Fender Princeton replacement speaker?

[Glin66]

Tone Tubby Alnico Red could be a good option

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Yes, it's classic rock but evidently not as loud as you think.

Some detail would be helpful. You still haven't described the band and venues in which you play, so we're all just guessing based on our own experience. There's classic rock...



and there's classic rock -

I hardly use any pedals.

Sorry - I obviously misinterpreted your comment in post #12 that suggsted that pedals were important to your sound:

I have been using an excellent Victoria Ivy League, which is a clone of the Fender Harvard tweed amp. It has 14 watts of power and a great Jensen 60s speaker installed by the Jazz Forum member who sold it to me. Great amp, and loud enough for my jam needs, and it takes pedals well.

I think I've got it now. You're not using pedals, you don't think your band is very loud, and you're hanging with them through a 14W Ivy League that's giving you enough clean SPL to do the job you want it to do without breakup. Per post #12, your Deluxe is too heavy and valuable to use outside your home. And from post #1, you want your Princeton to be loud and clean with little or no breakup. I'm assuming (again) that if your Deluxe is too heavy to take out, you don't want to carry a second speaker cabinet (another way to get more sound). And you want to be able to use the Princeton interchangeably with the Ivy League. That's one serious conundrum.

IIRC, the C10N had a sensitivity of about 95-96 dB. Going to a speaker with 3 dB greater sensitivity will get you a noticeable but not at all dramatic difference in sound output. If you go to something like the Ragin Cajun (which, again, I don't like for jazz at all - but it's praised by rock players all over the web), you'll pick up about 6 dB in sensitivity. That's a more noticeable increase in SPL, and it might put you in the range you need. I hope so, because it's probably the highest sensitivity you're going to find in a 10" speaker. Warehouse has 2 100dB 10s in their "British" section, but I don't know anything about them. Even an EVM 10M is only a 100 dB speaker at 1 Watt / 1 meter.

You might also consider a clean boost pedal and a plug-in octal solid state rectifier instead of your tube rectifier.

[John A.]

Some detail would be helpful. You still haven't described the band and venues in which you play, so we're all just guessing based on our own experience. There's classic rock...

Wow, Buddy was quite the early adopter of wireless technology.

[Phil59]

We play in one room about 20x30, usually six to eight of us. Yes, the pedal comments are contradictory. All I use are a boost pedal and overdrive, and the overdrive very little. I can turn the Princeton up to 10, or play it at 7 or so and add some boost. But I don't want to play at those levels the whole time and blow the speaker. I have been unable to find the sensitivity rating of the Jensen C10N. My Deluxe Reverb is very loud. Its speaker is a 1969 Jensen Concert Series C12N8, 50 watts. I am not trying to even come close to that.

Some detail would be helpful. You still haven't described the band and venues in which you play, so we're all just guessing based on our own experience. There's classic rock...



and there's classic rock -




Sorry - I obviously misinterpreted your comment in post #12 that suggsted that pedals were important to your sound:



I think I've got it now. You're not using pedals, you don't think your band is very loud, and you're hanging with them through a 14W Ivy League that's giving you enough clean SPL to do the job you want it to do without breakup. Per post #12, your Deluxe is too heavy and valuable to use outside your home. And from post #1, you want your Princeton to be loud and clean with little or no breakup. I'm assuming (again) that if your Deluxe is too heavy to take out, you don't want to carry a second speaker cabinet (another way to get more sound). And you want to be able to use the Princeton interchangeably with the Ivy League. That's one serious conundrum.

IIRC, the C10N had a sensitivity of about 95-96 dB. Going to a speaker with 3 dB greater sensitivity will get you a noticeable but not at all dramatic difference in sound output. If you go to something like the Ragin Cajun (which, again, I don't like for jazz at all - but it's praised by rock players all over the web), you'll pick up about 6 dB in sensitivity. That's a more noticeable increase in SPL, and it might put you in the range you need. I hope so, because it's probably the highest sensitivity you're going to find in a 10" speaker. Warehouse has 2 100dB 10s in their "British" section, but I don't know anything about them. Even an EVM 10M is only a 100 dB speaker at 1 Watt / 1 meter.

