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Hello, my name is Jason. I am new here but I have been playing and collecting guitars for most of my life. I have always admired the Gibson L5 and thought to myself, maybe some day ... Well that day is near and I have begun to start searching.
I have been absolutely enamored with this blonde 1941 Gibson L5 equipped with a DeArmond Rhythm Chief played by Brian Setzer in the video below ever since I first saw it. I just love how the finish has yellowed over time and the red detail on the pickup.
An instrument like this is probably out of my reach. But I always thought, if I could get a modern L5-CES WES 2nd hand then that would more than suite my needs. I love Wes's music and I don't really have a need for a bridge pickup on this guitar. However, the more I search, the more I find myself deviating from or perhaps, expanding my search criteria. What started out as a search for a modern used (sub $10,000) reissue quickly led to looking at various other makes and models. Both vintage and modern L5s, Super 400s, LeGrands, Citations, Jim Triggs etc. Today I stumbled upon Nelson Palen guitars which appear to be very nice. If money were no object I would just buy a vintage D'Angelico and be done with it
What I need are recommendations and opinions from those of you with real world experience owning and playing both vintage and modern high end archtop guitars. Snobs, cork sniffers and elitists, your opinions are welcome! Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.
Some basic criteria so far:
- I'm really after a collectible heirloom level instrument. Eastman and Heritage are fantastic but, they're just not really what I am looking for right now.
- Made in the USA or North America, Europe etc.
- Readily Available in the USA. I don't really want to commission a build and wait a year or two.
- 17"-18" body, preferably with a Venetian cutaway.
- I want to see some beautiful wood. I love a natural finish but I'm open to other colors. Just not solid colors.
- No Florentine cutaways.
- No studios
- No dot inlays
- Initially I was hoping to keep my budget under $10,000. But I can see this may expand substantially, especially for the right vintage L5.
- No significant damage (major top cracks, headstock repairs etc.)
- A single floating pickup is probably ideal. But I'm open to top mounted humbuckers, Alnico Vs, Charlie Christian etc. Even a 2 pickup is not out of the question.
A few random questions:
- For those of you that have had the opportunity to own or play both. What are your thoughts on modern vs vintage (1940s-1960s) L5s?
- Although I will never gig with it. This guitar will be used. Should I be concerned about playing a 70+ year old hollow body guitar on a regular basis?
- What are some other manufacturers that I should consider in my search.
- The 100 year anniversary of the L5 is right around the corner. Maybe I should hold out?
If you've made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read my post and thanks in advance for any assistance. Cheers!
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01-06-2023 04:31 AM
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I had a very nice vintage 1930 L5, and I think it was a GREAT sounding guitar.
I sold it to buy a modern archtop, which it was more suitable for me.
With your budget, a little bit of luck and a good negotiation I think you'll be able to pick "the right one".
Currently on Reverb (but there are many other shops around) there's only one L5 worth noticing, from 1957, but I think it's overpriced at 15K.
My suggestion is to spend some time look around with no rush, and something will pop out.
Oh, I also had vintage L7 later on (sold that one too), picked up out of 10 others, that sounded even better than my vintage L5... and L7 are cheaper!
You may take that in consideration. Also L12 can be extremely good... but if you have your eyes on a L5, just go for that, otherwise you'll never be very happy
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This is a no brainer. You go over to the for sale section and buy vinney’s Super 400ces. Granted it has 2 pickups but given Vinny can be trusted by all on forum, and this is a Hutch signed Super 400; Well if you cannot sound like Wes on this it is not the guitars fault.
Get on a plane and pick it up today nothing will touch it for price.
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Hi Gold Finger -- welcome to the Forum!
If you read through the hundreds of similar posts here that say, "My dream guitar is ___, but what else is out there?" they rarely, if ever, move past that dream guitar idea(l). If you like the Gibson and can afford the Gibson, buy the Gibson. There are many other incredible builders out there ... but you want the Gibson, so get one! [I like Deacon's suggestion, too!]
