Acoustic Archtop Tone

[AKA]

By its voice I suspected the DA had a larger body. Yes, a comparison of 17 inchers would be appreciated.

AKA

The D'Angelico is 17", and the L5 and Trenier are 16", so it's not apples to apples. But the reason these three went together is because Trenier Broadway is, in theory, a combination of attributes of early archtops. According to Bryant, my Broadway was modeled off an L5. I think that statement is more true cosmetically than sonically. They're very very different guitars.


I should do another acoustic archtop comparison, this time with my 17"ers.

[PDeville]

I love the sound of your Japan made D'Aquisto and the Elferink.
Your first video, with the pick playing on the D'Aquisto is the one that sounds the best.
The Elferink really sounds like a classic vintage acoustic arch top.

I like your playing and sound much better than other videos.

[2bornot2bop]

Another example of the acoustic archtop tone I favor. These are “young” instruments, and sound a little tight. They should open up with playing and age.

I must admit, though, towards the end (17:20) when he played the instrument with the pickup I appreciated that classic warm archtop jazz guitar tone.

Okay. Anthony Wilson, for my money, is a made man. His soloing, comping on Diana Kralls Live in Paris concert was simply superb. You follow the great Russel Malone in DK’s band, and you clearly knock it out of the park.

‘If Anthony Wilson never does anything else the rest of his life, it won’t matter, for he participated in what was probably the absolute finest live concert ever recorded - There’s nothing that compares, and it’s documented on both audio and video.

[Spook410]

Humbuckers are wonderful sounding pickups. But they are not acoustic pickups. And Fender twin and/or deluxe amplifiers are not acoustic amplifiers.

Would not want some of our listeners confusing the great tone of a later humbucker equipped L5 through a nice tube amp with the sound of a 30's L5. Sometimes we mix and match the idea of 'acoustic' because a player has a great electric tone.

[Gregc57]

Thanks for sharing those. I especially dig the tone of the Trenier~
All good!
Greg

[RJVB]

A thread about acoustic archtop tone and no one even mentions Michael Watts?

The same guitar sounds almost as if recorded through a piezo when played by another, otherwise very good player:

In a very different price range:

Someone mentioned nylon string archtops?

And this gorgeous animal:
https://hahl-guitars.de/en/guitars/a...-nylon-string/
https://hahl-guitars.de/wp-content/u...rand-Cru-1.mp3

I don't entirely disagree with the claim that "archtops have no bass". They have in fact a (much) more balanced sound (usually) without the boomy basses that so many flattops (and classical guitars in particular) have. It doesn't help here that the normal repertoire you hear on these seems to avoid the lower regions of the lower strings almost completely. Also: the common recording mic position pointed at the 12th/neck-join fret isn't the best for (f-hole) archtops; pointing to a spot just behind the treble foot of the saddle gives a much fuller sound (my Loar can actually sound a bit boomier than I like that way).

I also don't believe Gibson started building archtops to replace banjos; on the contrary I seem to recall that the initial L5 was intended to be an (maybe even the ultimate) allrounder.

[Chris236]

Humbuckers are wonderful sounding pickups. But they are not acoustic pickups. And Fender twin and/or deluxe amplifiers are not acoustic amplifiers.

Would not want some of our listeners confusing the great tone of a later humbucker equipped L5 through a nice tube amp with the sound of a 30's L5. Sometimes we mix and match the idea of 'acoustic' because a player has a great electric tone.

‘Acoustic Amplifier’ is a bit of an oxymoron doncha think?

On the flip side, even a strat is an ‘acoustic’ guitar. Just a quiet one.

It’s all acoustic….or, it’s all electric as soon as it’s amplified IMO.

[Spook410]

‘Acoustic Amplifier’ is a bit of an oxymoron doncha think?

On the flip side, even a strat is an ‘acoustic’ guitar. Just a quiet one.

It’s all acoustic….or, it’s all electric as soon as it’s amplified IMO.

If I might somewhat disagree with your amicable post.. There are many acoustic amplifiers. Full fidelity and fairly accurate. Schertler is a favorite but Bose is popular in this role. As for pickups, K&K works well enough and with some electronic help (i.e. ToneDexter) is pretty accurate. Several more sensor brands and types though many would argue nothing beats a microphone. There are also a few more and less accurate magnetic pickups designed for acoustic use. Sunrise is one I've liked over the years.

