Jazz Guitar Weight & Artist Names

[bluejaybill]

This is really getting off-topic, except that Lee Ritenour has a signature guitar. It's just my impression that he, Barney Kessel and even George Benson haven't won all the respect they deserve from us, due to having made money from outside pure jazz. The same goes for Andreas Öberg, who's drifted to the Korean pop music scene. Wes was forgiven for his violins-backed stuff, but what if he had lived longer? OTOH, if a noted player has a parallel career as a rank-and-file studio musician, this may be held to his credit once discovered by posteriority. If you do it for Hollywood, no good. If for Nashville, super. Korrekt me if I'm all wronk.

Yes, I saw Ritenour last year, pretty much a straight ahead jazz gig, and he played wonderfully.

He did pull out an ES and rock out at the end, not my favorite type of playing from him, but whatever.

I find it hard to begrudge someone for trying to make money, after all, those of us for whom music became a side gig or just hobby made the same decision! Some of us found other careers in music, either composing, arranging or playing, and yes, even in Hollywood. I can't lose respect for people who made that decision, which indeed I did myself after scuffling as a player for nearly a decade. I also had a strong sense that late nights in bars and nightclubs was not going to be a good life of me!

One of the best bass players I knew back then went back to school, became a top flight lawyer, retired after a great career, and is back to playing again. Live and let live I say. We all try to make the decisions that are best for us and our families.

[Brazenkane]

Love the feel of the Ibanez Prestige guitars, the overall feel of the Ibanez necks and bodies. I think they've got great designs executed well and that's why artists' and execution converge on a great feeling instrument and certainly not their name.
But the truth for me is that the weight of a laminate guitar creates bulk that I literally don't resonate with. I had a GB-10 I got when I worked for Ibanez (yes I worked for them so I got to pick and choose any model I wanted) and though that Benson is the stuff of fantasy, what it did for me was provide me with the springboard for what was ideal for me.

Taking the body size, neck profile, and other features I liked, I created an idea of what would have been perfect for me at the time. I didn't find that in an Ibanez, but rather in an Eastman.

Truth be told, I set out to build an acoustic arch top GB10 with 7 strings, and while that was being made I ordered that exact instrument from the builders in China where they made it while I was still building mine.
All this to say, I knew what I wanted, had it built and it was light, responsive, had the sound and feel that I wanted without the bulk and laminate design and construction of Ibanez Fujigen guitars.

I'm not about to recommend the course I took; that's your personal journey. But it's your hands that know what you want and there are options out there. Just for kicks, try out an Eastman solid bodied hand built guitar. I could say the same of a Campellone or Benedetto but Eastmans are much more affordable off the bat, and the quality is 100% handbuilt.
Know what you want and be aware of your options. They're out there and there are many on the forum here who, like me, have found their own niche guitars. No reason to take the weight and shortcomings of a good but not perfect guitar (for you) and every reason to search for something that will allow you (no, will make you want) to play forever.
Love the feel of my guitar. It makes me sad to put it down. And it's certainly not because it's too heavy.

Just suggesting your mate is out there.

this is a really fascinating contribution to this thread. Thanks so much for taking the time to write all that! I remember when I was at NAMM many years ago somehow while walking around in the brass instrument section I found myself standing in what was a bunch of jazz guitars. They were called Eastman. I said to my friend, "what's this… Do you know these people?" That may have been the first foray into the United States. And now look, it's a common brand. I know that they make exceptional instruments!

I'm definitely considering a GB 10. But at the same time I want a PM 100.

I'm very curious as to what Guitar you had built for you. Any way to post a picture?

[Brazenkane]

Yes, I saw Ritenour last year, pretty much a straight ahead jazz gig, and he played wonderfully.

He did pull out an ES and rock out at the end, not my favorite type of playing from him, but whatever.

I find it hard to begrudge someone for trying to make money, after all, those of us for whom music became a side gig or just hobby made the same decision! Some of us found other careers in music, either composing, arranging or playing, and yes, even in Hollywood. I can't lose respect for people who made that decision, which indeed I did myself after scuffling as a player for nearly a decade. I also had a strong sense that late nights in bars and nightclubs was not going to be a good life of me!

