Inside a Raezer's Edge Stealth 10 ER

[omphalopsychos]

I saw a crazy deal that I couldn't pass up on this cab, at least to try it out given the reviews.

I was surprised at how heavy it is! 32 lbs for just the cab.

As usual, I got curious about speaker options so I put a Cannabis Rex 10" in there. The Eminence Beta A is an interesting speaker, but it's pretty inefficient and (subjectively) a little sterile.

The Cannabis Rex sounds really nice in this amp, but it's only 50w. I also heard that people have tried the Jensen Tornado Classic 10" in here with some success (and that's 100w. I might split the difference and try a Ragin Cajun, especially since that's such an efficient speaker.

If anyone has swapped the speaker in this cab, I'd be interested in your experience.

ANYWAY, while doing the swap I had to document what I saw. Hope I'm not sharing any trade secrets here. The electronics in here are, I assume, an attenuator for the tweeter, which, btw, is a GREAT feature. I really wish Henriksen amps had an attenuator for the tweeter instead of a binary switch.

[sgosnell]

Yes, that's the attenuator and crossover network. I've tried a Cannabis Rex in mine, and ended up putting the original Eminence back in it. Mostly because I wanted both my CR speakers in my Vibrolux Reverb. It's a slightly different sound, but nothing that can't be duplicated with the original through EQ and tweeter tweaking. The cab is indeed heavy, not surprising considering all that thick and heavy plywood. The tweeter alone is almost 2 pounds.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I put a Tornado Neo in my 10" RE and it's excellent - warm and full, but not at all bloated or flabby in the bottom. It's also light and efficient.

I wouldn't worry about using a "50W" speaker. Unless it's horribly inefficient (which the CR is not), you're not going to be pumping anywhere close to 50W into it with music other than highly distorted metal. A heavy transient may push the limit for a millisecond or two at the attack, but even this is highly unlikely and highly unlikely to do damage. I use my DV Mark EG250 through the Jet-loaded RE with no worries at all.

[customxke]

Are those sheetrock screws in there?

[omphalopsychos]

I put a Tornado Neo in my 10" RE and it's excellent - warm and full, but not at all bloated or flabby in the bottom. It's also light and efficient.

I wouldn't worry about using a "50W" speaker. Unless it's horribly inefficient (which the CR is not), you're not going to be pumping anywhere close to 50W into it with music other than highly distorted metal. A heavy transient may push the limit for a millisecond or two at the attack, but even this is highly unlikely and highly unlikely to do damage. I use my DV Mark EG250 through the Jet-loaded RE with no worries at all.

Actually this reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask you, specifically. My concern is motived by the thought that I might use this as an extension for my Bud, which is rated at 120w by Henriksen. I remember you've remarked multiple times about the inconsistency of SS amp ratings.

The rule we usually live by for tube amps is that speakers should be 2x the amp's wattage rating. This is because tube amps are rated at their maximum clean output power. SS ratings really baffle me (and I'm sure others), since 100w tube amps tend to have as much perceived volume as a 20-30w tube amp.

So I guess my question is how do you think of speaker selection with SS amps? Do you still aim for 2x their rated output? It seems like a lot of manufacturers do this, but if it's not necessary and you have a different rule of thumb you live by that would open a lot of speaker options.

[omphalopsychos]

Are those sheetrock screws in there?

I think so. These are the ones RE uses to secure the speaker to the baffle. A couple had fallen in when I took the pic.

[sgosnell]

Those type screws are not just for sheetrock. They're also sold for attaching decking and other woodwork. They're self-tapping. Sheetrock screws generally have finer threads, those for use in wood have coarser threads, as a general rule.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Actually this reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask you, specifically. My concern is motived by the thought that I might use this as an extension for my Bud, which is rated at 120w by Henriksen. I remember you've remarked multiple times about the inconsistency of SS amp ratings.

The rule we usually live by for tube amps is that speakers should be 2x the amp's wattage rating. This is because tube amps are rated at their maximum clean output power. SS ratings really baffle me (and I'm sure others), since 100w tube amps tend to have as much perceived volume as a 20-30w tube amp.

So I guess my question is how do you think of speaker selection with SS amps? Do you still aim for 2x their rated output? It seems like a lot of manufacturers do this, but if it's not necessary and you have a different rule of thumb you live by that would open a lot of speaker options.