Enjoy!
Marc
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I think your on the right path. I would stick with Gibson. They have a trademark sound and occupy the largest market.Their ability to source beautiful wood are second to none.You have the best chance of protecting your investment. Play it to death regardless of age no worries!
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I think that you are on the right track with Gibson. The L5 (either the CES or the Wes Mo) are wonderful guitars and with patience, negotiation skills - you should be able to find one within or a bit more than your budget. BUT TAKE YOUR TIME. Buying a vintage guitar requires knowledge and you should be concerned about potential issues. If you would consider a floating pickup, I would also strongly suggest a Gibson Johnny Smith - made from 1961 through the early 1990s. Wonderful acoustic qualities, shorter scale and slightly smaller than the L5 (although still 17 inch). A third option for a floater might be an L7 - identical in size to the L5 but without the frills. Many of the vintage ones have had floaters added - they are considerably less expensive than the L5s.
One of the things that I consider in buying a vintage guitar is the potential resale value. There is no way to predict that but I suspect that Gibsons will continue to hold their value going forward. Good luck with your search and let us know when you find the "right one."
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A thought: you realised this means you might be searching for a year or two, without any guarantee that you'll find your grail in that time span ... or even that your budget will still be (worth) the same by then?
Originally Posted by Gold Finger
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Originally Posted by deacon Mark
OP said he isn't interested in anything with headstock repair....
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My first piece of advice is that if this is going to be an heirloom, buy a Gibson and preferably a vintage one. It will have the most stability in expected value.
I have vintage and modern Gibsons. I prefer everything about the vintage ones but the modern ones are still high quality.
18” guitars will be harder to sell than 17”.
If I were in your shoes and had the budget I wouldn’t compromise on anything. You can get a vintage cutaway L5 and a floating pickup for a little over your $10k budget. My recommendation is to look for L5C models from 1946 to 1959. 1960s saw some changes in finish colors, neck dimensions, and construction that make them less desirable. I personally like thicker necks, so I haven’t ventured into 60s Gibsons.
If what you are after is the sound of the one Brian Setzer is playing, you should NOT get a guitar with a built in pickup. They sound nothing alike.
You also should consider a guitar without a cutaway. This would greatly expand your options. An L5 noncutaway from 1938 to the 50s would get the setzer sound perfectly and fit within your budget.
You will likely need to buy a pickup separately and have a qualified luthier. A vintage dearmond rhythm chief is $1000+. I don’t understand the fascination: I owned one and much prefer the fhc which can be had for roughly $300.
Your tastes are really close to mine. Congrats on having the budget to pursue. If I can summarize my recommendation: I’d you’re after that Setzer video sound, ONLY an acoustic Gibson archtop will get it. It’s fun to research but you have no reason to compromise.
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The Gibson archtops from the 40's, 50's and 60's were all built to withstand the normal stress of heavy strings and constant playing so you won't have to worry about that. SOME might have needed a neck re-set at one time or are now in need of such a very normal procedure but again, that is not a real issue when done correctly. Are there many vintage Martins (etc.) out there from the golden era WITHOUT a neck re-set still in playable condition ? My guess is it's not a whole lot ....
Nice/best woods, top-notch build quality, exceptional tone + playability ... there are more builders active today than EVER who would gladly serve you one of their wares. Whether it's Benedetto, Ribbecke, Trenier, Buscarino, Marchione, Mirabella, Comins, Borys, Grimes, .... I surely forget many but they all build beautiful heirloom quality instruments in the realm between 10 and 20 grand.
Have a look here :
1956 Gibson Super 400 C Sunburst Finish McCarty Guard w/OHSC | Reverb
Ribbecke Monterey Arctop 2013 Vintage Sunburst Lacquer | Reverb
Comins Custom 17” Archtop - 2017 Violin Burst with custom | Reverb
And I'm equally sure that there are lots more out there for you to choose from. In any case you should sample as many as you can so you can be sure that you actually LIKE the guitar you're getting and not just relying on the varied opinions of so many different forum members....