One of the best bass players I knew back then went back to school, became a top flight lawyer, retired after a great career, and is back to playing again. Live and let live I say. We all try to make the decisions that are best for us and our families.

I've been a guitar professor (in universities) for over 30yrs. A while ago I pretty much gave up gigging. I'll do something here and there, but mostly HERE...as in - here in my teaching studio lol Did enough late nights, driving back at 3am blablalabla. I hear ya. thanks for contributing!

[Brazenkane]

I have an Ibanez LGB300 too and yes, it tends to feel a bit heavy. Just like my mid 90s ES175. The wonderful L5ish sounds coming out of it, the 45mm nut width, feedback resistance (and many other small things) makes the LGB one of my favourite Archtop guitars. I owned many Archtop guitars over the years and the LGB300 checks a lot of boxes for me.
So I bought a 12cm width, heavily padded (Bass)strap for it, hung it up very high (Joe Diorio was mentioned earlier in this thread) and the problem with back and neck pain disapeared. Some neck and back exercises could help a bit too.

I was talking to Peter Farrell and he recounted how George (Benson) told him, "You gotta wear a strap!"

there has been this advert floating around on IG which is about a guitar strap. And there's a guy who has like a really heavy bass and he put on the strap and was extolling its virtues. I seen the advert many times and every time I forget to save it! ARghhh. I would like to try my LGB with a strap made for heavy weight to see how it disperses it.

As far as neck and back exercises, I've got that covered in spades!

[coyote-1]

I’m surprised at the weight of these instruments sometimes. Seems a hollow instrument should be lighter! My Eastman feels like it’s twice the weight of my Lorca classical.

I distribute that weight by propping the guitar between my thighs, in a ‘classical’ posture. It’s what I was taught decades ago from an ergonomics standpoint, and it works as both thighs carry the load and all the angles is good. For plucking it puts your fingers right where they ought be, and for the plectrum it’s the correct location for keeping a firm wrist and picking from your elbow. And it’s ideal for fretting on the fingerboard, and moving up and down.

[Brazenkane]

I gotcha, your femur is bearing the full load. That's no bueno. I only mentioned it cause my current player is in the 8lbs range and standing or sitting I need to change position after a couple hours or it's getting uncomfortable, but not at the level you are dealing with. Shopping for a new is instrument is kind of exciting so best fortunes on the hunt.

just because I'm totally obsessed with this (lol) I watched George Benson demo the LGB 300 when it was new. Sure enough he's wearing a strap and I believe he's actually in some of the videos, sitting down with the arse end of the guitar. I mentioned this in an earlier post I made, but I was talking with Peter Farrell and he was telling me that George told him to absolutely play with the strap and that it was a game changer. It makes sense (after hearing that) that Jorge probably never played the guitar with it just sitting on his knee. So he never would've felt that direct weight.

[Brazenkane]

The Fujigen with floater is very light...

sorry..how do you mean, "floater?"

[Brazenkane]

Laminates will always be heavier than the similar spec'd instrument made from solid carved wood. The laminates by design need more plies in order to achieve the integrity and strength needed to maintain the form and force of the arch. That being said, yes the new generation laminate guitars are quite responsive (less mass, better attack and more sound) but they'll always come in as relative middle weights. The lightweight category goes to the hand carved solids. Those are based on the design philosophy that Jimmy D'Aquisto his distinctive mark with. Some builders who followed him in this 'school' built guitars that were a divergence from the Gibson way of building/carving.
Gibson Johnny Smith will be lighter than Ibanez JP20 (they can get a little heftier with some builders during the Norlin era) despite they're 17" and the JP is 16". Bob Benedetto's own creations fully acoustic follow the lighter design guitar thinking, High end Eastmans are also built notably light. I have a 17" 7 string Jimmy D'Aquisto that is quite a bit lighter than anything else including a 15" GB10. Yunzhei and Wo definitely follow the Eastman/Benedetto lineage, having been top luthiers at Eastman during their hayday.
So I'm not making any judgements on any of these guitars, I happen to love the playability and character of each and every one of the guitars I've mentioned. I'm only saying that when you're talking pure mass and weight, you bet a LOT more strength to weight on a well designed solid wood guitar and a good luthier will know how to use that to their advantage through arch carving and the bracings that will allow for optimization.