You might also consider a clean boost pedal and a plug-in octal solid state rectifier instead of your tube rectifier.

[Phil59]

From what I understand, the Princeton Reverb is noticeably louder than the nonreverb because it has an extra gain stage. Fender did not make a comparable nonreverb to reverb change in its other amps.

What band instrumentation and venue/set-ups are we talking about here? I mean a Princeton with a reasonably efficient speaker is quite loud in my experience. I have a PR with a C10Q (a little more power than a non-reverb, but a less efficient speaker than a C10N or NS, so similar loudness when the smoke clears). With the volume on 4 it's very loud, and easily keeps up with bass, drums, another guitar or keys, and a sax in blues band in bar-band gigs.

While it's certainly true that there are settings where these amps wouldn't keep up (at least not while staying clean), if it's getting drowned out in a jam band sort of setting I'd look toward getting the overall volume down to where it can keep up before I'd look to swapping speakers or bringing in a louder amp. I mean if you're trying to fill a 200-seat room without mic'ing the amp, sure, you need something bigger than a Princeton. But if this is a small venue or rehearsal room kind of setting, and a cranked Princeton isn't keeping up, that's really loud. I've done bar band gigs with many different small combo amps in that power/loudness range, and I typically can't even turn the amp up loud enough to get it to overdrive in these settings and am using pedals for dirt..

[skiboyny]

Eminence GA-SC64-10 Great in a princeton I have the GA-SC64-12 in my princeton. Sounds great very efficient.

[Phil59]

Eminence GA-SC64-10 Great in a princeton I have the GA-SC64-12 in my princeton. Sounds great very efficient.

Princeton, not Princeton Reverb? What did you have to do to get the 12 in there?

[skiboyny]

Princeton, not Princeton Reverb? What did you have to do to get the 12 in there?

It's a Princeton Reverb clone so no problems

[John A.]

From what I understand, the Princeton Reverb is noticeably louder than the nonreverb because it has an extra gain stage. Fender did not make a comparable nonreverb to reverb change in its other amps.

IME, a PR is a bit louder, but not dramatically so, and the extra volume comes when it's already into the distortion zone. A non-reverb on 7-8 is probably similar volume to a PR on 4-5. If you turn a PR up beyond that, it gets a bit louder until 8-sh, and a lot dirtier. Beyond that, it just gets dirtier without getting louder. The non-reverb stays clean all the way up, which for people who don't want distortion makes it effectively about as loud as a PR, or even louder for their purposes.

[omphalopsychos]

A few notes. Some are objective, some subjective.

(1) Most people overestimate the loudness of a non-reverb princeton. A lot of people who have never played one say they have more headroom than a princeton reverb. However because of the absence of the extra gain stage, they're actually much quieter. Yes you can turn the volume knob higher without distorting, but that same point on the dial is not necessarily going to be much louder (if at all) than the point at which a princeton reverb breaks up. Whether they distort at the same volume level depends on many factors including the tubes, condition of the amp, the level of the incoming signal. All of these affect the gain staging and headroom.

(2) Fender DID make a non-reverb blackface deluxe. They weigh only a little more than a princeton reverb and they're much louder.

(3) (Opinion) 12" speakers in a princeton cabinet sound boxy. They reduce the available baffle area to resonate.

(4) Eminence GA SC 64 speakers have substantially more midrange and less treble than a jensen style speaker. If you like the sound of your C10N, you're going to miss it if you put an eminence in there.

[skiboyny]

A few notes. Some are objective, some subjective.

(1) Most people overestimate the loudness of a non-reverb princeton. A lot of people who have never played one say they have more headroom than a princeton reverb. However because of the absence of the extra gain stage, they're actually much quieter. Yes you can turn the volume knob higher without distorting, but that same point on the dial is not necessarily going to be much louder (if at all) than the point at which a princeton reverb breaks up. Whether they distort at the same volume level depends on many factors including the tubes, condition of the amp, the level of the incoming signal. All of these affect the gain staging and headroom.