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Two pieces of advice from my limited experience. These are just my thoughts among the many much more informed people around here. Clearly, I am talking about my own experience with my purchase of that kind of instrument, but I really would hope for it to happen to everyone here because it really is special when it does happen.
1. Try before you buy if at all possible. For what the OP is talking about, the guitar should just blow you away the first time you pick it up. To me, that is the sole criteria for that special instrument rather than that it is vintage or whatever. If the guitar doesn't just shake your world when you pick it up, the rest doesn't matter.
2. For me (just speaking for myself here), having a bunch of special guitars as a collection just crowds the experience. Having that one that does it every time is the experience I wanted and eventually found.
I could say that you should get a guitar like the one that does it for me, but we are different people and just because a given guitar does it for one person, does not mean at all that it will do it for another. Having tried to do it that way, always seemed a bit of a let down for me. Joe Pass played an ES-175 at times, so I should get that. Nope, didn't do it for me, but I am sure it would for somebody else.
As for resale value, if you find the guitar that really does it for you, hopefully you would never want to sell it. I suppose the market can be up and down like it can be for most anything else, and it seems to me that it is a bit of a crap shoot as to whether you would get your money out of a really expensive guitar when it is time to sell, and hopefully that time never comes anyway.
Tony
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This was repaired and completely done by Marc Campellone a premier guitar builder of historical recommendation. I would say it actually is better than when it was made and completely a non issue. If someone passes on this guitar because of this they clearly have no real understanding of what building a guitar is all about. Originally Posted by street
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I'd agree for the most part, but some people can't get around a headstock repair no matter who did the work. That's prob a big reason that 400 is still for sale. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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This is all good advice; if you are thinking about that Setzer sound and a Wes sound, those are two different guitars, one is an acoustic floater and one is a set in humbucker. That is the first choice you need to make. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
If the former, a nice acoustic L5 from the '50's can be found in your price range.
If the latter, the golden era L5CES is probably above that if in good shape, especially one with PAF's like Wes used. Luckily the later L5's are still very nice.
I ended up with one if each type for both sounds, a common solution around here! Good luck.
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Get a Gibson L-5 or Super 400. Nothing else will scratch your itch and you might as well bite the bullet and be done with it, otherwise you will one day be trading up to arrive at the same place.
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Do not spoil your ownership experience by thinking about your guitar's resale price or investment potential. We do not know how valuable anything will become. Old saxophones fetch more than they deserve, while pianos are given away. Collectibles have been shown to perform no better than equities. Buy something you like and want to play.
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I'm going to disagree w my friend the deacon that someone passing on a well done headstock repair doesn't know what building is all about. How is a repaired headstock better than unrepaired? I agree Mr C did a wonderful job and it may be structuraly stronger but if you're buying a guitar as an investment it's certainly not better. That said, that particular Super is priced right for a player's guitar. Headstock repairs almost always make me pass, but my main gigging guitar for the last 35 yrs is a '69 L5 w that repair, though much less severe. I didn't buy it for potential resale as I knew I'd never sell it, that particular guitar is strictly a tool for me and has paid for itself many times over. If you're buying a guitar as an investment, unless it's dirt cheap a headstock repair isn't a good thing imo.
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Decide what you want, and wait. In November 2022, I was able to buy a ‘58 Super 400N for well below your budget. Patience is key.
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Sorry for another mile long post
Thanks to everyone for all of the great responses. I wanted to address a few of you directly below. But I have a couple additional comments/questions to add.
While I know my way around the solid/semi hollow electric and flat top acoustic world rather well. I don't really have any real world hands on experience with solid carved archtop guitars. All I really have to go on is my past experiences with other instruments along with online research from reading forums and watching videos. Which is what brought me here to enlist the help of this community. I would like to present a couple examples of instruments that I have been considering and get your feedback and guidance on how to evaluate their value.
