Please Help Me Choose A High End or Vintage Solid Carved Archtop Guitar

[Stringswinger]

@ Gold Finger

I have played solid body guitars with everything from 8's to 12's and archtops with everything from 10's to 14's. I have never been able to get an optimal jazz tone with anything less than 11's on an archtop or 10's on a solid body.

I can go back and forth from 24.75 to 25.5 with no problem, though if you gave me a dose of truth serum, I would probably prefer the 24.75. I do not like the 26.25 scale of Gypsy guitars, but in that genre, I have found it to be a necessary evil.

While my preference is a 1 11/16 nut, a 1 5/8 nut is fine. 1 3/4 is doable, but I don't like it and anything smaller than 1 5/8 or bigger than 1 3/4 doesn't work for me.

I play jazz professionally and use all of the following types of guitars (depending on my mood/needs):

Solid Body
Laminate archtop
Carved archtop with built in pickups
Carved archtop with a floater
Gypsy guitar.

The three different type of archtops i use are all somewhat different and you may find in your journey that you will want (need?) one or more of each.

Welcome to archtop enablers.com

[bluejaybill]

Wow I just contacted Mark via his website and he responded to me within minutes. Pretty awesome! There appears to be a rather long line ahead of me but I have requested to have my name added.

I grew up playing 25.5" scale guitars and then later got into Gibson Les Pauls with 24.75" and a PRS or two at 25". I'm not really that sensitive to the difference in reach between the frets. For me it's more of a string tension thing and I adjust gauge accordingly to achieve what I like. Which for me is pretty light. I was down to 7s for a while but I've kind of landed at 9s on a Gibson and 8s on a Fender when using standard tuning. But with all that in mind, I am expecting an archtop to behave more like a flatop acoustic in the sense that you will benefit from heavier gauge strings to really get the top moving and sounding it's best. So it might make sense for me to go short on a custom build. I certainly have a lot of time to figure that out.

Nut width has never been something that I've focused too much on. Everything I have right now works out good for me. I will say this, I am a finger picker and a few years ago I got a Martin (I believe it was an OM-28) with a slotted peghead that had a rather wide nut. I thought I might enjoy it for finger style but I'm so used to the tighter string spacing of Les Pauls and Teles etc that I just never really adapted to it so it got sold. A shame because it was a really great guitar.

Glad you were able to reach Mark, he is a great guy to work with. It sounds like you already know that 1 3/4" is wider than you would like, and after that it's a matter of what scale length works best for you. I think longer scale lengths bring out a bit more tone and overtones, on a carved top you might want to check out L5 (25.5) and Johnnie Smith or PRS (25"), maybe see if you can play a PRS semi-hollow and see how you like it.

Other considerations are neck thickness (I like them pretty substantial) and floater or built-in pickup of course.

I think you will want to try art least .011's on an arch top, many folks go to .012 or bigger. BTW I don't know if you are looking to get into jazz with this guitar, it's an interesting adjustment going from rock style guitars to an arch top. It took me about a year to feel comfortable, and I have owned jazz guitars in the past. They are a bit of their own thing.

[Bluedawg]

The only bad years for Gibson archtops in my experience were the 60s archtops I encountered. Thin necks and some with laminated backs and side IIRC.

70s and 80s Norlin archtops were good.

After 1988 or so they have been mostly great.

Early 60s and before are the highly desired golden era and usually cost more. Add in PAF humbuckers and the price goes way up.


IMHO YMMV

My '93 Le Grand was also rather bright when I got it, but a wooden bridge and good set up fixed that. The pickup needed some adjusting and Rainbow guitars in Tucson got the bridge set up for a more mellow tone. Jim Triggs made the bridge for me.

Good Luck

[gitman]

The only bad years for Gibson archtops in my experience were the 60s archtops I encountered. Thin necks and some with laminated backs and side IIRC.

70s and 80s Norlin archtops were good.

After 1988 or so they have been mostly great.

Early 60s and before are the highly desired golden era and usually cost more. Add in PAF humbuckers and the price goes way up.


IMHO YMMV

My '93 Le Grand was also rather bright when I got it, but a wooden bridge and good set up fixed that. The pickup needed some adjusting and Rainbow guitars in Tucson got the bridge set up for a more mellow tone. Jim Triggs made the bridge for me.

