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Just looking at the Jensen site. They use loose and tight to describe how their speakers handle bass.
The term loose seems undesirable. Is it bad?
What's best for jazz guitar?
Thanks
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07-03-2023 07:22 AM
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I use jensen in my jazz combo.
Great speakers!
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Loose or tight bass?
Originally Posted by kris
Yes good spakers. I swapped out the stock speakers in a Fender Twin Amp for Jensens. Amp's even heavier!
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for Neo? Originally Posted by garybaldy
Loose or tight bass?
Yes good spakers. I swapped out the stock speakers in a Fender Twin Amp for Jensens. Amp's even heavier!
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I dislike Jensen speakers. Loose, flubby bass is my experience. And not particularly efficient either. I like to play with the amp set to max and I don't play jazz so there is that. I will take JBL D's, K's, or even an E anytime, or a good EV if I can't get JBL's. I have a hard time grasping how someone could consider a Jensen, or pretty much any other cut rate ceramic speaker, preferable over the D and K series regardless of what music you play through it.
There is no accounting for taste I guess but most speakers are cheap-o ceramics while the JBL has a massive and very expensive alnico magnet and was built with no expense spared and is no longer produced because component costs are too high. My only beef is with the D series, the coil gap is too tight and they are prone to blow after five or six months of loud gigging. The K's were likely the best speaker ever made. Like a D in terms of sound but better power handling. Clean and detailed and warm without being flubby or woofy when the gain rises.
Caveat: All JBL's have been reconed at this point and are using what I believe is an E model cone and foam surround so it is not an exacting replica of the original D series paper surround. If they haven't been reconed the paper surround is likely decaying and will need reconed if you put it to service.
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I can't speak to modern versions but original brown/gold foil Jensens N and NA's from the 60s are great speakers, tight bass and smooth highs, they're stock and all I use in my BF Twins and Vibroluxes and I run em loud. But if you like ice pick highs by all means go w JBLs
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Contemporary Jensen hatred is nothing but herd mentality IMO. Not all of the Italian Jensen speakers are great, but they are true to the original. I have had several 50's Jensens and they exhibit the same qualities, loose bass and slightly ratty high end on the small magnet speakers and tight bass with warmer high end on the larger magnet speakers. The modern ones can be great and they have innovated some top notch designs lately (looking at the blackbird 40). If you want the sound of the 50s in your amp, a Jensen part of the recipe. A lot of modern speaker manufacturers are good at replicating Jensen designs. For a louder volume amp, you need a larger magnet. Instead of a P10r, which is an awesome recording speaker, you'd want a P12N with a 30-40 oz alnico magnet.
Comparing JBL to Jensen as better to worse make no sense. These are completely different speaker designs with totally different qualities. A JBL sounds great in some applications (people like them in BF fenders for the extra high end), but speaker choices are totally amp specific.
It comes down to what kind of amp circuit you have, the overall tone you're looking for, and the volume you're playing at. My 1960 Fender Harvard with vintage Jensen p10r is the best sounding amp on a low-gain recording. But the same speaker distorts and sputters at higher volumes. By the same token, large magnet speakers can sound and feel stiff in low wattage amps, making them unpleasant for recording, but they sound great at stage volume.
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My favorite modern speakers for lower volume jazz applications are the Jupiter alnicos. Perfectly balanced, warm, and loads of "character". At higher volumes I'm feeling a lot of love for the Tone Tubby Nashville and a custom Eminence ceramic speaker than came in my Carr Rambler (the amp is bright but the speaker is dark and the combination produces a really thick and articulate clean jazz guitar tone). The speaker is called the "Valiant".
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I find qualitative descriptors of sound almost entirely useless. Someone says "tight (or loose) bass" or "smokey, woody tone", etc., and I have no idea what they're talking about. I google the terms, and all I find is contradiction and confusion. Unless these sorts of terms are accompanied by more specific, quantitative, or technical description, I ignore them. Frequency plots, comparison to familiar recordings, description of distortion or clarity in a portion of the spectrum, fundamentals easy/hard to hear below a certain pitch, resonant peaks -- that's stuff I can make sense of.
I have a ton of personal experience with a JBL D130F and a Jensen C10Q. The D130F was re-coned, but in the early 1980s with a real D130F re-cone kit. The Jensen is an Italian one (not sure how old). I prefer the Jensen. In the amp I use it with, I would not want a different sound. I could see using a more efficient speaker with the same frequency response character in order to get more clean headroom, but I doubt I'd ever go back the D130F sound. DawgBone clearly has very different ideas about what makes for a good guitar sound from me.Last edited by John A.; 07-03-2023 at 02:32 PM.