(2) Fender DID make a non-reverb blackface deluxe. They weigh only a little more than a princeton reverb and they're much louder.

(3) (Opinion) 12" speakers in a princeton cabinet sound boxy. They reduce the available baffle area to resonate.

(4) Eminence GA SC 64 speakers have substantially more midrange and less treble than a jensen style speaker. If you like the sound of your C10N, you're going to miss it if you put an eminence in there.

I would have to say your number 4 is true it was within my criteria for a speaker change. Keeping it real...

[omphalopsychos]

(5) OPINION. Assuming this experiment doesnt pan out, I do recommend making the mental distinction between your studio/practice amps and your gigging amps. A non reverb princeton is a wonderful sounding amp. But there's a chance it might not work for you without modification. You could get an additional amp, which would be a clone of a princeton. You could customize it for more watts (larger transformers and 6l6s). That would be my recommendation.

Even if you get a modern, louder Jensen-like speaker, it's not going to sound as good as your original C10N at lower volumes. I say keep the C10N in your home/studio princeton and get a clone with larger transformers for jams. You can even get a 12", but I recommend getting a bigger cabinet it you do that.

[Stringswinger]

IME, a PR is a bit louder, but not dramatically so, and the extra volume comes when it's already into the distortion zone. A non-reverb on 7-8 is probably similar volume to a PR on 4-5. If you turn a PR up beyond that, it gets a bit louder until 8-sh, and a lot dirtier. Beyond that, it just gets dirtier without getting louder. The non-reverb stays clean all the way up, which for people who don't want distortion makes it effectively about as loud as a PR, or even louder for their purposes.

I have a 1964 Non-verb Princeton. The stock Oxford speaker was very flabby on the low end with an archtop, so I replaced it with a Weber 10F150 speaker (not the thin cone version that the rock guys all love) and that made it way better for jazz (both a cleaner, fuller sound and more headroom). Eventually I sourced a re-coned JBL-D-110F and that is what lives in that amp today. Even with the JBL, when I turn the amp past 8, there is some dirt, particularly with chords (and I do not like that in a jazz setting) and in a loud room with drums, I get lost in the mix. That amp is for recording and small venues only. The bigger venues get one of my solid State amps (Anything bigger than the Princeton in a tube amp is too heavy for this admittedly lazy, 65 year old jazz guitarist). HTH

[John A.]

A few notes. Some are objective, some subjective.

(1) Most people overestimate the loudness of a non-reverb princeton. A lot of people who have never played one say they have more headroom than a princeton reverb. However because of the absence of the extra gain stage, they're actually much quieter. Yes you can turn the volume knob higher without distorting, but that same point on the dial is not necessarily going to be much louder (if at all) than the point at which a princeton reverb breaks up. Whether they distort at the same volume level depends on many factors including the tubes, condition of the amp, the level of the incoming signal. All of these affect the gain staging and headroom.

FWIW, I once did a gig playing through a borrowed non-reverb SF Princeton, with the other guitarist in the band using a stock PRRI. I don't know what speaker was in the non-Reverb, but it stayed clean appreciably louder than the PRRI. OTOH, I've done gigs with the same band using my 78 PR with a C10Q, and the other guitarist using his PRRI with a C10R. Mine is a lot louder. Speaker efficiency makes a big difference.

[DawgBone]

If a princeton had enough volume to get on top of my band with clean tones with I'd fire the drummer. If he can't keep up with a good Twin or Super he'd be looking for a new gig. Life is to short to waste on a drummer whose backbeat isn't audible. A drummer without a rimshot, sadly all too common these days.

A high efficiency speaker isn't going to help enough to make it worth the money and time. A princeton is basically a student practice amp from the 70's. I don't get the obsession people have with them. Maybe if you were using a deluxe a good JBL would help, but OP's Princeton is underpowered already and a deluxe is still a pretty low wattage amp that is also mostly unusable if you have an actual rockin' band, unless you are just playing dirty rhythm guitar. This whole attempt at making it work via a speaker is a huge waste of time and money. Get a bigger amp.

[John A.]