Something to think about anyway.

I find your response very interesting and informative!

What are my problems with custom makers… To my ears… Is the absolutely kerplinkety thin top end. It'll be a 6k+ guitar that sounds like unbelievable poop complete with a famous name. It's easy to think, "oh yeah it's just a player." That is until you hear many more players playing like models with the same feature. I'm not saying this is everybody and every custom carved top arch top... But I think you know what I mean

[Jimmy blue note]

I'm definitely considering a GB 10. But at the same time I want a PM 100.

I'm very curious as to what Guitar you had built for you. Any way to post a picture?

This is my 15" 7 string built by Yunzhi. This was before Mr Wu struck out on his own. The workshop of Yunzhi is made up of a master luthier of Eastman who set out on his own with a small group of workers from the Eastman shop. It's built to the specs of the guitar I was building myself, so I could compare and hire them to build in quantity, hence the Westland on the headstock; it's the prototype for my shop. I wanted a 7 string acoustic electric with the body size of the Benson. Nothing out there so I had to have it built.
15" hand carved spruce top, maple sides and back, Benedetto 7 string pickup, mahogany/maple neck, Schaller tuners.
I play fingerstyle and the guitar has a full but balanced voice to it. It's nothing like an L-5 for those who hold that as their standard. I didn't want that. It's a lot closer to the sound of my D'Aquisto than anything else, responsive on the attack, light on the touch and rich with harmonics.
The 15" 7 string:

And here next to the other acoustic electric I play, a little instrument Mick Goodrick gave me. For as different as they are in body size, they both have a voice that is somehow close to each other. Not easy to find just what I want in a 7 string. These fit my needs, not for everyone, but exactly what I need.

[coyote-1]

sorry..how do you mean, "floater?"

Floating pickup.

[Jimmy blue note]

Floating pickup.

Pure acoustic instrument, no electronics set into the top of the guitar. Those pickups are attached to a stationary point and allow the guitar to vibrate freely while taking the pickup signal from the strings.
The pickup floats over the acoustic vibrating parts of the guitar and don't interfere with the acoustic qualities of the guitar. George Bensons, Johnny Smith, Guild Artist Award, some Herb Ellis Gibsons are examples of this type of pickup arrangement.

[Brazenkane]

Pure acoustic instrument, no electronics set into the top of the guitar. Those pickups are attached to a stationary point and allow the guitar to vibrate freely while taking the pickup signal from the strings.
The pickup floats over the acoustic vibrating parts of the guitar and don't interfere with the acoustic qualities of the guitar. George Bensons, Johnny Smith, Guild Artist Award, some Herb Ellis Gibsons are examples of this type of pickup arrangement.

do you know if people are replacing their GB 10 pick ups for something "better?" Or, is the GB 10 pick up an excellent pick up?

[Brazenkane]

This is my 15" 7 string built by Yunzhi. This was before Mr Wu struck out on his own. The workshop of Yunzhi is made up of a master luthier of Eastman who set out on his own with a small group of workers from the Eastman shop. It's built to the specs of the guitar I was building myself, so I could compare and hire them to build in quantity, hence the Westland on the headstock; it's the prototype for my shop. I wanted a 7 string acoustic electric with the body size of the Benson. Nothing out there so I had to have it built.
15" hand carved spruce top, maple sides and back, Benedetto 7 string pickup, mahogany/maple neck, Schaller tuners.
I play fingerstyle and the guitar has a full but balanced voice to it. It's nothing like an L-5 for those who hold that as their standard. I didn't want that. It's a lot closer to the sound of my D'Aquisto than anything else, responsive on the attack, light on the touch and rich with harmonics.
The 15" 7 string:

And here next to the other acoustic electric I play, a little instrument Mick Goodrick gave me. For as different as they are in body size, they both have a voice that is somehow close to each other. Not easy to find just what I want in a 7 string. These fit my needs, not for everyone, but exactly what I need.

fabulous pictures and fascinating looking instruments! I'll bet they sound fabulous! I recently bought a seven string… But it's a Strandberg (Per Nilsson model) Not quite rated "ok" for this forum!!! ;-)

[ccroft]

Laminates will always be heavier than the similar spec'd instrument made from solid carved wood...