Good Luck

Hmm, you must have encountered a few dogs then ... I've played several totally un-inspiring and some downright DEAD high-$$$ Gibson's coming from all eras, well before and after the 60's so I will not make any broad comments about this subject and I dare say very few people besides guys like Gruhn, Wexer, Buzzy from Larkstreet and Norm Harris and a couple of others in that league of pro dealers are knowledgeable enough to do so... but they won't because it would hurt their business. The only 60's Gibson I owned that turned out to be a dog was a '68 ES-175 , NOTHING and nobody I asked for help could bring that guitar to life, it wasn't even a one-trick-pony ....

[SOLR]

Wow I just contacted Mark via his website and he responded to me within minutes. Pretty awesome! There appears to be a rather long line ahead of me but I have requested to have my name added.

I grew up playing 25.5" scale guitars and then later got into Gibson Les Pauls with 24.75" and a PRS or two at 25". I'm not really that sensitive to the difference in reach between the frets. For me it's more of a string tension thing and I adjust gauge accordingly to achieve what I like. Which for me is pretty light. I was down to 7s for a while but I've kind of landed at 9s on a Gibson and 8s on a Fender when using standard tuning. But with all that in mind, I am expecting an : to behave more like a flatop acoustic in the sense that you will benefit from heavier gauge strings to really get the top moving and sounding it's best. So it might make sense for me to go short on a custom build. I certainly have a lot of time to figure that out.

Nut width has never been something that I've focused too much on. Everything I have right now works out good for me. I will say this, I am a finger picker and a few years ago I got a Martin (I believe it was an OM-28) with a slotted peghead that had a rather wide nut. I thought I might enjoy it for finger style but I'm so used to the tighter string spacing of Les Pauls and Teles etc that I just never really adapted to it so it got sold. A shame because it was a really great guitar.

Why wait : 17 in Campellone:
S

[Bluedawg]

Hmm, you must have encountered a few dogs then ... I've played several totally un-inspiring and some downright DEAD high-$$$ Gibson's coming from all eras, well before and after the 60's so I will not make any broad comments about this subject and I dare say very few people besides guys like Gruhn, Wexer, Buzzy from Larkstreet and Norm Harris and a couple of others in that league of pro dealers are knowledgeable enough to do so... but they won't because it would hurt their business. The only 60's Gibson I owned that turned out to be a dog was a '68 ES-175 , NOTHING and nobody I asked for help could bring that guitar to life, it wasn't even a one-trick-pony ....

I'm certainly no expert ... LOL ... just sharing my experience, limited as it is. Thus, the statement: IMHO YMMV

The thin necks are my main beef with 60s Gibsons... I can't remember the dates ... 63 or 64 to 69 or so. I'm sure I could find some I liked if I looked hard enough.

It's unusual for me not to like something with Gibson on the headstock so I was surprised that I didn't like those guitars. I'm not even picky about finish and other minor QC issues.

I have a friend with an early 60s Johnny Smith (1962?) that is rather special, but it has the standard nut and neck as I recall. So early 60s could be great, but they also tend to fall into the golden era vintage and expensive category.

In short, the only Gibson archtops I would buy sight unseen are post '88. All other eras I would want to have them in my paws before money changed hands.

Too much money and old age issues with pre 60s. Norlins have their own issues.


I have purchased a 2011 Super 400 and a 1995 Citation unseen and those worked out quite nicely.

[paulkogut]

Not sure if this would be of interest to the OP, but this seems worth a look. A refret/new nut from Ed Reynolds makes it halfway to a luthier-built guitar (No affiliation other than seeing it on forum, and knowing the quality of Ed Reynolds work...)

Ibanez 2460 Pre Lawsuit L-5 CES



PK

[RJVB]

Not to be iconoclast (although... O:-)) but that's an all-laminate guitar with set PUs and pots. Supposing 3000$ is an acceptable price for such an instrument I really don't see why you would spend a multiple of that on a build by a not-just-any luthier if the only time you'll be playing it unplugged is going to be when you don't want to disturb anyone. I'm not buying into the idea that a better laminate top will improve the electric output (if anything it'll do the opposite).

[Dexter.Sinister]

Attachment 98016

Such a stunning instrument. I hope you make much music with it.