I’ve never subscribed to the idea that you need a speaker rated for twice the stated output of a tube amp. A few things kill speakers. First is excessive voice coil heat from constant overdriving, which none of us is likely to do with an amp that produces enough wattage for our needs. A jazz guitar player rarely if ever pushes an amplifier beyond 15 Watts, which is enough to hit 102 dB through a typical 10 to 12” speaker with a sensitivity of about 90 dB from 1 Watt measured 1 meter away. The occasional “power chord” may push a transient peak well above this, but it’s only for a millisecond or two and it won’t hurt any good speaker rated for even 25 Watts.

Second is bombarding the voice coil with high energy distorted signal. The sharp edges in square, triangle, and other waveforms with sudden spectral splashes beat a voice coil and cone badly while overheating it as well. Knocking the coil around like this can cause it to rub and fail. And the higher the frequency, the more energy there is in the wave (measured as the area under the curve, or AUC, for the technically minded). The most common cause of severe signal distortion is obviously the use of distortion effects. But the next most common cause is using an amp that’s severely underpowered for your needs, especially if you’re running it wide open and using a boost to make it louder.

You can also rip voice coils from cones by grossly overpowering a speaker and playing so loud that you bang the voice coil against its stops at the limits of its travel. This causes a classic bang known as coil knock, and you’ll hear it every time it happens. If you hear it once, turn your volume down to finish the gig and go buy a half stack in the morning - a 1x12 or smaller is not for you.

An amplifier’s power rating is not an indicator of the most power it can put out. It’s the power made at what the manufacturer deems acceptable distortion for sales and marketing purposes. Audio amps are spec’ed to produce X Watts at y% distortion, and this is stated in their descriptive literature. While guitar amps are exactly the same, the distortion at their rated output is strangely not specified. Most amps will put out far more than their rated power, but distortion rises dramatically above rated output power in most of them. This is how underpowered amps blow speakers.

Tube amps distort when they reach output tube clipping by compressing the waveform, so they don’t make the harsh higher order odd harmonics that kill speakers until they’re really being beaten badly by high input signals. But typical class A/B SS amps clip sharply as they begin to rise above their rated power, which generates the harsh solid state distortion for which they’re famous - and this blows speakers. So you need a speaker with serious power handling ability well above the amp’s output rating if you’re going to do this.

Circuit designs vary widely in SS amps, and power ratings are less consistent than they are for tube amps. So one 25 W SS amp may be as loud as (or even the same amp as) another rated as a 75 W amp if the 25 W unit was rated at 0.0005% distortion and the 75W was rated at 0.1%. Class D amps have little power supply reserve compared to traditional amps with big iron and capacitors in their power supplies. So they usually can’t put out much more than their rated power.

Bottom line - unless it’s for loud use or a rig with distortion, I’ll use a speaker that’s rated at or even below the amp’s output power if it sounds right. I’ve blown one speaker in 63 years of playing. It was an unmic’ed Ampeg Reverberocket at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall in 1961 playing a rock concert. The amp was far too small and the speaker let go during the last tune of the concert by which time it was undoubtedly overheated.

[sgosnell]

I have never worried about speaker amperage ratings, I don't even think about it, and I also have never blown a speaker. I just don't play that loud, and don't plan to ever do so. I'm not in the business of playing to a football stadium full of screaming fans with only my amp to supply the volume.

[omphalopsychos]

I’ve never subscribed to the idea that you need a speaker rated for twice the stated output of a tube amp. A few things kill speakers. First is excessive voice coil heat from constant overdriving, which none of us is likely to do with an amp that produces enough wattage for our needs. A jazz guitar player rarely if ever pushes an amplifier beyond 15 Watts, which is enough to hit 102 dB through a typical 10 to 12” speaker with a sensitivity of about 90 dB from 1 Watt measured 1 meter away. The occasional “power chord” may push a transient peak well above this, but it’s only for a millisecond or two and it won’t hurt any good speaker rated for even 25 Watts.

Second is bombarding the voice coil with high energy distorted signal. The sharp edges in square, triangle, and other waveforms with sudden spectral splashes beat a voice coil and cone badly while overheating it as well. Knocking the coil around like this can cause it to rub and fail. And the higher the frequency, the more energy there is in the wave (measured as the area under the curve, or AUC, for the technically minded). The most common cause of severe signal distortion is obviously the use of distortion effects. But the next most common cause is using an amp that’s severely underpowered for your needs, especially if you’re running it wide open and using a boost to make it louder.