I have a little different experience. My B-120 (lam) is the same 6lb 6oz as my carved Lehmann. Both are 16" x 2 3/4, ebony boards & bridges, and same pickup. Both got maple necks and show maple on back and sides. Borys has full size Grovers, and a fairly massive brass tail. Lehmann has smaller Grovers and ebony tail, so many of it's appointments should be lighter.

Both 24 3/4 scale. About as identical spec as can be. Except for the hole in the Lehmann's head stock for... weight relief I guess? Like J. Lage's old lam Manzer. Oh, and the Bory's body is 5/8 shorter. It's over 1/8 thinner at the f-hole. The Lehmann is a thick non-Benedetto type carve.

That said, my carved maple Eastman Pisano 880 is a pound lighter than both of them. Same size & materials throughout and thinner carve. About the same thickness at the f as Borys. I also have a ply Godin with the same dims which is about the same weight as Eastman. Haven't weighed Godin but they feel the same.

I guess I like 16 x 2 3/4, short scale archtops!

In structural wood working it's well known that ply has higher stiffness to weight. Laminated guitar tops don't have to be thicker. The Borys is 3/16" at the f, and presumably the same thickness throughout. 5 plies of 1/32+". I would think the Lehmann gets pretty thick in the middle, judging from it's glorious woody tone, and it's weight.

Maybe heavy lams are the rule with Gibson and Asia? Or maybe you're talking about specs that include thickness of box components?

[Jimmy blue note]

do you know if people are replacing their GB 10 pick ups for something "better?" Or, is the GB 10 pick up an excellent pick up?

They're perfectly fine. They give the distinct George Benson sound.
Pickups are very personal and a great way to start an extremely loyalist and lively debate/discussion.
Early Ibanez floaters sound warmer to me than recent equipped ones. When I got my GB10 (because I was working for Hoshino at the time), I didn't care for the pickups. I loved the sound of the pickups on Gibson Johnny Smith guitars. They're like mini Gibson jaguar pickups with a floating mount. So I had the Seymour Duncan custom shop wind me a pickup with the frequency curve of, I think it was an antiquities or something PAF-ish, and it fit perfect and gave me the sound I like.
Personal taste from a sound picky player.

Always up to you. I happen to like the Duncans that go under the Benedetto name when it comes to floaters. Everyone has their thing. It's what inspires YOU to play more. If you're in love with your sound, you'll play more, you'll get better and your guitar will sound better. Know your gut. Go with your gut. Fall in love with your sound/feel. Shut up and play the guitar!

[JazzNote]

This is really getting off-topic, except that Lee Ritenour has a signature guitar. It's just my impression that he, Barney Kessel and even George Benson haven't won all the respect they deserve from us, due to having made money from outside pure jazz. The same goes for Andreas Öberg, who's drifted to the Korean pop music scene. Wes was forgiven for his violins-backed stuff, but what if he had lived longer? OTOH, if a noted player has a parallel career as a rank-and-file studio musician, this may be held to his credit once discovered by posteriority. If you do it for Hollywood, no good. If for Nashville, super. Korrekt me if I'm all wronk.

Not off-topic - the OP specifically asked for opinions on exactly that!

exerpt from the original post:
so I am curious about what you jazz hands think of having an artist name on a guitar and totally unrelated the idea of weight. I know for some people the latter isn't even a consideration, especially if you're a big guy/girl.

