What’s the latest on midi guitars?

[henryrobinett]

Being a guitarist I’m always a bit left out of the midi studio circus. I’ve tried Roland GK-2 with the G-10 is it? It was always a struggle. I still have them someplace. I was good the GI-10 still works in stand alone mode.

But has the technology improved these last 20 years? I’m not so interested in playing it like a guitar. Not interested in bending strings and doing guitaristic things like hammer-ons and pull offs. I just want to be able to accurately input synth parts, VIs and strings. I saw something called Jamstick, is it? Years ago people loved the Photon guitar. I think it just had a fret sensor or something which worked great apparently.


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[rhl-ferndale]

Nothing more reliable than a Godin Multiac for this sort of thing, especially if you're happy with nylon strings and a classical fretboard. They've been road and studio tested for years. I used mine for string pads and such (with a Roland GR55 through a Henriksen) in accompanying my violist wife on Xmas and Celtic stuff this time of year.

I've used a GK standalone pickup on a Strat, too--it tucks nicely between the bridge pickup and the bridge, held down with the sort of moldable sticky stuff that potters use in galleries to keep their work from crashing to the floor. And it's well-proportioned to attach to the endpin. Never a problem with tracking, chording, etc.

PS--I'm a long way from you, but my GK pickup and GR 55 are on consignment at B String Music here in Winston Salem. If you talk to Michael or Rocky there, tell them to call me for my best deal (ho ho ho) for you, since your work brings joy and zest whenever you post it.

[st.bede]

I do not think that things have changed that much really at all from early 2000s. To my knowledge, the tracking is about the same. The size has come down some. The trick is to get your playing really clean and focused. Then you have to really dial in the sounds you want to work with, in a musical way. I always felt like I was not getting that much from all the effort. Holdsworth and Metheny I think did it the best way. However, I can dig the need for x at a paying gig. It is on my list to eventually create a very personal sound, but it is not that high on my list.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I bought the first Roland rack mount synth unit (XV 2020) when it first came out years ago (with a GK-1 pickup at the time) and was the horn section for blues bands. Then when the GR20 came out a few years later, they'd improved the patches so much that I abandoned the 2020 and have been using the GR20 ever since. A GK-2 came with it, but I don't see any difference between the original and second gen pickups except for the control layout. What's improved most over the years is the sound quality of the patches. But the truly major advance in guitar synths is the availability of sensor bridge saddles for all kinds of guitars, which eliminates the delay

There is definitely a delay with the Roland pickup, and it's because of the physical distance between the pickup and the bridge saddle. The closer you get the pickup to the actual point of string contact, the less of a problem delay will be. But using a Roland pickup, it's enough to affect how tightly you hit the beat - and this affects how tight the band sounds when you're trying to lock yourself in as 3 horns with a rhythm section that's really in the groove. So I had to learn to anticipate the beat just enough to hit it squarely. This is not a problem with pickup sensors in the saddles, which is what's in the Godins. There are now a few alternatives for making a sensor bridge for almost any guitar, with the most comprehensive available as the Ghost system from GraphTech. They even have a 7 string kit, which was not available when I was using the synth a lot. I had to position the pickup strip under the top 6, which worked fine. But one of these days, I'm going to put a full tilt boogie Ghost pickup system in my Tele 7.

The new Roland synth has many great sounds in it and is a significant improvement over the GR20. The 20 has some very realistic patches. Vibes are amazingly realistic. The Harmon muted trumpet isn't Miles but it's not that far behind. The B3 / Leslie is very, very convincing through serious electronics and speakers and absolutely startling how good it is when I play it through our Leslie 3300! A few of the sax patches are fantastic, the trombone is pretty fine through a major league amp, and some of the keys (electric and acoustic) are pretty fine. It also makes some great old school analog synth sounds.

With the sustain pedal set properly, you can hold a chord on the B3 or sax section while soloing on your guitar. I still use it on a few gigs a year, mostly when hired to play keys. Here's an old demo I made when I first got the GR20. Every instrument in the band is me on the synth-equipped LP. You can hear the alto and tenor on the left, 'bones on the right, bari in the middle, B3 somewhere in between, plus bass, percussion, and guitar. I LOVE this thing!! And fortunately, so have the leaders for whom I've used it.

[henryrobinett]

Thanks guys. I should probably emphasize I’m interested in a midi guitar. I’m not interested in patches for playing live. All that sounds great though. But what I want is to be able to Spitfire Strings or PianoTeq or Kontakt into my DAW.


