Please Help Me Choose A High End or Vintage Solid Carved Archtop Guitar

[Degranulator]

I know this is no help for finding the "right" guitar, but you never will anyway. Especially not as long as your criteria emphasizes "high end"$$. Seems like you wouldn't know a great sounding archtop if you tripped over it. And I seriously question the Gibson L5 fetish..seems narrow and uncreative. My suggestion is to take take all this disposable cash and buy about 10 Eastman's. Keep your favorite, and give the others to some deserving young players who you feel are dedicated and killing it. Invest in people and music. I think having done that for some players would be epic and that Eastman guitar (maybe a John Pisano?) would become a true heirloom with a meaningful story and legacy.

[vinnyv1k]

If you like wine L5 Wesmo’s here are more pics.

[gitman]

So there you have it : some VERY disparate opinions, experiences and well meant propositions from forum members who have been around fine archtop guitars for decades. Now it's your turn to go out and get acquainted HANDS ON with the subject of this thread , get onto amazon.com (or better yet, your local bookstore) and score some standard books on the subject, sit down and listen to A LOT of Wes, Burrell, Marty Grosz, Matt Munisteri, Jonathan Stout, Whit Smith, check out these videos :

MrLaap45 - YouTube

and these : Acoustic Standards - YouTube

It takes time to develop a feel and some sort of sound-"vision" but if the money is burning a hole into your pocket right now then just go for it.

[tbeltrans]

I am going to answer this question. In general Gibson got very good at quality control in about 1990 thru pretty much 2010. This has to do with archtops and after 2010 they made very few. Jim Hutchins was Gibson's best luthier and dedicated to especially archtop guitars. He died in believe in 2010. When he sighed the label in the guitar is pretty said that it passed his inspection and eye/ear for details being done correct. Just to elaborate, I personally believe this period of Gibson Guitars has been there best for overall QC. The early Gibson's of 40- 60 years before were done during an era when manufacturing was different for all things of almost any nature that was manufactured. The work ethic was great and in general things could be done wonderfully but not always. The prized Gibson's I like however are now only about 30 years old so they do not draw the same mindset of a Gibson that was made in 1933, 90 years ago. You cannot compare guitars 90 years old to any new guitar even if John D'angelico returned from the dead and built one new today. New guitars are new, not necessarily better or worse but being made of wood and played 90 years does things to a guitar.

So these particular guitars that have the signed label seem to hold a better view. It is not mean they are all better or the others are inferior, but it works out to a market mindset of what is desirable. On a personal note I own 3 signed Hutch Gibson guitars. A 2005 Super400ces, 2002 Legrand, and 2003 L5c. What I can say about these guitar comes from experience. I spend many hours and time in the shop of Bill Barker and Bill Hollenbeck both know builders of archtop guitars. I have been around the shop the day the guitars they made were set up and played for the first time. I know what is required to have a well setup guitar and top-notch QC oversight. Many complaints are lodged against Gibson and QC issues. Some hate and others love. Well in my case these three Gibson I bought were spot on set up to the highest quality I seen by any guitar maker or manufacture period! The necks, action, wood, finish, details, and yes sound hit all the marks.

Take that for whatever it is worth but Gibson generally is tough to beat. Do my Gibson's sound better than my 1949 D'angelico New Yorker? No, because like I mentioned it happens to be 60 years older. Also that this level it was the player wants and likes in a guitar, not necessarily better or worse. To my ears the bass response and the warm projection of the D'a cannot be matched. However, and purely playing level the neck of the L5c feels better in my hand than the D'a, but it is not a detriment at all. The 49 played through the original Dearmond 1100...........well let's just say.............nothing topping that sound.

So that is my take on GIbson's custom signed labels. Probably others know much more or even disagree.

Very interesting and informative post!

I can't read the signature on the label in my 1995 Gibson Citation. I guess the person who signed it is probably a doctor (they are notorious for illegible handwriting) who also builds guitars.

Tony

[skiboyny]

I know this is no help for finding the "right" guitar, but you never will anyway. Especially not as long as your criteria emphasizes "high end"$$. Seems like you wouldn't know a great sounding archtop if you tripped over it. And I seriously question the Gibson L5 fetish..seems narrow and uncreative. My suggestion is to take take all this disposable cash and buy about 10 Eastman's. Keep your favorite, and give the others to some deserving young players who you feel are dedicated and killing it. Invest in people and music. I think having done that for some players would be epic and that Eastman guitar (maybe a John Pisano?) would become a true heirloom with a meaningful story and legacy.