Wes, no matter in which context, always played Wes, the same counts more or less for George, but Lee has two totally different identities and one is based on his electric playing of the late seventies/eighties which is not only stylistically different but represents a totally different approach to guitar playing, utilizing distorted sound, rock technique etc. I think it is legitimate to like one of the identities and not the other. I used to like (& buy) his old albums, went to his performance at the Montreux Jazz Festival with his band Friendship in the eighties, but now, if i put on one of his records from that period, which i still possess, i can't stand listening to it for longer than a minute or two ..... this has neither to do with Hollywood nor with Nashville, but with my personal taste which i'm entitled to (hmmm .... or maybe not anymore in these times of a "brave new world"?)

[Jim Soloway]

Not off-topic - the OP specifically asked for opinions on exactly that!

exerpt from the original post:
so I am curious about what you jazz hands think of having an artist name on a guitar and totally unrelated the idea of weight. I know for some people the latter isn't even a consideration, especially if you're a big guy/girl.

Wes, no matter in which context, always played Wes, the same counts more or less for George, but Lee has two totally different identities and one is based on his electric playing of the late seventies/eighties which is not only stylistically different but represents a totally different approach to guitar playing, utilizing distorted sound, rock technique etc. I think it is legitimate to like one of the identities and not the other. I used to like (& buy) his old albums, went to his performance at the Montreux Jazz Festival with his band Friendship in the eighties, but now, if i put on one of his records from that period, which i still possess, i can't stand listening to it for longer than a minute or two ..... this has neither to do with Hollywood nor with Nashville, but with my personal taste which i'm entitled to (hmmm .... or maybe not anymore in these times of a "brave new world"?)

Interesting observations about Lee Ritenour. My experience with him is very similar to yours. I started listening to him with his first two albums and hung in for a long time but my taste drifted in other directions and much of his output no longer appealed to me. It was frustrating because I knew what he was capable of. He has formidable chops and tremendous musicality which often seems to remain hidden, or even more frustrating, would come out for only one or two songs on an album. Then three years ago he brought out an album called Dream Catcher and 11 of the 13 songs were right where I would want to hear him, all of a single mood and theme, sensitive, beautifully conceived, and beautifully played. Then, right in the middle of the album are two songs that revert to his 90's fusion thing. They were two like big plashes of red in the middle of an otherwise all blue painting. The beauty of digital downloads though is that I get to control the content. I removed the two offending tracks and what remains listens like a wonderful concept album and I think a true masterpiece.

[Cunamara]

do you know if people are replacing their GB 10 pick ups for something "better?" Or, is the GB 10 pick up an excellent pick up?

I have had my 1981 GB10 for 37 years and have never had a thought about replacing the pickups. You can find plenty of discussions about this on the forum; those pickups are the secret sauce to using the GB 10. They are very hot; with the volume turned down to 4–5, it's a very jazzy sounding guitar (along the lines of Johnny Smith); turned up to 8–10, it becomes bright and poppy (more like George's tone). I use the volume knob to primarily define the tone and then the tone knob to tweak it. It will also push a tube amp very well for playing blues.

My guitar is old enough that it has Alnico magnets; some folks have reported that Ibanez transitioned to ceramic magnets in the early 90s with a change in tone. I've never played one of those instruments so I can't confirm, but I hear this from people whose ears I trust such as Jack Zucker.

[Archie]

Aren’t Japanese guitars known for being quite weighty?

I think a lot of their early stuff was modelled on 70's Gibson's and thus they did have quite a weight to them.

They use laminates for the most part so there is added weight by default. I'll disagree with Jimmy Blue Note (although someone far more knowledgable than I), on the heaviness of laminates. I can't imagine a JP20 weighing more than 17" carved guitar but could be wrong. The JP-20 is relatively light compared to an ES-175. Many of todays laminates are very light. As someone else pointed out they are stronger and can be made lighter than carved tops, unless the carved top is a 50's Gibson type? I.e incredibly thin and prone to cracking.

The Ibanez 16' range post 1981, is modelled on Joe Pass's D'aquisto, so they were designed to be lighter and more responsive. In fact they are lighter than Joe Pass's D'aqsuito.

The only time they started making the guitars 'heavier' was to please Mr Benson. A prime example being the GB200, which was much heavier but is essentially the same guitar as the FG-100, Jp-20, Pm20, PM200 etc..

I did a video on the subject here.