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[kris]

Midi guitars are not as accurate as keyboards.
There are always some inaccuracies when used with a DAW.I don't know the perfect midi guitar.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Thanks guys. I should probably emphasize I’m interested in a midi guitar. I’m not interested in patches for playing live. All that sounds great though. But what I want is to be able to Spitfire Strings or PianoTeq or Kontakt into my DAW.

That big band clip was recorded directly into my DAW. There’s no difference between using the Roland synth module and plugins. The only problem driving plugins with MIDI out from a guitar is the need to connect it to your computer, since neither the Roland connector nor a 5 pin DIN can be used directly.

You need a MIDI guitar with onboard converter to a USB out or a synth module that has a direct MIDI-via-USB output. The delay issue from pickup locations is the same no matter what you’re driving with the signal.

[henryrobinett]

No. There’s MASSIVE difference between driving the synth designed by the midi pickup designer and driving midi synths. Massive. That’s why the Roland boxes work so well with their system but absolute crap midi.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

No. There’s MASSIVE difference between driving the synth designed by the midi pickup designer and driving midi synths. Massive. That’s why the Roland boxes work so well with their system but absolute crap midi.

With all due respect, I think you’re not understanding what I’m saying. You can’t use the 13 pin output cable from a Roland pickup to drive most external synth modules (including those in keyboards) directly. You need a Roland-to-MIDI converter, which is built into the GR synths but was external to the XV2020. I’ve driven my keyboards with the 5 pin MIDI output from my GR20 with no problem at all, and my Kurzweil drives the Roland synths very well.

The GI20 was a half rack module that let me drive 5 pin MIDI devices with the GK pickup, and it also worked very well. Once you have a standard MIDI output, you can drive any MIDI synth module because there’s a standard platform shared by all. Yes, you can also program your channels etc any way you wish, but every MIDI device conforms to the standard.

The problem with driving DAWs using modern MIDI devices is that it’s all done by USB interface now instead of the 5 pin DIN connectors with which it started. So in addition to a Roland-to-MIDI converter, you need a MIDI-to-USB interface to drive VST plugins in a DAW. There was no USB out on the XV or early GR Roland synths. There may be one on the new series, but buying an $800 synth just to have a USB MIDI out makes no sense.

There are $20 MIDI-to-USB adapter cables, but I’ve never used them and don’t know how well they work. I don’t know if there’s a current Roland-to-USB converter. But if there is, I’ll buy one to drive my plug-ins directly in the DAW.

[EDIT] I forgot about the Boss GP10, which is a guitar "synthesizer" (actually more of a processor) with limited sound options compared to the Roland products. It has a Roland 13 pin input and a USB MIDI output so you can drive MIDI plugins in a DAW. I suspect they're available used for $300 or less, and I don't know of a cheaper solution to getting MIDI USB from a Roland pickup.

[John A.]

The problem with driving DAWs using modern MIDI devices is that it’s all done by USB interface now instead of the 5 pin DIN connectors with which it started. So in addition to a Roland-to-MIDI converter, you need a MIDI-to-USB interface to drive VST plugins in a DAW. There was no USB out on the XV or early GR Roland synths. There may be one on the new series, but buying an $800 synth just to have a USB MIDI out makes no sense.

Every audio interface box I’ve used has also had midi in and out. If the OP has an interface already he shouldn’t need another box to convert midi to USB.

[Degranulator]

Ztar has some interesting but spendy controllers. That's what I would use if I could afford one, a button neck design with string like triggers. No latency. What I use instead for chordal things is a cheap Rockband 3 game controller by MadCatz that uses a similar design. I have three in case one breaks, and found them new on ebay for $30-40. They work quite well and offer a neck tap mode that is indispensable if you want to play one hand on the neck and the right hand tweaking a synthesizer. I use it frequently with an old Yamaha QY70 pocket workstation for a very compact little midi rig to bring along to gigs. For monophonic use with my main real guitar I have used a Sonuus G2M universal midi converter that converts and audio to midi pitch signals and can capture quite nuanced playing. Downside is adjusting to latency, but it is incredibly fast considering what it does. I don't know what's the latest but this stuff works for me. I suggest avoiding anything that converts sound to midi (like the Sonuus) if you want timing accuracy, stay with a keyboard organized like a fretboard, unless you want to do guitary things.

[st.bede]

Last time I set up my midi guitar about three years ago, I was not happy with vsts hosted in daws. If I remember right the latency was bothering me. Why that would be different then a midi keys driving a vst I am not sure of.

I personally like a dedicated multitimbral synth for midi guitar stuff. Then again I am trying to create a personal voice/sound not multitracking different instruments.

For writing parts, I just use my keys, all be it, slow and sloppy. (That is the benefit of midi. My synths without midi make me work, but they sound so good).