I can not agree with this point of view at all. Very negative! There is a whole community of collectors part time enjoyers that have the income and enjoy the ownership. Just because it doesn't fit your definition of "who should own a guitar" doesn't mean it isn't valid.

[Stringswinger]

. And I seriously question the Gibson L5 fetish..seems narrow and uncreative.

Here is a video of Andreas Oberg playing my Wine Red L-5 and be assured that there is nothing narrow and uncreative about my guitar.

[wintermoon]

Ime folks that say something like "I seriously question the Gibson L-5 fetish" are people that have never played one let alone owned one.

[Leopold]

You can find a good Epiphone Triumph Regent in the $3-5K range. It may need work, as all 60+ year old guitars do, but like the other members have suggested, factor that into your bid. Assume that it needs new frets unless they've already been replaced and that will set you back several hundred bucks probably more depending on where you're located. Cracks, binding, may all need attention. But it's an old guitar. Check out
https://www.elderly.com/products/epiphone-triumph-regent-archtop-acoustic-guitar-1951
Figure on a grand to get it right. I spoke to them about it. They are great. Low retail pricing, honest, competent, no BS, great repair shop, will do the work if requested. No affiliation just trying to help.

[Gold Finger]

Do any of you guys know whether or not Gibson used richlite fingerboards on archtop guitars between 2012-2019? I know that they did for the Les Paul Customs during this time frame.

[wintermoon]

Do any of you guys know whether or not Gibson used richlite fingerboards on archtop guitars between 2012-2019? I know that they did for the Les Paul Customs during this time frame.

On some.
btw, do you expect me to talk? No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!
(sorry, couldn't resist )

[Gold Finger]

On some

Are there any details on this? Specific models/date ranges etc? Or is just kind of random?

[D'Aquisto Fan]

I wasn't going to chime in on this thread, but clearly you've had or have some cool vintage guitars. You know the drill. Enjoy the process, the hunt. Take your time. Play as many different archtops as you can. Sadly, it's hard to get your hands on a bunch of cool archtops in one place. It's not like going to the Dallas or Arlington Guitar shows where there are table and after table full of Teles, Strats, Les Pauls, 3x5s, etc. FYI, an extremely rare and beautiful blonde 1958 L5CES with PAFs was recently on Reverb. The asking prices was 49K. It's gone. Who knows what it sold for, but PAF L5s and Super 400s from the 50s are extremely, extremely difficult to find. I know. I'm always keeping an eye out for them. I've had Alnico L5s from the 50s. Very cool guitars, especially if you play rockabilly, country, etc. But I found them a bit harsh, not as smooth as a PAF, so they're gone. If you're interested in D'Angelicos and D'Aquistos, Rudy's in Scarscadle has a sampling of both. Prices are high, but it's one destination where you can get your hands on a few examples of these iconic instruments. Norm may have some cool pieces stashed away in his warehouse on the other side of the coast. Of course, if you want a modern or recently built Gibson archtop, those are easily found. It's a different thing. Just like buying a real 52 Tele is an overall different experience than buying a 52 reissue, especially on the pocketbook. Again, take your time. Explore what you can online, but if at all possible, get out there and play the actual guitars. Guitar shopping is fun. Especially if you're fortunate to have the funds to purchase a special instrument. Find out what moves you, what resonates with you, then pull the trigger and enjoy!

[wintermoon]

Are there any details on this? Specific models/date ranges etc? Or is just kind of random?

Someone that pays more attention to modern Gibsons would know better than me, but it was discussed here @ some point on L-5s.

[Degranulator]

I am glad you love your L5s and I apologize if I offended any of you. True, I was being negative, and unhelpful. And unnecessarily harsh.There is nothing narrow and uncreative about Gibson instruments or L5s super 400s etc, I just feel maybe widening the focus would be good. But if the OP is set on an L5 or you consider yours the ultimate instrument that's great.

For what it is worth, no I have never had the pleasure of owning an L5, but I have played them and of course listened to them. Fine guitars, no doubt. Again, sorry all.

