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I recently bought a 1966 Fender Princeton (nonreverb). Sounds great. Not loud enough. OK at home, but not at a jam with a drummer. It has the original speaker, a Jensen gold label C8306, apparently either a C10N or C10NS. I am looking for the same sound, just louder: clean, little or no breakup. I've done considerable research but I trust the insights of this community more than any other. Thanks.
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05-15-2023 03:24 PM
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Deluxe Reverb or Vibrolux Reverb in that order
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A JBL D11OF will help, but you will still find the headroom lacking with a loud drummer.
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To clarify, I am looking for a modern speaker that sounds like the original. I am not looking for either another amp or another vintage speaker.
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I put an EV10 in my '68 Princeton non-reverb and it sounds amazing. It stays clean up to around 7 on the volume in channel 1. Channel 2 stays clean up to 9. I have not played it in a band setting yet, but it would be OK if the group isn't too loud.
Since EV's (and JBL's) are hard to come by these days, an Eminence Legend is a good substitute. Another great 10" speaker is the Rajun Cajun.
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I'll answer your question but I also want to call out my thoughts:
Speaker Options
The JBL will give you more headroom, but it sounds very different from a Jensen C10N.
Check out Jupiter 10LC for a high sensitivity speaker with the construction style and tonal fingerprint of a Jensen C10N.
Eminence also makes some very high sensitivity 10" speakers, but I find that Eminence speakers sound too midrangey, lacking the nuance and detail of Jensens. People like them for rock because the dull high end tames the harmonics in distorted/overdriven tones. I just think they sound ugly.
The amp
But WM and SS are right. You're not going to get a vintage Princeton to cut through the mix with a loud drummer. Some of the boutique reproductions made today have more headroom: some of them come with upgraded transformers, high sensitivity 12" speakers, and 6L6 tubes, getting to 25W+. I wouldn't do those mods to my pre cbs Princeton Reverb, but I've thought about upgrading the transformers on my Headstrong Lil King Reverb.
You could also get a Deluxe Reverb. The downside of a Deluxe Reverb is that it's 10-11 lbs heavier than a Princeton Reverb; 13-14 lbs heavier than a Princeton Non-Reverb. If you want the headroom of a deluxe without the weight, check out the Deluxe Non-Reverb; those weigh about 30lbs; not much more than a Princeton Reverb.
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You don’t tell us what kind of music you play or on what, so it’s hard to be specific in recommendations. But I think you’re destined for disappointment trying to make a ‘66 Princeton loud. The most efficient 10 I know of is a Ragin Cajun 10 at a rated 100.5 dB (1 Watt @ 1 meter). A D110F is 98 as I recall, as are several other current 10s. The JBL stays clean pretty much all the way to its output limit, but your amp won’t.
Originally Posted by Phil59
Good luck.
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I don't have any written documentation but my comparison to a 10" Celestion Gold (98db) confirms this subjectively. Had this pair in a vibrolux. It sounded massive, but not like what I consider a traditional BF Fender sound. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Ragin Cajun is a loud speaker that I couldn't get out of my amp fast enough. Too much midrange honk, very dull treble.
Seriously, I recommend people who haven't gone speaker shopping in a while to check out the Jupiters. 99db senstivity at 1w/1m. I've had a bunch of vintage jensens and auditioned a lot of modern speakers. I'm confident that no other speaker manufacturer today gets as close to the sound of original jensens.
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The Jupiter or a Fat Jimmy 1060 would get my vote, but I agree that it will probably not get you to the volume you think. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
The speaker you have in there is considered to be one of the best speakers for that amp, don't lose it! But definitely consider using that for practice and something stouter for playing with folks.
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Agreed - I wasn’t recommending it for its sound quality. But it’s the most efficient 10 I know of. We still don’t even know what kind of music the OP plays, which makes it hard to recommend anything based on a characteristic other than efficiency. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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That Jensen in your Princeton is my favorite 10" speaker ever. They're stock in my Vibrolux Reverbs, there's one in my Princeton Reverb too. PR's stay cleaner than their reverb counterparts but still can't handle a band situation very well unmiced, neither can a DR in my experience.
I haven't tried the Jupiter omph recommends but sounds interesting as a close replacement.
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Some great comments, thanks.
Replying to some of them, I already have a blackface Fender Deluxe Reverb that is wonderful but too heavy and too valuable to take out. I have been playing Django, Charlie Christian stuff at home. I also play in a jam band, mostly classic rock. For that I have been using an excellent Victoria Ivy League, which is a clone of the Fender Harvard tweed amp. It has 14 watts of power and a great Jensen 60s speaker installed by the Jazz Forum member who sold it to me. Great amp, and loud enough for my jam needs, and it takes pedals well.
Therefore, is it not reasonable to assume that the Fender Princeton, with 12 watts of power and a beautiful but inefficient speaker, could be adapted without losing its character, to achieve a similar goal of playing out but with a different sound?