I would feel totally comfortable negotiating a deal on a Les Paul or a Telecaster. But on something like a modern L5 CES WES I don't have much to go on. I know from speaking to the local Gibson rep back in 2021 that a current L5 CES WES had a MAP price of $10,000 for sunburst and I believe $12,000 for natural if my memory serves me. I also know that most Gibson dealers are willing to discount high end Gibsons significantly (10-20%) for cash paying customers. But I'm also aware that Gibson has not exactly been cranking out archtops lately. I don't know if they make 100 L5s a year or 10? Does a dealer turn around and sell a $12,000 L5 right away for full price? Or is it something that hangs around a long time and they're happy to discount it to move it? This is all information that I would take into account when trying to purchase a used solid body, along with recent completed sold listings and all the other usual stuff.
A few examples of where I'm going with this
I live in Michigan about an hour away from Elderly Instruments. They have a very nice 2005 L5 CES WES with a sunburst finish in excellent condition on consignment for $8,500. Last weekend I drove up there to see it. Overall I agree with their assessment of EX condition. The photos make the finish look worse than it actually is. Someone installed a raw nickel covered Seymour Duncan Antiquity pickup which is certainly a strange decision. However the original pickup is in the case along with the pick guard. So applying my formula above. A brand new guitar just like this had a MAP price of $10k and if you were able to negotiate a 10-20% discount. Then you're right in that ballpark of $8000 - $9000 for a brand new one. If this were a Les Paul I would say this seller is way too high. But given that I don't know the market for these as well, and Gibson is currently not taking new orders for any archtops right now. Maybe this is a fair price? Ultimately I don't think this is the right guitar for me. It didn't blow me out of the water when I played it, the figuring on the wood used on the rims isn't the best. I do believe that this example is probably significantly over priced? But please correct me if I am out of line here.
Gibson Wes Montgomery L5 Custom (2005)
When it comes to vintage, I just don't even know where to begin when it comes to evaluating the value. I found an absolutely awesome looking 1955 L5 CES in natural with the staple magnet P90 or Alnico V pickups (I'm not sure which is correct). I absolutely love this guitar and I may make a trip down to Nashville to play it. Rumble Seat Music is hyping it up as part of the Joe Bonamassa collection with a price tag of $21,500. For me, the JB ties to this guitar add absolutely zero value but to each his own. So I have to wonder, do you guys think this is a fair price? Or are they tagging on a serious premium because of the JB connection? I wouldn't even know where to begin with a negotiation on this one. Between what is fair and what is insulting to the seller etc.
1955 Gibson L-5 CES "Blonde" | Rumble Seat Music
So if I am 100% honest, I think that I am really drawn to the aesthetics of the guitar that Brian is playing in the video but I really like that Wes Montgomery sound. Like someone else already mentioned, it's probably worth owning one of each and that may just happen in the end. I suppose that I should be keeping an eye out for the right opportunity on both and pursue whichever I come across first. But your comments about your preference for the vintage kind of align with what I thought people might say and I think that this is solid advice. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Tony, you are spot on with the try before you buy. I have never been one to buy a guitar sight unseen. Especially at this level, I believe that it is very important that I bond with it before I commit. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
I certainly agree with your second point. My musical tastes are all over the map and I have tried to collect very nice examples of various styles. A Gibson 57 Gold Top Les Paul Reissue, Suhr Classic S Antique (strat), Fender American Vintage Reissue Telecaster and a hand made Polish guitar from a builder called Skervesen for when I feel compelled to play heavy stuff. Next on the list will be the archtop and I absolutely intend for it to be the crown jewel of my collection.
When it comes to resale, I certainly do not have a crystal ball. But I have gone through a huge amount of gear over the years and learned a lot of expensive lessons along the way. While I don't ever intend to sell this guitar, I cannot say what the future will hold. Tastes change, new opportunities present themselves, and sometimes life just gets in the way. I would hate to be one of those guys that bought a Firebird X
so investment and potential resale is always on my mind as a buyer.