[tbeltrans]

When I read through threads such as this that discuss the intricacies of shopping for high end and/or vintage archtops, I come away with two distinct feelings about the subject:

1. I was EXTREMELY fortunate to have gotten my Citation locally and with it being in mint condition.

2. If #1 hand't happened and I had my heart set on such an instrument as is being discussed in these threads, I would feel compelled to hire one or more of the informed folks around here to help me find The One. It seems to me it would be all too easy to make an expensive mistake, and I just don't know enough (and probably never will) to make a truly informed purchase. I truly fell into the guitar I ended up getting. It was definitely not because I knew what I was doing. Fact is, I found out about it in another thread here.

Tony

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Ime folks that say something like "I seriously question the Gibson L-5 fetish" are people that have never played one let alone owned one.

Good ones are great. But the first year Norlin L-5CN that I bought new from Zapf’s in ‘70 or ‘71 was terrible - spliced binding, poor finish (irregular with one bare patch), weak sound, and odd neck that just felt wrong to me and everyone at Zapf’s who played it. I returned it after one gig and there was no disagreement from anyone with my assessment.

Why did I take it in the first place, you ask? I went to pick it up the minute I got the call that it had arrived. We opened the case to confirm that the right guitar was inside, and I rushed home with it because I had a gig that night. None of us dreamed it could be less than perfect because it was an L-5. I’d already gotten the Rhythm Chief and mounted it as soon as I got home.

So just being an L-5 isn’t enough. But I absolutely agree that most are great instruments. I traded about $150 worth of audio equipment for a ‘34 inherited by a classmate in college in ‘66 that sounded wonderful although it was heavily worn and needed a fair amount of work. I played it like I got it because I couldn’t afford to have Gibson fix it up. The estimate (through Wurlitzer in Boston) was $300. They offered to take my ‘60 175DN as payment, but I’d have ended up with a fabulous guitar that wouldn’t do the job on the weddings and blues / rock gigs I was playing to earn my tuition and expenses. As ratty as it was, I really loved it and played it daily until I got an offer that a college junior working his way through school couldn’t resist. But I definitely had “the L-5 fetish”. I had it bad, and that was good (at least until 1970…..)

I love them, but there are some bad ones out there and a newbie needs to be careful when buying one. It’s too easy to get so carried away with the idea of having an L-5 and the belief that any and every L-5 is great that common sense takes a back seat.

[street]

Do any of you guys know whether or not Gibson used richlite fingerboards on archtop guitars between 2012-2019? I know that they did for the Les Paul Customs during this time frame.

There's a very long (65 page) thread, on another forum, started by Mat Koehler from Gibson Product Development. He's basically answering any and all questions. Thread was started in Sept '21 and still going today.

Archtops and L5 in particular came up in '21 and he mentioned an archtop relaunch...."we are planning a re-launch in 2023 which includes a capacity increase and an all-new Historic Reissue L-5CES". Some posters commented Gibson hasn't made a vintage correct L5 since the 60s and he replied that it would be a priority to make the new one's vintage correct. Mat mentioned "What I've proposed is to start with a 1957 L-5CES Reissue"

If you're open to a new Gibby, may be worth waiting to see what they have in store with the new archtop relaunch. It sounds like they're going to try and get vintage correct on the entire archtop line.
Mat has said "we want to discontinue the range and start fresh" "My goal is to provide options, namely the ownership experience of owning one of the most valuable and collectible vintage instruments".

[Gold Finger]

There's a very long (65 page) thread, on another forum, started by Mat Koehler from Gibson Product Development. He's basically answering any and all questions. Thread was started in Sept '21 and still going today.

Archtops and L5 in particular came up in '21 and he mentioned an archtop relaunch...."we are planning a re-launch in 2023 which includes a capacity increase and an all-new Historic Reissue L-5CES". Some posters commented Gibson hasn't made a vintage correct L5 since the 60s and he replied that it would be a priority to make the new one's vintage correct. Mat mentioned "What I've proposed is to start with a 1957 L-5CES Reissue"

If you're open to a new Gibby, may be worth waiting to see what they have in store with the new archtop relaunch. It sounds like they're going to try and get vintage correct on the entire archtop line, including 175's.
Mat has said "we want to discontinue the range and start fresh"

Hey thanks for the info. I actually used to sell guitars at a Gibson dealer just for something to do at the start of the pandemic as I was laid off. I had a blast doing it but sadly I had to get back to work. I'm still in contact with the Gibson rep for this area and he told me that they had stopped taking orders in 2021 and are just now fulfilling the last of those. With the plan being, to do exactly what you just mentioned above. Basically retooling things and working to improve historical accuracy. He did not have as much detail about when they would re-launch but with the 100 year anniversary of the L5 technically being around the end of this year or beginning of next. I would expect to see Gibson capitalize on that with a limited commemorative run and if they're going to be more historically accurate that's awesome.