You can also rip voice coils from cones by grossly overpowering a speaker and playing so loud that you bang the voice coil against its stops at the limits of its travel. This causes a classic bang known as coil knock, and you’ll hear it every time it happens. If you hear it once, turn your volume down to finish the gig and go buy a half stack in the morning - a 1x12 or smaller is not for you.

An amplifier’s power rating is not an indicator of the most power it can put out. It’s the power made at what the manufacturer deems acceptable distortion for sales and marketing purposes. Audio amps are spec’ed to produce X Watts at y% distortion, and this is stated in their descriptive literature. While guitar amps are exactly the same, the distortion at their rated output is strangely not specified. Most amps will put out far more than their rated power, but distortion rises dramatically above rated output power in most of them. This is how underpowered amps blow speakers.

Tube amps distort when they reach output tube clipping by compressing the waveform, so they don’t make the harsh higher order odd harmonics that kill speakers until they’re really being beaten badly by high input signals. But typical class A/B SS amps clip sharply as they begin to rise above their rated power, which generates the harsh solid state distortion for which they’re famous - and this blows speakers. So you need a speaker with serious power handling ability well above the amp’s output rating if you’re going to do this.

Circuit designs vary widely in SS amps, and power ratings are less consistent than they are for tube amps. So one 25 W SS amp may be as loud as (or even the same amp as) another rated as a 75 W amp if the 25 W unit was rated at 0.0005% distortion and the 75W was rated at 0.1%. Class D amps have little power supply reserve compared to traditional amps with big iron and capacitors in their power supplies. So they usually can’t put out much more than their rated power.

Bottom line - unless it’s for loud use or a rig with distortion, I’ll use a speaker that’s rated at or even below the amp’s output power if it sounds right. I’ve blown one speaker in 63 years of playing. It was an unmic’ed Ampeg Reverberocket at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall in 1961 playing a rock concert. The amp was far too small and the speaker let go during the last tune of the concert by which time it was undoubtedly overheated.

As usual I couldn’t have asked for a more informative answer. Thank you for taking the time to write all that!

[JazzNote]

I put a Tornado Neo in my 10" RE and it's excellent - warm and full, but not at all bloated or flabby in the bottom. It's also light and efficient.

Can you describe the difference to the sound with the original Eminence speaker - and ... do you use it with an archtop?

The Jensen description mentions a rounder bass of the Tornado speaker compared to the Neo 10", what do they mean with "rounder"? I wonder if the bassresponse might be too dominant when used with a archtop.

[Gitterbug]

Verbal speaker descriptions resemble tasting notes for wines, except they're far less sophisticated/imaginative. Bass response depends a lot on the cab architecture. As well, you can control it both from your guitar and the amp. I've mounted hundreds of Tornados to my Toob cabs. Open-back versions have more pronounced mids than the ported and reflex models. To my knowledge there's no other 10" Jensen Neo than the by now "Classic" 100W Tornado. To me, it's the best-sounding Jensen, at least for "classic" jazz.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Can you describe the difference to the sound with the original Eminence speaker - and ... do you use it with an archtop?

The Jensen description mentions a rounder bass of the Tornado speaker compared to the Neo 10", what do they mean with "rounder"? I wonder if the bassresponse might be too dominant when used with a archtop.

I play 7 string archtops (an Ibanez Af207 with a Benedetto B7 in it, an Eastman 16" Jazz Elite with HW KA 12 pole set PU, and a 17" Eastman 810CE7 with a floating KA). So bass is integral to my sound - and the RE10 is tight and clean all the way down. I can't compare an Eminence to the Jet because my cab came with a weird custom one-off. Rich Raezer often ordered speakers with different specs to try put new ideas, and when I opened mine up a few years ago, this is what had come in it:



No one seems to know what it is, including the current guys at RE. I never questioned RIch about it when I bought the cab - it sounded great and I loved it from day 1. As for the Tornado, I thought they're all neos - if there's a traditional magnet version, I've never seen it.

Bass response is outstanding. My 7th string sounds just like the other 6 but lower. There's no boom, no flab, and no boosted lower midrange.

