Inside a Raezer's Edge Stealth 10 ER

[sgosnell]

Decking screws, sheetrock screws, etc are all the same type, just different thread sizes and different materials. You can find about a hundred different types of screws that look very much the same at any home improvement store. Some are much more expensive than others, and they come in many sizes, but the basic shape is the same. They're used for holding many different materials. I thought everyone knew this.

[DawgBone]

Decking screws, sheetrock screws, etc are all the same type, just different thread sizes and different materials. You can find about a hundred different types of screws that look very much the same at any home improvement store. Some are much more expensive than others, and they come in many sizes, but the basic shape is the same. They're used for holding many different materials. I thought everyone knew this.

I take issue with it but I don't imagine anything productive would come from a hardware debate. Wood screws=for wood. Sheetrock screws=for sheetrock (yeah I get it, into wood studs). Sheet metal screws=for sheet metal. Yes I get that I can use stuff made for another purpose to get a job done but I call that less than ideal. Use the right fastener for the job, pretty basic principle and the whole reason for the hardware section to begin with. You can barely get me to buy a phillips anything now that coated torx are available yet there I was recently working a maintenance job with a guy using sheetrock screws, outdoors no less, for stuff a decent ceramic coated deck screw should've been the standard. I just looked away and pretended I didn't care...

I built a cab once and used wood screws with a washer to hold the speaker to the baffle because it was expedient and I didn't really feel like trying to get my holes drilled just perfectly to be able to use studs and I wasn't sure it would be the permanent baffle anyways. Sure enough, after a couple speaker swaps, they lost grip and I had to reorient the speaker into the cab so I had fresh wood to screw into. Studs are an industry standard, anything less is bullshit for such a costly cab. Everything else should be screws into a finishing washer like every other decent cab ever built. Major cut corner not putting studs there. But I suppose it's par for the course today. Labor+quality hardware=more money, less profit.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Using sheetrock screws to hold a speaker to the baffle is like something you'd do in a pinch if your cab came apart at some gig out in the desert and that was all you had to make it work. That's somewhat of a premium cab so I really don't understand that choice at all. Slip shod. Cut corner. If it was mine I'd be pretty let down by that. Maybe he figured no one will ever open it up or blow a speaker. Oh well....

Having known Rich Raezer (who lived in Swarthmore, PA which is only about 10 miles from us), I find it very hard to believe that he secured speakers in his cabs with drywall screws or any other marginal fastener. He had an adult son who struggled with mental illness and finally stabbed Rich to death with a butcher knife in 2005. As I understand it, his son did help him build speakers from time to time, and it's possible that his son took shortcuts unkown to him. But I've never heard that before, and I strongly suspect that he inspected every cab his son made before final assembly.

If a cab was not bought new, all bets are off. A prior owner could have done anything to it. But as delivered by Rich, I absolutely can't imagine that any shortcuts were taken. Every one I've ever seen, played through, or heard about from an original owner was excellent.

[DawgBone]

Having known Rich Raezer (who lived in Swarthmore, PA which is only about 10 miles from us), I find it very hard to believe that he secured speakers in his cabs with drywall screws or any other marginal fastener. He had an adult son who struggled with mental illness and finally stabbed Rich to death with a butcher knife in 2005. As I understand it, his son did help him build speakers from time to time, and it's possible that his son took shortcuts unkown to him. But I've never heard that before, and I strongly suspect that he inspected every cab his son made before final assembly.

If a cab was not bought new, all bets are off. A prior owner could have done anything to it. But as delivered by Rich, I absolutely can't imagine that any shortcuts were taken. Every one I've ever seen, played through, or heard about from an original owner was excellent.

Lord have Mercy. That's brutal. I didn't know he wasn't in business and assumed that it was a new cab. I guess that's what I get for assuming. It did strike me as strange cause the cab had the "no expense spared" look to the inside with the baffling and such so I was put off by that presumed corner cutting.

Maybe the same guy I was working with a couple weeks ago was in there with his damn sheetrock screws, smh. I do handyman and maintenance work on the side when not gigging so nothing, I mean nothing, surprises me. Some of the cut corners I've seen will eventually cause catastrophic failure given enough time and I'm talking about death, grievous bodily harm, or tens of thousands in damages and repairs. Start looking closely at the way some people build "professional" decks and you might see what i mean. No notches, just nails holding up thousands of pounds of wood. It's scary the way some people put stuff together. I built and am in the process of finishing my own place so I guess I get pretty anal about doing the job right and using the right fastener for the job.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Lord have Mercy. That's brutal. I didn't know he wasn't in business and assumed that it was a new cab. I guess that's what I get for assuming. It did strike me as strange cause the cab had the "no expense spared" look to the inside with the baffling and such so I was put off by that presumed corner cutting.

The story of Rich and his son is a true tragedy. Here's the history of the company from their current website:

"Rich Raezer passed away July 7 2005. Jeff Hale then took on the business and moved it along with all the same tools to Hartland, Wisconsin. After retirement in 2013, Jeff Hale passed the controls to long time shop manager, Geoff Felsher. Now located in Waukesha, Wisconsin, we continue to carry the same legacy. Using many the same tools [sic] Rich used when he first started."

I haven't had any experience at all with their products after Rich passed away, and I don't know anything about the company's current products or manufacturing standards. I did reach out to them to try to learn more about the weird driver in my 10" cab, and they were very nice in communicating with me. But I don't know if they've maintained Rich's very high standards or how the insides of their cabs look now. For all I know, the new ones do hold the speakers in with drywall screws - but I'd be more than a bit surprised.