I have been doing a LOT of thinking over the last couple of days and I have to tell you. I am really close to just contacting Vinny about his Super 400. That would scratch the immediate itch. Then either order a Campellone Special Series or hold out for a 100 year anniversary L5. I could accomplish this for a lot less than that 1955 I found at Rumble Seat and wind up with 2 fantastic guitars. Hell I might even even be able to sneak a Triggs New Yorker into the mix.

This conversation has been very beneficial to me so far and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in with their input. While it's easy for me to get excited about obtaining a vintage guitar. I think it really makes a lot more sense to pursue modern stuff that is more affordable and readily available and hopefully not in need of as much TLC and maintenance. Maybe some day the right vintage instrument opportunity will present itself. At least that's how I'm starting to lean after a couple of days of really mulling things over.

[bluejaybill]

Hey thanks for the info. I actually used to sell guitars at a Gibson dealer just for something to do at the start of the pandemic as I was laid off. I had a blast doing it but sadly I had to get back to work. I'm still in contact with the Gibson rep for this area and he told me that they had stopped taking orders in 2021 and are just now fulfilling the last of those. With the plan being, to do exactly what you just mentioned above. Basically retooling things and working to improve historical accuracy. He did not have as much detail about when they would re-launch but with the 100 year anniversary of the L5 technically being around the end of this year or beginning of next. I would expect to see Gibson capitalize on that with a limited commemorative run and if they're going to be more historically accurate that's awesome.

I have been doing a LOT of thinking over the last couple of days and I have to tell you. I am really close to just contacting Vinny about his Super 400. That would scratch the immediate itch. Then either order a Campellone Special Series or hold out for a 100 year anniversary L5. I could accomplish this for a lot less than that 1955 I found at Rumble Seat and wind up with 2 fantastic guitars. Hell I might even even be able to sneak a Triggs New Yorker into the mix.

This conversation has been very beneficial to me so far and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in with their input. While it's easy for me to get excited about obtaining a vintage guitar. I think it really makes a lot more sense to pursue modern stuff that is more affordable and readily available and hopefully not in need of as much TLC and maintenance. Maybe some day the right vintage instrument opportunity will present itself. At least that's how I'm starting to lean after a couple of days of really mulling things over.

I think it would be an excellent plan to start with an arch top that you can get now, and that will help guide you to what you really want. Especially if you haven't owned one! I have sold two L5's because it wasn't what I wanted to play at the time- I needed different guitars for recording etc. (I know, stupid me!). If you get started with one you will be more able to figure out things like: scale length, nut width, floater versus set pickup, even brand. I bought my Borys for that reason- I wasn't really sure what I wanted to end up with, but I wanted to start playing and one came up second hand. It turns out that I love that guitar, so I got lucky.

Then my name came up with Mark Campellone (BTW you should get in his list pronto, he has a waiting list and there is no obligation to get on it), a bit sooner than I was planning on, so I had to scramble a bit to come up with the specs I liked. Luckily I had found out that I liked 1 3'4" nut and 25" scale with the Borys so I went with that. But it is hard to know that until you play one for awhile. Personally because of an issue with my left pinkie I find 25 1/2" scale difficult for certain chords, but I like the sound, a 25" scale is a good compromise for me.

Good luck with your search!

[vinnyv1k]

Do any of you guys know whether or not Gibson used richlite fingerboards on archtop guitars between 2012-2019? I know that they did for the Les Paul Customs during this time frame.

My 2014, 2016, 2022 L5’s have ebony boards.

[jazzkritter]

Gold Finger: the thought of an archtop, even Gibson, as a future investment has to be weighed against the fact that most of us archtop fans will be out of this time/space continuum in ten to fifteen years. There is no reason for the demand to remain the same as we who grew up worshiping Wes et al pass on.
Also, inevitably archtop buyers who are not archtop players find out they bought a cantankerous beast that requires dedication and diligence to make good music.
I for one do not advise basing an archtop purchase on future value.
jk

[vinnyv1k]