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I only have experience with vintage Jensens, the problem is that they were underpowered for the most part in the amps they were in. Two P10R's in a tweed super were nowhere near enough for that amp. In general I didn't have much use for them and sold all of my tweed amps. The reason is: "loose" bass, which in my mind is fuzzy farty bass which I find I don't like in almost any guitar scenario, except maybe four vintage Celestions in a Marshall cabinet. Plus they just go into breakup too early for me, though they sound good right before breakup. Keep in mind that when I had these amps, I was mostly into studio recording, and I just couldn't have that lack of focus and control. Great for blues and roots rock, though they are not really loud enough for a medium to loud gig as Dawgbone says. And good for vintage style recording at lower volume. I believe the Rudy van Gelder guitar recordings were done on tweed Deluxes, most likely with Jensen 12's. Great classic sound.
I don't know about the modern Jensens, but plenty of companies make speakers in that style, of which Jupiter is the most well known. Jupiter is manufactured by WGS, who also make Fat Jimmy speakers. Both change the recipe of existing WGS models to taste. I like the Fat Jimmy 1270, and I have it in a Fat Jimmy 20 watt amp and a vintage Deluxe reverb. They are reminiscent of old speakers, with tight (meaning solid fundamental, non-distorting) bass, nice mids and highs and no ice pick. They sound very nice for jazz and other classic tones, but I prefer Brit speakers for distortion.
I only had a JBL in an old Jim Kelly amp, and I wasn't too crazy about it. As far as old high powered speakers go, nothing compares in my mind to an old alnico EV SRO "coffee can" speaker, they sounded glorious. Unfortunately the recone kits no longer exist for them and they are usually reconed with other EV cones now. YMMV etc.
As far as low powered vintage speakers, I just really prefer vintage Celestions, I have some early alnico and greenbacks that sound great- up to a certain volume!
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I love the (modern, reissue) P10R in my 5F1 clone! Reviews on the web always scream that it’s a shrill and harsh speaker but it’s quite the opposite: it’s rich, warm with a piano-like quality in the upper mids to it.
Is the bass tight or loose? Oh boy…. Vague descriptions, susceptible to interpretation…. It sounds good, that’s all I know!
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I'm considering a Jensen c8r for a little Peavey battery amp ('tight' bass!) that I purchased very recently. I know it's ceramic but I'm not sure yet that that will even fit.It'll cost more than the amp.
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Not sure why the quote icon doesn't work worth a dang unless I quote an entire post, from the person who posted it.
[QUOTE]But if you like ice pick highs by all means go w JBLs[/QUOTE]
Ice pick highs are a myth propagated over and over. Amps have an EQ for a reason.
[QUOTE]Contemporary Jensen hatred is nothing but herd mentality IMO.[/QUOTE]
??? I would say the opposite. Last time I mentioned not liking Jensens very much on a guitar forum about a year ago I was roundly bashed and people said I was trolling and called me stupid, lol. I have owned a few and have played other amps with them. For high volume playing they aren't good and actually, at volume, sound to me exactly as you described. Loose bass and ratty highs. Inefficient with not very much punch.
I can see how someone doing jazz or something clean and/or lower volume with a lower output amp might like the warmer bass and less concise top end. I am just more in the JBL and EV camp. I like powerful clean speakers that don't break up a lot at high volume and don't blow up when you beat them. But yes, I am a BF fender guy solely. Twins. I still prefer a JBL in a Deluxe too. And though I don't like Deluxes much, I do think a Jensen is a lot better in a Deluxe than they are in a Twin. They just don't handle high power well IME. I don't think Jensen was considering people cranking them in a Twin when designed, which makes sense to me.
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[QUOTE=DawgBone;1274104]Not sure why the quote icon doesn't work worth a dang unless I quote an entire post, from the person who posted it.
[QUOTE]But if you like ice pick highs by all means go w JBLs[/QUOTE]
Ice pick highs are a myth propagated over and over. Amps have an EQ for a reason.
You must have either missed or dismissed my post. except for the JBL ice pick part.Contemporary Jensen hatred is nothing but herd mentality IMO.[/QUOTE]
??? I would say the opposite. Last time I mentioned not liking Jensens very much on a guitar forum about a year ago I was roundly bashed and people said I was trolling and called me stupid, lol. I have owned a few and have played other amps with them. For high volume playing they aren't good and actually, at volume, sound to me exactly as you described. Loose bass and ratty highs. Inefficient with not very much punch.
I can see how someone doing jazz or something clean and/or lower volume with a lower output amp might like the warmer bass and less concise top end. I am just more in the JBL and EV camp. I like powerful clean speakers that don't break up a lot at high volume and don't blow up when you beat them. But yes, I am a BF fender guy solely. Twins. I still prefer a JBL in a Deluxe too. And though I don't like Deluxes much, I do think a Jensen is a lot better in a Deluxe than they are in a Twin. They just don't handle high power well IME. I don't think Jensen was considering people cranking them in a Twin when designed, which makes sense to me.