[omphalopsychos]

Just want to confirm in my email with Geoff when I asked for hardware, he confirmed that they use wood screws to hold the speaker in place.



Geoff:
"So, we typically front mount speakers in our cabinets. Meaning the grill is removeable and the speaker drops in that way. The easiest and fastest way to get you up and running from here would be to remove the grill, connect the speaker and use some small wood screws to secure it in place from the front. I can send a set of what we use."

Me:
"If you want to send your typical mounting hardware and clear instructions, I can see if it’s something I’m comfortable with. I’d like to install it the way your shop would do it, not taking shortcuts with wood screws."

*Geoff sends me wood screws.*

Me:
"Hi Geoff I just got the screw set. Thanks for sending them! I was a little surprised that you guys don’t use t nuts like most cabinet manufacturers use to install speakers on baffles. Would you have any concern about using them here and/or is there any advantage to using wood screws? My concern is that the wood screws might not be sturdy enough. "

Geoff:
"There is no problem if you prefer to use t-nuts. There isn't any particular advantage, in my experience using one over the other. I'd be happy to send some, if you'd like. But there should be no concern the wood screws wouldn't be sturdy enough."

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Geoff sends me wood screws.

I’ll remove the grille on mine and see what fasteners are holding the driver in my RE 10.

Wood screws (NOT drywall / Sheetrock / siding screws) are OK if

• they’re big and long enough
• they’re placed properly, with the right sized pilot hole accurately drilled into a sufficiently large and solid area of the supporting wood
• the wood itself is sufficiently dense, incompressible, and strong to hold the screw when tightened enough
• enough of them are used - ideally, every mounting hole in the frame should get one;
• you check them for tightness; the more you play through it and move it around, the more often you should check; if you’re transporting and gigging with it a few times a week (especially if you’re loud and hitting it with power chords), checking every year or so is the minimum I’d do;

Even with studs and nuts, it’s not unreasonable to check screw tightness every few years. I had a few buzzes and rattles from loose speaker fasteners over the years when I was playing a lot of big, unmic’ed blues gigs. It’s not an issue if the fasteners are well placed and strong enough, you’re not moving and knocking the cabinet around, and if you don’t play very loud.

I’ve also found loose screws from split wood where self-tapping screws were overtightened or placed too close to the edge of the wood. This isn’t limited to speaker screws - you’ll find it on a lot of cheap guitars. One of the flat head wood screws holding the control cavity cover on my old Epi LP (bought new by me) was so close to the edge of the cavity that it had split the wood and could not be tightened.

[Gitterbug]

As we have waded deep into the nitty-gritty, one observation: Overtightening the speaker is also a deadly sin. Pressed steel baskets in particular may warp. In my tubular cab designs, the adapter rings are just 1/4" birch plywood. The speakers are rear mounted with M5 bolts and Nylock self-locking nuts. No need to overtighten. Fortunately, I don't need adapter rings for 12" speakers. It's beyond my reason why a 300W Celestion BN12-300S bass speaker comes with only four mounting holes, while the smaller BN10-200X (luckily) has eight.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Overtightening the speaker is also a deadly sin.

As a general rule, far more damage is done by overtightening almost everything than by undertightening. There are torque tables like these for the maximum torque to be applied to fasteners by material, thread pitch, and diameter. You don’t need to use a torque wrench on everything you screw down. But it’s a big help to have some idea of what different torque amounts feel like, so you learn to feel when it’s in the right range.

When in doubt, hand tighten plus 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Then check periodically to be sure it was enough and hasn’t either backed off or compressed the material being held together.

[sgosnell]

The screws in my RE cabs (two, one sold, one still owned) are indeed wood screws. Lots of people seem to call any screws of that general type sheetrock screws, but that doesn't make them sheetrock screws. Call them what you want, but the ones in my cabinet, which have all been removed multiple times, are not sheetrock screws. Calling something a diamond does not make it one, and calling something crap does not make it that. We should use some care in identifying things, and in assuming what things might be.

[omphalopsychos]

As a general rule, far more damage is done by overtightening almost everything than by undertightening. There are torque tables like these for the maximum torque to be applied to fasteners by material, thread pitch, and diameter. You don’t need to use a torque wrench on everything you screw down. But it’s a big help to have some idea of what different torque amounts feel like, so you learn to feel when it’s in the right range.

When in doubt, hand tighten plus 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Then check periodically to be sure it was enough and hasn’t either backed off or compressed the material being held together.

I always adjust the torque down on my drill/screwdriver to make sure I don’t overtighten anything. Also prevents bubbling up the tolex when you put back panels back on etc.

[ccroft]

Long time cabinet maker here, though I haven't been on the shop floor for about 15 years.

Those are sheetrock screws in Omph's picture. You can tell by the fine thread and bugle head. Nothing wrong with them for for plywood or MDF as long as you don't strip them. In the 80's I worked in a shop that used them for case assembly.

They do suck as screws for hardwood lumber as they have a tendency for the head to snap off under torque. Once again: don't over tighten.

Nowadays there's all kinds of different screws that work fine for this. I think we're using something called 'Lo Root' now. I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean. We use sheet metal screws for attaching some hardwares. Nothing fails if you do it right.

Using wood screws for ply? Why not. But they're designed for pilot holes in lumber. You know, like in the olden days.

Back to the speaker discussion please :-)