That sounds like an outstanding combination. I would love to see photos if you're inclined to share. You make a solid point and I just may wind up with one of each myself ... some day ... Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Also, what are your thoughts about the vintage 1955 L5 that I found at Rumble Seat? (mentioned above)
Thank you for addressing this in an elegant manner. I 100% agree with every single one of your points. When I finished my original post last night, I started browsing the for sale section and I discovered this very Super 400 in question. It's an absolutely beautiful guitar for a fantastic price and the community obvsiously speaks very highly of the seller and the luthier that did the repair work. Originally Posted by wintermoon
If I was a real musician and wanted a gigging instrument I would already be on a plane to buy it. However I am just a bedroom noodler and I have never stood on a stage in my life LOL. I understand that the repaired joint is stronger than it ever was. I know that it's superficial and I know that I'm probably letting an awesome opportunity pass me by. But I've just never been interested in a guitar with a broken headstock.
I have owned a few acoustics and a Gretsch 6120 that have had neck resets. But I view this more like expected maintenance rather than repaired damage due to an accident.
That is absolutely stunning. I love everything about it. Would you please share some photos of the sides and back? Originally Posted by customxke
Decide what you want, and wait. In November 2022, I was able to buy a ‘58 Super 400N for well below your budget. Patience is key.
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Touche' Originally Posted by RJVB
You make a solid point, but I don't know if I could handle the wait lol. Hopefully I find something faster.
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Originally Posted by Gold Finger
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I believe that the idea of wanting to buy a "collectable" level super guitar while not really knowing exactly what you want out of a guitar and even more importantly without having a solid knowledge and history with the merits, issues, sound characteristics, neck carves and ability to judge each contender for oneself, is a recipe for problems, disappointment and financial losses. If you've no hands on experience with this particular group/level/price point, you won't really know what you're shelling out 10 grand for. There are plenty of beautiful guitars that are dogs, twisted and humped neck, collapsed tops, worn out slipping tuners, loose braces, shifted neck angles and more. In short, you don't need to spend $10,000 to get a great playing, and you can end up with a dog and there are much better investment vehicles if you want to grow a portfolio.
I hope you read this as the friendly "buyer beware" it was offered as.
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Remember collectable guitar and investments are not the same thing. Guitars are a poor investment if anyone thinks they want to buy a guitar for this reason. You buy a collectable guitar because you like them and want one. If some how you get your money back or your heirs get something, then that is just a plus. Buy and L5 or a Super 400 and then you will have the basis covered. They are not rare but patience is the key. One will come up for sure.
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Hi Jason. Just wanted to make sure you know you're getting some really solid advice from an amazing group of guys who've owned a few hundred high value vintage and newer Gibson archtops amongst them. (and d'Angelicos, and Epiphones and throw in a dozen or more luthier built instruments...) What a great forum! I'm sure we'll hear from some other such folks as well.
I'm just an ogler in this department, but hope to be in your shoes some day. I'm here to learn. Good luck in the hunt!
I'm looking forward to seeing what you land.
That Super really is something! Not to mention the boxes in the background...
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Good advice on the buyer beware. Best to find a qualified luthier with archtop experience to check it out first. If you can.
Finding problems is something any buyer should want before they hand over the money. I've bought a few vintage Gibson archtops, and Epi's too, some with known problems that were factored into the price after consultation with an expert, who then accomplished the work at a cost already agreed to before the deal. It's kind of like teamwork. An inspection is something that will pay dividends. That's what I think. Sometimes, a great looking guitar might sound awful because of a loose brace or something easily remedied, and you end up with a great guitar. It can happen. It's also good to know the history of the seller, if possible.
Good luck finding your guitar. It's a fun activity, sometimes frustrating, and can take patience.
Cheers,
S
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