I was once told, by a number of sources, that a “serious musician must be able to play some piano”. I even watched a debate about if, Miles could play piano or not. If I remember right it was on TV with Kenney Garret and x. (That was during Miles electric soft-ish jazz time. He would wonder over to a synth and hit some notes, it seemed almost random).

All I know is that until I played piano, theory was tricky. Also having some piano skills, makes compositional and midi stuff easier.

[henryrobinett]

With all due respect, I think you’re not understanding what I’m saying. You can’t use the 13 pin output cable from a Roland pickup to drive most external synth modules (including those in keyboards) directly. You need a Roland-to-MIDI converter, which is built into the GR synths but was external to the XV2020. I’ve driven my keyboards with the 5 pin MIDI output from my GR20 with no problem at all, and my Kurzweil drives the Roland synths very well.

The GI20 was a half rack module that let me drive 5 pin MIDI devices with the GK pickup, and it also worked very well. Once you have a standard MIDI output, you can drive any MIDI synth module because there’s a standard platform shared by all. Yes, you can also program your channels etc any way you wish, but every MIDI device conforms to the standard.

The problem with driving DAWs using modern MIDI devices is that it’s all done by USB interface now instead of the 5 pin DIN connectors with which it started. So in addition to a Roland-to-MIDI converter, you need a MIDI-to-USB interface to drive VST plugins in a DAW. There was no USB out on the XV or early GR Roland synths. There may be one on the new series, but buying an $800 synth just to have a USB MIDI out makes no sense.

There are $20 MIDI-to-USB adapter cables, but I’ve never used them and don’t know how well they work. I don’t know if there’s a current Roland-to-USB converter. But if there is, I’ll buy one to drive my plug-ins directly in the DAW.

[EDIT] I forgot about the Boss GP10, which is a guitar "synthesizer" (actually more of a processor) with limited sound options compared to the Roland products. It has a Roland 13 pin input and a USB MIDI output so you can drive MIDI plugins in a DAW. I suspect they're available used for $300 or less, and I don't know of a cheaper solution to getting MIDI USB from a Roland pickup.

Ok. Well I understand. I don’t have that issue. Midi to usb is not a problem. The problem is converting the latency and data triggering and trying to decipher what the guitarist means to play, fretboard, slides, maybe bends, also triggering out of range notes. When the dedicated box is used that defeats midi it tracks faster. The problem is midi, whether it translates to/usb or not. Frankly I don’t care if it’s midi or not. But if I can use the guitar as a controller to input midi notes into the computer/DAW/virtual or external instrument, that’s all I need. It’s unbelievable that the technology hasn’t been significantly improved over the last 20-30 years.


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[henryrobinett]

Last time I set up my midi guitar about three years ago, I was not happy with vsts hosted in daws. If I remember right the latency was bothering me. Why that would be different then a midi keys driving a vst I am not sure of.

I personally like a dedicated multitimbral synth for midi guitar stuff. Then again I am trying to create a personal voice/sound not multitracking different instruments.

For writing parts, I just use my keys, all be it, slow and sloppy. (That is the benefit of midi. My synths without midi make me work, but they sound so good).

I was once told, by a number of sources, that a “serious musician must be able to play some piano”. I even watched a debate about if, Miles could play piano or not. If I remember right it was on TV with Kenney Garret and x. (That was during Miles electric soft-ish jazz time. He would wonder over to a synth and hit some notes, it seemed almost random).

All I know is that until I played piano, theory was tricky. Also having some piano skills, makes compositional and midi stuff easier.

I play a little piano. Piano is important to know, but not so much for guitar players. We play chordal instruments. This is mainly for horn players. They gotta know chords. They have got to know how to put harmonies together. My basic piano technique is still too slow. I have a pretty high end recording studio, including a nice grand piano and all kinds of software instruments. If I had a great state of the art guitar controller it’d make studio writing arranging and production go much faster.


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[st.bede]

Cool… dig

… I would check out the nylon string Godin with the midi stuff… in all my limited experiences it seemed to be the most stable, and best tracking…

Roland sounds are cool, and the different hardware they make have the sounds really tightly setup.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Cool… dig… I would check out the nylon string Godin with the midi stuff… in all my limited experiences it seemed to be the most stable, and best tracking

The reason for that is purely mechanical. The sensors are in the bridge saddles - there's so little delay that it's inaudible. The input circuit has to receive enough vibratory information to detect and identify the pitch of the note being played, and piezo detectors in the bridge are stimulated directly and immediately by the strings. But Roland hex pickups are magnetic, so they need to get enough string vibration to both know that a note has been played and identify the pitch. This is the main cause of latency when using GK pickups. It's also the reason that the Ghost bridge saddle systems have no detectable latency.