If a princeton had enough volume to get on top of my band with clean tones with I'd fire the drummer. If he can't keep up with a good Twin or Super he'd be looking for a new gig. Life is to short to waste on a drummer whose backbeat isn't audible. A drummer without a rimshot, sadly all too common these days.

A high efficiency speaker isn't going to help enough to make it worth the money and time. A princeton is basically a student practice amp from the 70's. I don't get the obsession people have with them. Maybe if you were using a deluxe a good JBL would help, but OP's Princeton is underpowered already and a deluxe is still a pretty low wattage amp that is also mostly unusable if you have an actual rockin' band, unless you are just playing dirty rhythm guitar. This whole attempt at making it work via a speaker is a huge waste of time and money. Get a bigger amp.

Your experience is your experience, not a universal truth. Where I live and perform, Deluxes are the most common house backline amp and Princetons and Blues Juniors are more than loud enough for many rooms. The biggest problem most blues/rock players face here is not being able to turn up one of these loud enough for a good tone.

[Phil59]

You have spoken. And so has my amp. Yesterday, I played three guitars through it for an hour. The tone was as "pure" and good as through my beloved blackface Deluxe Reverb. I have decided to leave the amp as is. Thanks.

[DawgBone]

Your experience is your experience, not a universal truth. Where I live and perform, Deluxes are the most common house backline amp and Princetons and Blues Juniors are more than loud enough for many rooms. The biggest problem most blues/rock players face here is not being able to turn up one of these loud enough for a good tone.

Can't get a kiddie amp up loud enough for good tone? What a pathetic place to gig.

[John A.]

Can't get a kiddie amp up loud enough for good tone? What a pathetic place to gig.

Jazz capital of the world, FWIW, with lots of other music as well. Many venues are in small spaces with poor soundproofing in or adjacent to residential buildings. Most musicians travel on foot or by mass transit. Big amps are useless here. It’s pathetic to gig here, and everywhere else much of the time. Such is the lot of a musician.

[DawgBone]

Jazz capital of the world, FWIW, with lots of other music as well. Many venues are in small spaces with poor soundproofing in or adjacent to residential buildings. Most musicians travel on foot or by mass transit. Big amps are useless here. It’s pathetic to gig here, and everywhere else much of the time. Such is the lot of a musician.

LOL. Why torture yourself?

FL is a similar situation to NYC. Another reason I moved to TX to gig. There are tons of new yorkers there, which is probably a part of why most of the gig scene sucks. I don't play background music and upper east coast geezers with money want to stuff their face while you play quietly so they can converse. It's more about the bragging rights i.e "we have live music" than the actual live music. I never understood those kind of clubs but I always snicker when they are run that way because the doors will be closing soon. Most bar owners don't have a damn clue what they are doing. If I can't/won't get a gig there today I know tomorrow it'll be someone else's club and I will have a gig. Probably the worst part of TX is there isn't a decent slice of pizza to be found between El Paso and Beaumont and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. NY people make the best pizza.

[John A.]

LOL. Why torture yourself?

Duh, for glory, female adulation, and giant stacks of cash. Obviously.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Duh, for glory, female adulation, and giant stacks of cash. Obviously.

Words worthy of Hemingway - what an elegant description of our lives, John!

[bluejaybill]

Jazz capital of the world, FWIW, with lots of other music as well. Many venues are in small spaces with poor soundproofing in or adjacent to residential buildings. Most musicians travel on foot or by mass transit. Big amps are useless here. It’s pathetic to gig here, and everywhere else much of the time. Such is the lot of a musician.

Yes, but the music is better than it is in places where they allow grown-up amps. IMHO. YMMV. Etc etc.

[Stringswinger]

Duh, for glory, female adulation, and giant stacks of cash. Obviously.

The only glory is the joy of having at least one decent solo in an evening. The female adulation (which is rare these days) generally comes from white haired grandmothers and the stacks of cash (also rare these days) are usually a pile of ones.

I continue to do it anyway.

[DawgBone]

Yes, but the music is better than it is in places where they allow grown-up amps. IMHO. YMMV. Etc etc.

What's the difference if I can't hear your work over the sound of someone petting their cat or gnawing on a sirloin?