Guitar is not only acoustic when you are physically in the same space. An acoustic guitar can be recorded, amplified, reverb'd, compressed, and equalized. How much of the original acoustic quality remains depends on the quality of the gear and desired sound of the artist. But It's still acoustic.

[Oscar67]

Wow. This topic really is like a treasure trove to me. A topic near and dear to my heart. Thank you all so much for the wonderful vids, I spent a solid hour of quality time listening to them, morning coffee in hand. Great stuff. A few points I'd like add:
- Acoustic tone will never equal amplified tone and v.v. Two different worlds. I love them both.
- The acoustic tone of a guitar is hard to separate from its environment and the listener's position. The guitar is played in a room, a church being different from a living room. What the player hears is not at all what someone sitting 4 feet away hears. Which again is different to what someone 30 feet away hears.
- With YT vids from different sources the subjectivity increases exponentially because everything is different: the guitars, the strings, the players, the music being played, the rooms, the mics, the interfaces, etc.
-Despite the commonalities, archtop designs differ widely. As has been mentioned repeatedly here, the earlier ones were mostly intended for use in swing and country contexts with a strong focus on the mids and a strong, percussive attack. I'm fortunate to have found a nice and affordable 1937 Gibson L7 which is relatively dynamic, responsive and rich. It offers much more than the well-known snare drum-like strumming sound. It's an old sound, dry and woody and earthy and wizened and it loves finger style as much as a pick. More modern designs can sound totally different from this. This might be somewhat controversial, but I consider my early Collings CL Jazz (one of the first ones made) to be mostly an acoustic instrument, despite it being a thinline with a floating humbucker. Acoustically, it easily matches the volume of my L7 and it never gets harsh or spiky. It sounds sweet and musical, no matter what. The lows, mids and highs of the CL Jazz are very nicely balanced and complement each other (instead of getting in each others way). Long story short, it would be impossible for me to say which is "better", the L7 or the CL Jazz. They're apples and oranges.

A quick word about flat tops. I went through a major flat-top phase after being dragged to a Tommy Emmanuel show back in the day when he still played small clubs. He turned my world upside down and for the next decade or so I immersed myself in that world. I came away from it without ever having found a flattop that played effortlessly, that sounded in tune everywhere on the neck and that actually had a tone on the plain strings (instead of some spiky super high end 'pling'). Basically I'd been fighting the guitar instead of making music. Once I got my hands on an archtop, it was a revelation. Effortless playability, much better intonation and a nice tone on the plain strings. Such a difference... on an archtop the strings are pushing on the top, on a flattop they're pulling on the top. Completely different worlds.

[RJVB]

On the flip side, even a strat is an ‘acoustic’ guitar. Just a quiet one.

Can be used as one, sure. Quiet, but it sustains forever!

I came away from it without ever having found a flattop that played effortlessly, that sounded in tune everywhere on the neck and that actually had a tone on the plain strings (instead of some spiky super high end 'pling'). Basically I'd been fighting the guitar instead of making music.

I only did this with 1 guitar and for about 2 years. I was lucky that the instrument I had intonated more than correctly with the strings I prefer but for the rest I have to concur. I only started to connect with it a bit after discovering Spectrum AC111 strings which seem really light for a jumbo but they made it open up so I actually had an idea how much sound I was making. Of course those light trebles don't help the jingle factor.
After I got my Loar (which isn't exactly a high-end guitar and maybe not even one of the better ones) I just couldn't get back to playing that mini-jumbo. It either sounded lackluster, or annoyed me with its gothic cathedral resonance. It even turned out to be more comfortable to play before I put on a zero fret, despite having a good step heavier strings on it.

If you go into the archtop section of the AGF you'll find posts by Steve de Rosa in which he hypothesises, based on what players like Eddie Lang were doing at some point, that the archtop could have taken the place of the classical guitar (I suppose he means in the US) if Segovia hadn't come on tour. That's a bit hyperbolic but he does have a point IMHO. I find that there's quite a bit of 20th century repertoire that works perfectly well on (steel string) archtop (fingerpicked without nails), and a good archtop has that same kind of immediacy you can find in a CG.

[m_d]

I was fortunate to hear Diana with Anthony fairly recently from a very good seat at the front. It was some of the best jazz guitar I've ever heard. He's an inspired player. He speaks to the soul. There were more memorable moments than I could count that night. It woudn't have been legal but I regretted afterwards I didn't bring my Zoom recorder with me.

[RJVB]

I was fortunate to hear Diana with Anthony

Sorry, who?

[jazzshrink]

Sorry, who?