One trick for reducing latency with GKs is to set the synthesizer an octave lower and play your guitar an octave higher. It takes less time for the system to track pitch as the frequency goes up because there are more full waves at the pickup than there are at low frequencies with longer wavelengths - so the circuitry can identify the pitch faster and get the MIDI info out sooner.

[Degranulator]

Ztar Midi Guitar Controllers Archives - Starr Labs | High Tech MIDI Devices

[kris]

When recording a midi guitar to a DAW, the speed of the computer's processor is certainly also important.

[unknownguitarplayer]

In ancient times I bought a Casio PG-380, which still more or less works. I did A/B comparisons back then (early 90s) and it tracked about as well as the Roland and Yamaha products. If you don't bend strings, have clean picking technique (which you definitely do), and are willing to compensate for latency on the lowest notes, it was a decent tool for note entry.

[henryrobinett]

Ztar Midi Guitar Controllers Archives - Starr Labs | High Tech MIDI Devices

Have you tried this? Seems promising.

[henryrobinett]

When recording a midi guitar to a DAW, the speed of the computer's processor is certainly also important.

I have a very speedy computer with lots of ram.

[Bluedawg]

I still have my old VG-88 somewhere, LOL.

It was a fun toy and I had it set up to make my strat sound like an ES-175 ... or close enough for a jam session.

I still have the pickup on my strat.

The GR-55 looks like a nice update with the VG capabilities combined with a lot more synth options than the old VG systems had. It also takes your standard guitar cable so you can use the effects and amp sims in a more traditional way.

I've been tempted now and then to get one.

Looks like it has midi and USB out. I have no idea how that would work with other midi and USB based systems.

Good Luck

[Bluedawg]

Ztar Midi Guitar Controllers Archives - Starr Labs | High Tech MIDI Devices

Those look like a lot of fun.

I had a Casio keytar that was kind of cool, but it quit working. Standard Casio quality

[ooglybong]

You might want to look into the Brian Moore guitars with their built-in piezo bridge technology. (They also make "ordinary" guitars. lol) These "synth" guitars include the standard 13-pin output but some also include a USB output jack as well. (With some models, the USB output is standard.) I bought a beautifully crafted MIK singlecut some time ago with USA Duncan pickups. Sadly, I've yet to get around to the synth stuff, but it also makes for a great playing and sounding guitar with both the magnetic and acoustic output—again, all that that besides the synth capabilities. IMHO, of course.

Here's part of the writeup regarding my guitar. Don't know if the seller wrote it or copied from Moore's website, but it's accurate info, AFAIK: "...used in conjunction with guitar synth and modeling units such as the Roland GR series, Axon, etc.. The guitar is equipped with an RMC piezo bridge wired to a stereo output jack which, when used with a "y" cable, can split the signal from the jack to an electric guitar amp and a separate acoustic or house PA input for a huge sound. That can then be blended along with the 13 Pin MIDI output connected to any MIDI converter / sound module setup to trigger any synth sound available. The bridge's individual saddles allow configuring patches to split the fretboard, having, for instance, bass on the lower 3 strings and brass on the upper three. The USB port allows computer interfacing with any of today's music creation software. There are onboard bank and program change toggles, along with tone and volume controls for the piezo and humbucker outputs, in addition to a separate volume for the 13 pin MIDI."

I spoke at length to the seller, and he claimed to have used the guitar almost entirely with the USB output for working up original compositions within his DAW, and he claimed that it worked great (er, of course). Just sayin'. Here's a photo of the edge of my guitar with both 13-pin and USB visible. (In case you're wondering, the regular 1/4" jack is uniquely inset into the rear of the guitar.)



Here's Brian Moore's website page showing their models that also include USB output as standard...

i1000SeriesiGuitar.USB

They offer both high quality MIK as well as USA Custom Shop models. AFAIK, their dealers aren't so common nowadays, but there's always some to be found on Reverb or eBay, some for really good deals, IMO.

John Abercrombie was a prominent user of Brian Moore guitars for many years, both with a solidbody singlecut and a really cool signature semi-hollow model. Following his work over the years, he seemed to have moved away from his synth guitar direction back in the early '90s, but his signature guitar still has that capability built-in anyway.

DC1P.13.USB John Abercrombie

Finally, IIRC, Brian Moore can also incorporate their technology into one of your existing guitars via their Cold Spring NY workshop.

Hope this helps.

[Gabor]

I gave up this idea long ago. Now I accept guitar is guitar, keyboard is keyboard. The latency and the otherwise totally hack concept kills the whole thing. Like trying to clap a nail with a screwdriver or trying to screw with hammer. Now I am a happy (amateur) guitar player.