Up until I jacked up my knee a couple years ago and switched back to BF Vibrolux Reverbs [for now] I used a BF Twin w/ brown/gold foil C12NA's exclusively for about 30 years, and I'm playing extremely loud in a Hammond B-3 organ trio w/ an L-5 [probably too loud, but tell that to a B-3 player w one or two Leslie 122's at their disposal]
I don't know if Jensen was considering them being in a Twin but Leo Fender was, they came stock in BF Twins in '64, 66 and '67, though he was notoriously known for being cheap so maybe he just got a deal on them. Not sure what he was thinking w Oxfords in a Twin in '65 unless it was a cost thing again, those speakers are best put in the trash imo. JBL's were an option at the time though. When I bought my first BF Twin back then one had a blown Jensen and I immediately sent both speakers to be reconed, including the working one, I didn't want to deal with a ticking time bomb on a gig which is what a 30 year old paper cone was then, the speakers are almost 60 yrs old now. I've cranked that amp from here to kingdom come and the speakers are still holding up great and sound it.
ymmv....
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I didn't miss or dismiss your post. I just don't agree with the idea that JBL's are all about icepick highs. I can EQ just about any guitar/amp/speaker combo to get icepick highs, the speaker doesn't really matter. Or maybe my idea of a crisp or sizzling top end is your icepick? Lots of great players used JBL's and their tone is never described as icepick so aren't we talking about EQ? All I would agree on there is if you are setting your amp EQ for icepick highs, the JBL will excel more than most speakers. Therefore my conclusion is what you suggested is just user error in EQ'ing. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I'm not trying to be condescending but perhaps my version of loud and yours are different? You've cranked the amp from here to kingdom come. What does that mean? And for how long? What I mean by loud is the amp all the way up to "12" Treble 12 mid and bass 1 and I am riding the guitar's volume control in the 4-8 range all night. 4 or 5 for most rhythms, 6, 7 or 8 for leads and one or two numbers where the rhythm tone was very loud, about 8 on the guitar, and driving. i.e a boogie, which would push the speaker the hardest. I had Jensens in the Twin for a few gigs while I sought JBL's. Fully cranked as I described the highest vol settings it sounded like speakers just running more wattage than they were designed for. Maybe that's the natural breakup(?) but to my ears it sounded like a speaker being pushed to the point of failure, not just breakup. You could hear heavy farting out on the low end. Like there was more movement than the coil was designed to handle. Maybe I was just worrying to much at the time but I generally beat my gear without concern for damaging stuff so I doubt it, lol.
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It's not a contest but usually amp volume around 6 or 7 and I don't have the mid and treble dimed, usually around 6-7, but bass around 5 or 6. Guitar on about 5-8 depending on the room/situation. Originally Posted by DawgBone
You keep dismissing Jensens, what speakers exactly?
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So what kind of music do you play? I think you said in an earlier post that you don't play jazz?
Originally Posted by DawgBone
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I wasn't making it a contest, I was describing the way I set the amp for most gigs. You said you cranked it to kingdom come, which was kind of an exaggeration. Originally Posted by wintermoon
C12n's. I gave them away. At the time I didn't realize that other players found them that desirable otherwise maybe I would've tried to get money for them. I thought they were junk tbh and I had two sets of JBL's already plus a set of English Celestions I liked more than the Jensens. I guess I dismissed them.
@Phil59, blues.
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I doubt that many on this jazz board have had the opportunity to play a twin up all the way with the treble on 12! It has been at least 40 years since I played in a bad that was near that loud. And no, Jensens, even with "N" magnets, the heaviest type, probably can't stay together at that volume. However I can't imagine a twin at 12, treble on 12 into JBL's either, that makes my teeth hurt just thinking about it! Do your JBL's have the aluminum dust caps? I have heard that the caps are what make a JBL a bit brittle, if indeed they are. My Jim Kelley with the JBL was 4 6V6's, probably 50 watts, that thing I couldn't turn up loud at all. Plus with the JBL and the solid 3/4" maple cabinet, I couldn't lift it off the ground, so I sold it to John Fogerty. I guess he thought it was too heavy too, I saw it at an amp shop in Reseda not long after. Right next to a Dumble ODS ($10K!), undoubtably the best amp I've ever played. Originally Posted by DawgBone
But I digress. Jazzers would probably use a twin with bass and treble on 2 and mids up, in clean territory, that is a gorgeous sound. JBL or not.
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You mean like having your settings on 12? Originally Posted by DawgBone
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I tried a Twin with JBLs once and loved the sound, much more than any Jensen, but had the treble at 1. In fact, in my modelling rig, I use a York Audio D120F Twin IR.
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You don't play jazz? Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Good with me. I've enjoyed your comments. I play Charlie Christian and Django at home, and blues and classic rock in regular jams. So why are you on a pretty hard-core jazz website? Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Sorry, I meant 10. Your past few posts sound like you are ready to make beef. I don't get it. I was trying to be civil. I hope your night is well. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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No beef whatsoever but you always seem to speak in absolutes w comments like "they're junk" Originally Posted by DawgBone
Llke it's your way or the highway.
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