Post #78

[RJVB]

Ah, thx, one of the demos that have nothing to do with acoustic archtop (or maybe he does play one at some point in the video?).

I did think of Anthony Wilson, the recording of his Seasons project is a monument to what contemporary archtops are capable of "sans PU". (Sadly I understand head nor tail of most of what he's been doing more recently but that's a different matter.)

[gitman]

Sorry, who?

Anthony Wilson of Los Angeles

Listen here :

[JazzEJoe]

Funny, the tone on the above guitars range from bad to barely passable to my ears. Anthony is a nice player of course but I’m at a loss for what keeps many of these builders in business with the astronomical prices and ability to achieve a superior sound from a cheap guitar. Maybe the people actually buying these guitars are mostly using them for decoration? It’s an enigma.

[Christian Miller]

Clarity, note separation, balance across the range of the instrument

[Christian Miller]

Even my cheap Loar Archie has something you can’t get from a flattop… someone in the comments said ‘crisp’ and I think that’s a great description

[RJVB]

I’m at a loss for what keeps many of these builders in business with the astronomical prices and ability to achieve a superior sound from a cheap guitar. Maybe the people actually buying these guitars are mostly using them for decoration? It’s an enigma.

I guess that didn't sound the same way in your head, and that you mean an inability to achiever a better sound than that of a cheap guitar?

Maybe you should post a 1 or 2 videos and prices of such cheap guitars sounding superior to your ears so we can properly evaluate that enigma of what's superior sound for you (idem for "cheap")...

[RJVB]

Even my cheap Loar Archie has something you can’t get from a flattop… someone in the comments said ‘crisp’ and I think that’s a great description

Crisp isn't necesarily a 100% positive thing for sound, I think but I do think I know what you mean.

Do you have a flattop that you're happy enough with? It'd be interesting to hear you play the same thing on different instruments, trying as well as possible to sound the way you want the piece to sound (but probably without muting beyond what's necessary on all guitars to make played notes sound their alotted duration).

I've found a (NOS ) luthier relatively closeby, a reasonably known, retired CG builder. He'd been curious to see my archtop and resonator as he had never had one in his shop (!) and he was impressed with my Loar. I have very little opportunity to hear it played by someone else and I can confirm that it sounded just like a really nice big acoustic guitar.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Anthony Wilson of Los Angeles

Listen here :

I believe three of the four guitars in the Fretboard Journal video are electric archtops with inset pickups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stringswinger]

Funny, the tone on the above guitars range from bad to barely passable to my ears. Anthony is a nice player of course but I’m at a loss for what keeps many of these builders in business with the astronomical prices and ability to achieve a superior sound from a cheap guitar. Maybe the people actually buying these guitars are mostly using them for decoration? It’s an enigma.

It might not be the guitars that causes your dislike of the acoustic archtop tone. It might be your ears. Perhaps a visit to an audiologist is in order?

[Christian Miller]

I guess that didn't sound the same way in your head, and that you mean an inability to achiever a better sound than that of a cheap guitar?

Maybe you should post a 1 or 2 videos and prices of such cheap guitars sounding superior to your ears so we can properly evaluate that enigma of what's superior sound for you (idem for "cheap")...

Tbf cheap guitars can mike wonderfully.

Some of my best guitar tones have been a £250 classical guitar mikes with a Neumann U87… :-)

otoh mike and type position can radically change a guitar’s tone - like that piezo-ish tone you mentioned above. You need it closer for live work … etc etc

I think you need to be in a room with the guitar in question.

[Christian Miller]

Crisp isn't necesarily a 100% positive thing for sound, I think but I do think I know what you mean.

Do you have a flattop that you're happy enough with? It'd be interesting to hear you play the same thing on different instruments, trying as well as possible to sound the way you want the piece to sound (but probably without muting beyond what's necessary on all guitars to make played notes sound their alotted duration).

Tbh I don’t think I can play the same thing once let alone several times ;-)

I've found a (NOS ) luthier relatively closeby, a reasonably known, retired CG builder. He'd been curious to see my archtop and resonator as he had never had one in his shop (!) and he was impressed with my Loar. I have very little opportunity to hear it played by someone else and I can confirm that it sounded just like a really nice big acoustic guitar.

There’s a lot less bass on that guitar than you’d find with a good dread.

[AKA]

The "Autumn" instrument as played by Anthony [at 3:50] seems, to me, the absolutely perfect acoustic archtop tone.

AKA

Anthony Wilson of Los Angeles