples if there is evidence otherwise, which I'm sure there is. He is undoubtably a great talent and excels at what he does.

[skykomishone]

There are telecaster, classical, etc threads that might appeal to member of a jazz guitar forum that doesn't like archtops, their players sounds, acoustic properties, etc.

Plenty of variety here for lots of different tastes. I like a variety myself, but especially love the acoustic electric archtop guitars.

There's a song that Maria Muldaur sang called 'It's Not The Meat, It's The Motion' that also applies here to some extent. For some artists, it doesn't matter what guitar they're playing. They sound fantastic. Slabs, Archtop, flattop, lute, it's all good, and to each listener, their own opinion.

Also, in the future, with AI, how will we know that we're communicating with a real person on these threads! It might be a bot telling us they hate archtops just to create discordant atonalities!

Anyway, acoustic archtop tone is the OPs thread. I like acoustic archtop tone.

Cheers.