[JazzNote]

To my knowledge there's no other 10" Jensen Neo than the by now "Classic" 100W Tornado. To me, it's the best-sounding Jensen, at least for "classic" jazz.

As for the Tornado, I thought they're all neos - if there's a traditional magnet version, I've never seen it.

I found this on a Thomann page: "The Jensen JET Tornado sounds much like the NEO 10", but has a rounder, richer bass due to its lower resonant frequency. The Tornado's bass is nonetheless always perfectly focussed." so i assumed there would be a NEO 10" different from the Tornado ... but i have discovered other product descriptions from Thomann which were not correct.

Jensen Jet Series Tornado 10" 8Ohm – Thomann UK

[sgosnell]

That cover should come off, and maybe there is manufacturer's info under there. It may or may not be worth the trouble of removing it just for that.

[Stringswinger]

I have an original RE Stealth 10 ER made by Rich that I bought from forum member Danny W. a few years back. I have never opened it, but plan to, I recently bought a Jensen Neo-10-100 in mint condition (Some web sources say that this is a discontinued item). My plan is to swap the Jensen for whatever the stock speaker is and see if A) I like the sound and B) see if the weight drops. I think it currently weighs about 30 pounds.

I also own an original RE Stealth 12 Er Made by Rich that I bought from a user of the old Usenet group about 20 years ago that weighs about 35 pounds. It has a dual cone speaker rather than a separate tweeter. I may try to lighten that load if I like how the Stealth 10ER turns out.

I love the sound that I get from these old cabs, I just don't like carrying them so much these days.

I have owned a couple of the Wisconsin built RE Cabs and some other Rich built cabs and I do think that the Rich built cabs are superior sounding. Danny W. and Jimmy Bruno also believe this to be true. YMMV

[Gitterbug]

I found this on a Thomann page: "The Jensen JET Tornado sounds much like the NEO 10", but has a rounder, richer bass due to its lower resonant frequency. The Tornado's bass is nonetheless always perfectly focussed." so i assumed there would be a NEO 10" different from the Tornado ... but i have discovered other product descriptions from Thomann which were not correct.

Jensen Jet Series Tornado 10" 8Ohm – Thomann UK

The first Toob I've ever sold was to a friend in 2016. Still in frequent use, it's loaded with a 10" Tornado. If there ever was an earlier 10" Jensen Neo, it's history.

[omphalopsychos]

I have owned a couple of the Wisconsin built RE Cabs and some other Rich built cabs and I do think that the Rich built cabs are superior sounding. Danny W. and Jimmy Bruno also believe this to be true. YMMV

I've heard this a few times and I wonder what the reason is, whether it's the speakers or something else. I now have two of the wisconsin made ones (the other one is an open back 10) and I think they sound amazing. Would love to compare with the Rich made ones.

[Stringswinger]

I've heard this a few times and I wonder what the reason is, whether it's the speakers or something else. I now have two of the wisconsin made ones (the other one is an open back 10) and I think they sound amazing. Would love to compare with the Rich made ones.

Rich used different wood and different glue. I believe the hot hide glue that Rich used made his cabinets more labor intensive.

[Gitterbug]

On 10" Jensen Neo once more. I was wrong. Indeed, there have been two earlier models, one with cooling ribs around the magnet and one externally very similar to the Tornado. Likewise, there's been a pre-Tornado 12 Neo. A couple of dealers still advertise these, with quite steep pricing, but they've been absent from Jensen's catalogs and e.g. the Jensentone website for years.

[rpjazzguitar]

I’ve
Bottom line - unless it’s for loud use or a rig with distortion, I’ll use a speaker that’s rated at or even below the amp’s output power if it sounds right. I’ve blown one speaker in 63 years of playing. It was an unmic’ed Ampeg Reverberocket at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall in 1961 playing a rock concert. The amp was far too small and the speaker let go during the last tune of the concert by which time it was undoubtedly overheated.

Thank you for this explanation.

If it helps, the only speaker I've ever blown was also in an Ampeg Reverberocket. A '64. Maybe it's not us.

[DawgBone]

Those type screws are not just for sheetrock. They're also sold for attaching decking and other woodwork. They're self-tapping. Sheetrock screws generally have finer threads, those for use in wood have coarser threads, as a general rule.