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Oh yeah that’s right you bought my Ivy League! I’ve been thinking about that amp lately. Try out that Jupiter speaker. If you like my taste in speakers, based on that Ivy League with the P12R you will probably like it.
It’s worth a shot. You are going to lose some of the clarity of your c10n in exchange for volume but no other modern speaker with that kind of efficiency is going to sound closer.
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I put a Jupiter in my (sorely missed) Ivy League and it was a great combination. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I seem to recall that era of Princeton having a removable baffle. If that’s so, possible to put in a twelve inch speaker with an aftermarket baffle? I have a dim recollection of doing that with my non-reverb Princeton of similar vintage.
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You might find this useful: BF/SF Princeton | fenderguru.com
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One more suggestion: Jensen P10/40 BB (BlackBird) AlNiCo.
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No, I don’t think it is reasonable. In fact, I have a hard time imagining that it’s even possible. I’m frankly amazed that you can hang with a classic rock band using the little Victoria. You must be pushing the front end really hard with your pedals - your tone at that level can’t be anywhere close to clean. Originally Posted by Phil59
Now that we know what you’re playing, I think a Ragin Cajun might sound fine for you. And it’s probably the closest you’ll come to being loud enough. It’s not good for jazz, but you have amps at home that will cover that.
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Originally Posted by Gitterbug
The blackbirds are great. Thank you for recommending them to me here. But they’re not nearly as efficient as others mentioned in this thread.
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Yes, it's classic rock but evidently not as loud as you think. Even with a Tele or Strat, the Victoria is rarely turned up past 7. And I hardly use any pedals. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Thanks. I had read this before, but just reread it with new perspective. Quite helpful. Originally Posted by skiboyny
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I was hoping to stick with a 10" speaker. But the 12" is a common change. I have a '60s Jensen C12Q that needs to be reconed. Originally Posted by bmw2002
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What band instrumentation and venue/set-ups are we talking about here? I mean a Princeton with a reasonably efficient speaker is quite loud in my experience. I have a PR with a C10Q (a little more power than a non-reverb, but a less efficient speaker than a C10N or NS, so similar loudness when the smoke clears). With the volume on 4 it's very loud, and easily keeps up with bass, drums, another guitar or keys, and a sax in blues band in bar-band gigs.
While it's certainly true that there are settings where these amps wouldn't keep up (at least not while staying clean), if it's getting drowned out in a jam band sort of setting I'd look toward getting the overall volume down to where it can keep up before I'd look to swapping speakers or bringing in a louder amp. I mean if you're trying to fill a 200-seat room without mic'ing the amp, sure, you need something bigger than a Princeton. But if this is a small venue or rehearsal room kind of setting, and a cranked Princeton isn't keeping up, that's really loud. I've done bar band gigs with many different small combo amps in that power/loudness range, and I typically can't even turn the amp up loud enough to get it to overdrive in these settings and am using pedals for dirt..
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Thanks, Juan. I have contacted Jupiter. Their speakers apparently are made by Warehouse (WGS). The other two new speakers under consideration are the Weber 10F150T and Eminence GA10-SC64. My current inference is that both would be good for a classic rock sound but maybe less faithful to the Princeton's original character.
Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I'll answer your question but I also want to call out my thoughts:
Speaker Options
The JBL will give you more headroom, but it sounds very different from a Jensen C10N.
Check out Jupiter 10LC for a high sensitivity speaker with the construction style and tonal fingerprint of a Jensen C10N.
Eminence also makes some very high sensitivity 10" speakers, but I find that Eminence speakers sound too midrangey, lacking the nuance and detail of Jensens. People like them for rock because the dull high end tames the harmonics in distorted/overdriven tones. I just think they sound ugly.
The amp
But WM and SS are right. You're not going to get a vintage Princeton to cut through the mix with a loud drummer. Some of the boutique reproductions made today have more headroom: some of them come with upgraded transformers, high sensitivity 12" speakers, and 6L6 tubes, getting to 25W+. I wouldn't do those mods to my pre cbs Princeton Reverb, but I've thought about upgrading the transformers on my Headstrong Lil King Reverb.
You could also get a Deluxe Reverb. The downside of a Deluxe Reverb is that it's 10-11 lbs heavier than a Princeton Reverb; 13-14 lbs heavier than a Princeton Non-Reverb. If you want the headroom of a deluxe without the weight, check out the Deluxe Non-Reverb; those weigh about 30lbs; not much more than a Princeton Reverb.
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I gigged for years with a BFDR and an efficient speaker, and extension speaker, and it was often not quite loud and clean enough. So I would say that for me a Princeton would not be enough in a classic rock or a jazz situation. There is only so much you can get out of that wattage. You might try plugging into a more efficient extension speaker an see how it works. A lot depends on if you mike it, how loud you your band is etc. You have a nice lineup of amps there, all low wattage tough, why not bring two? The Ivy league and the Princeton might get you there. Originally Posted by Phil59
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Chunking, does it work for Jazz improv?
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