[Gold Finger]

So this 2002 Gibson Citation is available to me locally. Signed by Hutch. I think that the color is Honey Burst? It came from a collector and is essentially unplayed. I have known the seller for my entire life and he’s a super good guy. $15k is the asking price. I think that’s more than reasonable. I don’t know that I love the color but it is growing on me. Certainly a stunning guitar. I’ll have to play it and see if I fall in love. What do you guys think? I have never even seen one of these in person before so I am pretty excited to try it out.

[deacon Mark]

It is a beautiful but a lot or money. Certainly I don't think you can go wrong no issues but at 15k$ many choices. I cannot fault the choice but more money that I want to spend on one. My friend down the street has a beautiful blond one and it sounds great. It does not sound necessarily any better than my Legrand, L5c, or Johnny Smith Heritage. I like those equally to his Citation, that said it is a super guitar no complaints and it your money.

[deacon Mark]

I would be carving an ebony saddle on that too if it was mine, in a heartbeat.

[gitman]

On the one hand this is truly a spectacular guitar with a lot of bling re the choice of wood, the trim etc, but re it's tone and feel I cannot comment. What I find irritating is the how high up the bridge is set - you might want to check the neck angle and level of the top plate at the bridge base. Good luck !

[Gold Finger]

On the one hand this is truly a spectacular guitar with a lot of bling re the choice of wood, the trim etc, but re it's tone and feel I cannot comment. What I find irritating is the how high up the bridge is set - you might want to check the neck angle and level of the top plate at the bridge base. Good luck !

I didn't even notice that. Would you say that the bridge is way too close to the fingerboard too? I was always taught that it should line up with the corners of the F holes. This one seems to have migrated significantly away from that position. The guitar has been in storage for a while, years. Although I do not know exactly how many years. Obviously it can be moved, but it would be a shame if the finish is all messed up under there.

[SOLR]

I didn't even notice that. Would you say that the bridge is way too close to the fingerboard too? I was always taught that it should line up with the corners of the F holes. This one seems to have migrated significantly away from that position. The guitar has been in storage for a while, years. Although I do not know exactly how many years. Obviously it can be moved, but it would be a shame if the finish is all messed up under there.

Compare with this one Gibson Citation 2008, Natural | Carter Vintage Guitars :

S

[gitman]

I didn't even notice that. Would you say that the bridge is way too close to the fingerboard too? I was always taught that it should line up with the corners of the F holes. This one seems to have migrated significantly away from that position. The guitar has been in storage for a while, years. Although I do not know exactly how many years. Obviously it can be moved, but it would be a shame if the finish is all messed up under there.

Achtung Baby ! I didd't mean the location of the bridge - it's the HEIGHT of the bridge above the soundboard that looks to be a bit on the high side. This could be indicative of a bowed neck and/or a sunken top plate. Not too un-common , especially when a guitar was stored away for a long time . OTOH maybe the owner just jacked up the bridge by mistake - in any case you should take a close look and make sure that there is not an issue that might cause you grief after a while.

[JazzIsGood]

You should go drive to the shop and play that '55 blonde L5. I don't think the price is really out of line (assuming they may come down a bit).

Condition looks really good, and I think it's got a lot of that flame wood you're looking for. They don't all have that. I have a '55 s400 with staple pickups, mine does not have flame like that. It's not something I was looking for, but I can see why someone would be looking for that. If a guitar has that much flame you probably will pay the price for that. As far as staple pickups, I love them. The tone is so interesting and complex.

Prices have gone up a lot over the past couple years. Not just inflation, but in general vintage guitars seem to have gone up. I wanted a 90s Les Paul Special in yellow, could not find one for under $1600 and I looked for a long time and searched high and low. That used to be a $900 guitar not that long ago!

50s Gibsons are the absolute TITS! There's nothing like them.

I like some of the later guitars too. +1 on the great craftsmanship of Norlin era L5s. For a player's guitar and for the price you can't beat a 70-85 L5. They play great are very well made. But they will not be collectible and have jaw dropping flame like a 50s or 60s guitar.

In collector markets like classic cars, guitars, etc..... people really do pay a high premium for the stuff that's in good shape and has those special rare features like that flame maple. That's not just any old L5, it looks like a special one because of the wood.