For attaching decking? Since when? You use deck screws to attach decking. Or maybe you don't but I wouldn't pay anyone money to build me a deck, or a cab for that matter, using sheetrock screws. I do woodwork pretty often. I am hanging cedar trim boards today. I use finishing nails because that's what you use for trim boards. Or a brad nailer.....

Otherwise nicely built cab but pretty disappointing someone couldn't use cabinet or at least actual deck screws to build it. A cabinet screw has a larger head on it that prevents pulling through so you don't have screws falling about in your $430 cab. He could've just gone the normal guitar cab builder route and used standard phillips head screws with a finish washer like a decent Marshall or old Fender cab. Cost cutting trying to save a buck because sheetrock screws=cheap. No doubt someone will say it doesn't matter but obviously it did since there are screws now floating around the cab. I'm sorry but that's pitiful.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Otherwise nicely built cab but pretty disappointing someone couldn't use cabinet or at least actual deck screws to build it. A cabinet screw has a larger head on it that prevents pulling through so you don't have screws falling about in your $430 cab. He could've just gone the normal guitar cab builder route and used standard phillips head screws with a finish washer like a decent Marshall or old Fender cab. Cost cutting trying to save a buck because sheetrock screws=cheap. No doubt someone will say it doesn't matter but obviously it did since there are screws now floating around the cab. I'm sorry but that's pitiful.

I’m not about to open my RE 10 to confirm this. But as I recall, the speaker is held in place by studs with nuts. Mine is an early one, and the speaker that came in it is definitely not found in many other cabinets.

I posted pics of it in a thread here when I put the Jet neo in, and no one had ever seen anything like it before. I sent pics to several authorities including the new RE, and it was a mystery to all. So mine could be a one-off that Rich made to test an idea of his. But the entire cab is very well made inside and out. There’s no sign that any corners or costs were cut. And he didn’t tell me that it was anything special when I bought it - I always thought it was just another RE 10.

[DawgBone]

I’m not about to open my RE 10 to confirm this. But as I recall, the speaker is held in place by studs with nuts. Mine is an early one, and the speaker that came in it is definitely not found in many other cabinets.

I posted pics of it in a thread here when I put the Jet neo in, and no one had ever seen anything like it before. I sent pics to several authorities including the new RE, and it was a mystery to all. So mine could be a one-off that Rich made to test an idea of his. But the entire cab is very well made inside and out. There’s no sign that any corners or costs were cut. And he didn’t tell me that it was anything special when I bought it - I always thought it was just another RE 10.

Using sheetrock screws to hold a speaker to the baffle is like something you'd do in a pinch if your cab came apart at some gig out in the desert and that was all you had to make it work. That's somewhat of a premium cab so I really don't understand that choice at all. Slip shod. Cut corner. If it was mine I'd be pretty let down by that. Maybe he figured no one will ever open it up or blow a speaker. Oh well....

[omphalopsychos]

For attaching decking? Since when? You use deck screws to attach decking. Or maybe you don't but I wouldn't pay anyone money to build me a deck, or a cab for that matter, using sheetrock screws. I do woodwork pretty often. I am hanging cedar trim boards today. I use finishing nails because that's what you use for trim boards. Or a brad nailer.....

Otherwise nicely built cab but pretty disappointing someone couldn't use cabinet or at least actual deck screws to build it. A cabinet screw has a larger head on it that prevents pulling through so you don't have screws falling about in your $430 cab. He could've just gone the normal guitar cab builder route and used standard phillips head screws with a finish washer like a decent Marshall or old Fender cab. Cost cutting trying to save a buck because sheetrock screws=cheap. No doubt someone will say it doesn't matter but obviously it did since there are screws now floating around the cab. I'm sorry but that's pitiful.

That's valid. I was also very surprised when I got another cabinet from RE. It came unloaded and when I asked for mounting hardware, this is what they sent. I was assuming to receive T-Nuts. They told me that they used wood/sheetrock screws because they had a sturdy hold and did not anticipate that customers would change their speakers often (kind of a proud, wrongheaded position).

TLDR, I went to the hardware store, got some t nuts, spent 7.5 minutes installing them and never worried about it again. I still have the sheetrock screws in the cab bit I'll probably put some t nuts in it if I feel like doing more speaker testing.