My advice is if you want a vintage L5 tone at a affordable price get a 17 inch Campellone. If you want a modern L5 tone get a 1990’s to present L5. A Campellone has a early 60’s L5 tonal quality IMO. More acoustic sounding then modern day L5’s. Campellone’s are a lighter build like early 60’s L5’s. Modern L5’s are much heavier builds especially after the 2000’s. I personally like the heavier modern builds and when I have Mark Campellone build me a guitar I request thicker tops.
The tone your ear likes should be the deciding factor, then the neck profile you like.
I can say this. My L5’s were all built between 2007-2022 and they are all great guitars.
I bought only one turd that came out of the Crimson shop. A 2016 LeGrand. It was gorgeous and had a great neck but it was carved thin as a potato chip and sounded brighter then a new penny. I sent that one back. Way too thin and bright sounding. Probably someone else loved it though. I like a dark thick tone. Your ear is what needs to be what gets pleased. Do you like modern or vintage tone ? They are very different.
Also it surely doesn’t need to be carved. IE: 175, Tal Farlow, Borys, Trenier, Holst.

[Gold Finger]

I think it would be an excellent plan to start with an arch top that you can get now, and that will help guide you to what you really want. Especially if you haven't owned one! I have sold two L5's because it wasn't what I wanted to play at the time- I needed different guitars for recording etc. (I know, stupid me!). If you get started with one you will be more able to figure out things like: scale length, nut width, floater versus set pickup, even brand. I bought my Borys for that reason- I wasn't really sure what I wanted to end up with, but I wanted to start playing and one came up second hand. It turns out that I love that guitar, so I got lucky.

Then my name came up with Mark Campellone (BTW you should get in his list pronto, he has a waiting list and there is no obligation to get on it), a bit sooner than I was planning on, so I had to scramble a bit to come up with the specs I liked. Luckily I had found out that I liked 1 3'4" nut and 25" scale with the Borys so I went with that. But it is hard to know that until you play one for awhile. Personally because of an issue with my left pinkie I find 25 1/2" scale difficult for certain chords, but I like the sound, a 25" scale is a good compromise for me.

Good luck with your search!

Wow I just contacted Mark via his website and he responded to me within minutes. Pretty awesome! There appears to be a rather long line ahead of me but I have requested to have my name added.

I grew up playing 25.5" scale guitars and then later got into Gibson Les Pauls with 24.75" and a PRS or two at 25". I'm not really that sensitive to the difference in reach between the frets. For me it's more of a string tension thing and I adjust gauge accordingly to achieve what I like. Which for me is pretty light. I was down to 7s for a while but I've kind of landed at 9s on a Gibson and 8s on a Fender when using standard tuning. But with all that in mind, I am expecting an archtop to behave more like a flatop acoustic in the sense that you will benefit from heavier gauge strings to really get the top moving and sounding it's best. So it might make sense for me to go short on a custom build. I certainly have a lot of time to figure that out.

Nut width has never been something that I've focused too much on. Everything I have right now works out good for me. I will say this, I am a finger picker and a few years ago I got a Martin (I believe it was an OM-28) with a slotted peghead that had a rather wide nut. I thought I might enjoy it for finger style but I'm so used to the tighter string spacing of Les Pauls and Teles etc that I just never really adapted to it so it got sold. A shame because it was a really great guitar.

[RJVB]

Some posters commented Gibson hasn't made a vintage correct L5 since the 60s and he replied that it would be a priority to make the new one's vintage correct.

Every L5 made by Gibson is a historically correct representation of its millesime, no? Imagine the conundrum Ford would be in if they had been making Model T's until a few years back and were now planning to release a historically correct reissue ...
With the centennial coming up I see only 1 correct answer to this "problem" for Gibson: a reissue of the Lloyd Loar L5, (optionally) *with* the Virzi. Apparently they're not planning that, and one could wonder if that's because there are too many great luthiers building that model L5 ...

[Gold Finger]

Every L5 made by Gibson is a historically correct representation of its millesime, no? Imagine the conundrum Ford would be in if they had been making Model T's until a few years back and were now planning to release a historically correct reissue ...
With the centennial coming up I see only 1 correct answer to this "problem" for Gibson: a reissue of the Lloyd Loar L5, (optionally) *with* the Virzi. Apparently they're not planning that, and one could wonder if that's because there are too many great luthiers building that model L5 ...

A solid point. I may be new to archtops, but I'm rather well acquainted with Gibson. I would expect that they will build what they believe they can make the most money from and based on what I'm learning here. It sounds like McCarty era PAF loaded guitars are in the highest demand?